You either shoot straight or you don't...

[searcyD]

sfleinen: you got it backwards....pool players pocket balls very well. pocketing balls has nothing to do with how often a player pots on small pockets. if i'm effiecient with doing the table diagrahms i would layout a payball out that denny played for 200 a ball, with the final ball resting on the endrail. What makes this out so amazing is that, even with ball in hand, your chances of making the ball is not very high...tbc gotta go

 

[showme]

It has nothing to do with aiming... it is a secret in the final stroke when shooting a ball...

It just allows for balls to be pocketed more "cleanly"...if you will....especially when cutting balls...

1on1 is right its all in the backswing!!

 

[CreeDo]

Smarts is definitely underrated. Grip's got a point. Some of what a pro player does is shoot rather routine shots in a very smart order so that the CB can't get hooked, and they have natural angles to break something out, and there's always something waiting to shoot after. They plan better in 8 ball and never get on the wrong side in 9b. Sometimes I will see a botched runout and realize... "I have all the tools to have gotten out here. I just needed to play the shots in a different order. I woulda won this game if I'd looked at the table harder."

PS to willie: I can't wait to read whatever this book is.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,
Very true. We know the same guys:smile:. Unfortunately what you describe has been the traditional thought on "how to get good" and it is NOT a reliable way to get there (though it is possible as evidenced by the many pro's who took that route). This game is freaking difficult...way more difficult than it looks to the players you are describing.

I believe that with proper instruction many of those players could have made it...unfortunately such instruction is very hard to come by, and not widely available. It is such a great game, it is sad that players with such interest could not have been cultivated into great players - in my view the major reason the game is not more popular than it is. It is a game with great initial attraction; but the culture of the game and the hidden difficulty just kill the initial enthusiasm in many potential pool fanatics.

WBM, I would agree that with the right instruction, some of them guys might have gotten further up the mountain. Nonetheless, I would still maintain that no one but the player himself can find their sweet spot, or ideal setup.

What instructor was going to tell Shannon Dalton or Niels Feijen to shoot with the cue off to one side of their head? Which instructor was going to tell Bustamonte that that windmill stroke was maybe not such a good idea? What instructor was going to tell Buddy Hall he gets down too low over the cue, or holds it too close to the end of the butt? Was there a instructor out there that told Mosconi that he stood too upright or shot too fast (no SPF there ? Is there an instructor out there that could have stopped Cowboy Jimmy Moore from using that pretty slip stroke? How many BCA instructors would have told Greenleaf and Hoppe and McCready that that sidearm chicken wing stroke was no good? So tell me: which is the one true path and who is teaching it?

I see students out there all the time who complete their course of instruction with some well-known name and all I see are guys who are setting up and shooting and looking exactly like the instructor. IOW, the instructor has shown them what works for the instructor, as if that *must* work and be optimal for others. Well, no doubt in some cases it does and is. But for many, it dan't. An instructor cannot just cookie cut students in their own image, whether it's a certain stance, a grip, a head position, a follow through or a pause, because -- as one well-known poster here likes to wisely say: it's up to each man to find his own salvation.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jimmyg]

WBM, I would agree that with the right instruction, some of them guys might have gotten further up the mountain. Nonetheless, I would still maintain that no one but the player himself can find their sweet spot, or ideal setup.

What instructor was going to tell Shannon Dalton or Niels Feijen to shoot with the cue off to one side of their head? Which instructor was going to tell Bustamonte that that windmill stroke was maybe not such a good idea? What instructor was going to tell Buddy Hall he gets down too low over the cue, or holds it too close to the end of the butt? Was there a instructor out there that told Mosconi that he stood too upright or shot too fast (no SPF there ? Is there an instructor out there that could have stopped Cowboy Jimmy Moore from using that pretty slip stroke? How many BCA instructors would have told Greenleaf and Hoppe and McCready that that sidearm chicken wing stroke was no good? So tell me: which is the one true path and who is teaching it?

I see students out there all the time who complete their course of instruction with some well-known name and all I see are guys who are setting up and shooting and looking exactly like the instructor. IOW, the instructor has shown them what works for the instructor, as if that *must* work and be optimal for others. Well, no doubt in some cases it does and is. But for many, it dan't. An instructor cannot just cookie cut students in their own image, whether it's a certain stance, a grip, a head position, a follow through or a pause, because -- as one well-known poster here likes to wisely say: it's up to each to find his own salvation.

Lou Figueroa

And who can logically argue with this analysis? k:

Jim

 

[BigDaddyInc.]

dude I'm a c player and I know that. but there is a few things about aiming not in books that the world champs know...wonder why it hasn't been put on paper. I heard from someone that there is only a handful of guys that pockets balls correctly....and they ain't tellin.

You mean you can pocket a ball incorrectly? Truthfully as long as the ball im shooting is pocketed then i've accomplished my goal. And honestly if im feelin it, it being (dead stroke) or somehting close to it, then it's like automatic with very little focus on aiming. It sounds crazy but it's true.

 

[ironman]

I hardly open up any threads on aiming systems. I believe they are for beginners that have a hard time of seeing as to how to hit the correct spot on the object ball. Notice I said how and not where. They know where but for them the problem is the how. One round ball colliding with an other is not that simple for beginners.

Aiming systems work for simple shots. As soon as the shot has some distance and requires spin and speed on the cue ball then many variables now come into play. Variables that only you can develop the instinct for by shooting that shot countless times. This is what makes the game complicated. If aiming systems worked then we would all be champions in no time at all. The thing necessary is good mechanics so that you can have a repeatable stroke so that you can learn from a shot even when you miss it.

What gets you to higher levels is when you can not only pocket the ball but also move the cue ball to a desired location. This will only happen to dedicated players that will put the time in. Practice, practice, practice and then more practice.

If you feel that a system works for you then I suggest you stay with it. I don't want to discourage anyone if they are making progress with some system. The above is just MHO.

IMO this is the best respnse to all this yet! i think he just answered the questions about a stroke too, an abillity to pcket balls and move the cue ball!

I was fortuanate to living near Shreveport when Buddy made the transition from bar tables to big tables. I was amazed at the hours and hours an hours he spent paracticing. He just never seemed to get tired and then one day he was ready, and suddenly in a matter of no tme, "Nobody" wanted to match up with the guy.

he once told me that he thought if he shot 10% straighter he would have given Lassiter the 7 to. I nearly fell to the floor. I asked him if he ever figured out why he didn't and he simply said,"nope"!

Later I saw hime play Wade in Shreveport and Buddy won, but, what a battle and what a contrast in styles. Ifwade saw it, he thought it was supposed to fall. Buddy on the other was so maticulous and position almost flawless. He seemed to always be so close to the object ball and always on the right side of the ball. When they were done, Buddy having grea respect for Wade, said, "I didn't beat him, he wore himself out shooting shooting the lights out!

On the other side of that, I spen tmany years running with Danny Medina when he was scaring the hell out of everyone. Danny thought a safety was for sissy's and went for everything and at one time one of the straightest shooters in the world. I once asked him his secret to shooting so straight and he replied," You have to learn houw to bend the points on the pocket"!! He asked if I understood and I responded," Hell no, I'm happy as hell when they hit the pocket!
He later comented that I was constantly hitting the wrond side of the pocket! After this I never asked him another question!!

So IMO, either yo do or don't and it is usually what seperates them!

 

[ironman]

Bobby,

You and Williebetmore and others are not taking into consideration that there are other factors beside dedicated practice, professional instruction, and other learning tools in the quest to getting to "A" level in pool. I practice regularly EVERYDAY. Hard practice several hours daily. I have had professional instruction. I have many books, video, and other learning tools at my disposal. No matter how bad I would like to reach the "A" level, it cannot happen for me. Why? Two words: Physical limitations. I have poor eyesight (I wear billiard eyeglasses when I shoot). I have poor depth-perception. I have chronic lower lumbar spasms. I have discs in my neck that are in pieces. I have had shoulder surgeries on BOTH shoulders causing loss of range-of-motion in both (shooting a "jacked-up" shot or elevating the cue more than 45 degrees causes pain). I don't know if this affects my poolplaying or not, but I also have a heart arrhythmia, plus my heart is thickened and enlarged (for which I take three prescriptions for). Basically, I'm blind, stiff, and am short of breath and endurance.

So to all you HEALTHY players with lofty aspirations, I say God bless you and wish you all the luck in getting to where you want to go in pool. But those like myself, even with dreams of getting to a high level, it just ain't gonna happen and I've come to terms with it, and I'm sure many others have too.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear :wink:!!!

Maniac

Dam!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[runninracks]

WBM, I would agree that with the right instruction, some of them guys might have gotten further up the mountain. Nonetheless, I would still maintain that no one but the player himself can find their sweet spot, or ideal setup.

What instructor was going to tell Shannon Dalton or Niels Feijen to shoot with the cue off to one side of their head? Which instructor was going to tell Bustamonte that that windmill stroke was maybe not such a good idea? What instructor was going to tell Buddy Hall he gets down too low over the cue, or holds it too close to the end of the butt? Was there a instructor out there that told Mosconi that he stood too upright or shot too fast (no SPF there ? Is there an instructor out there that could have stopped Cowboy Jimmy Moore from using that pretty slip stroke? How many BCA instructors would have told Greenleaf and Hoppe and McCready that that sidearm chicken wing stroke was no good? So tell me: which is the one true path and who is teaching it?

I see students out there all the time who complete their course of instruction with some well-known name and all I see are guys who are setting up and shooting and looking exactly like the instructor. IOW, the instructor has shown them what works for the instructor, as if that *must* work and be optimal for others. Well, no doubt in some cases it does and is. But for many, it dan't. An instructor cannot just cookie cut students in their own image, whether it's a certain stance, a grip, a head position, a follow through or a pause, because -- as one well-known poster here likes to wisely say: it's up to each man to find his own salvation.

Lou Figueroa

Well said...Our brain/hand eye coordination are just not created equal. Some are better than others at having their brain adapt and accept certain results and apply them (i.e. natural talent). Fundamentals help for sure but in the end I don't think there is some secret system as much as letting our brains take control (you have it or you don't). Many may react very well to instruction only because the change in what they were doing before has a very positive effect on the old noggin and they enthusiastically run with it. I believe this is also why in almost all pro sports many athletes thrive as they move from coach to coach. Now that I think about it wish I had a coach....nah, I prefer to be around good players instead:grin:

 

[genomachino]

I know one that works and works well...............

Does anybody else feel this way...??

Sorry but I couldn't resist seeing how 75% of the threads on the front page are about aiming methods that I think are bogus...

I asked two world champions about them last week and they started laughing... Just sayin...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Hi there,

Your thread caught my eye.

I can't speak for anything else out there but just take a peak at the Perfect Aim review. The success speaks for itself.

I just got done giving free Perfect Aim lessons at River Falls, wi for 2 days for Twin States Amusements Regional tournament. The lessons were quick but were very informative and right to the point.

Of the 40 lessons there were 40 very happy pool players.

Give me a call and I will include you in my Perfect Aim review team. After 30 minutes on the phone you will understand how well this works. Then I will send you a video so you can study and work on what you learned.

Most pros don't even know how they aim or how the eyes work. I've talked to many. Believe me I know.

Just give me a call and your answers will be answered. It's as simple as that.

This won't cost you a thing. 715-563-8712

Talk to you soon Geno...............

 

[searcyD]

You mean you can pocket a ball incorrectly? Truthfully as long as the ball im shooting is pocketed then i've accomplished my goal. And honestly if im feelin it, it being (dead stroke) or something close to it, then it's like automatic with very little focus on aiming. It sounds crazy but it's true.

yes i do it all the time, but eventually i will be doing it right as long as i accept that there is a better way and strive to achieve. what makes you think that you're doing it right? and what do you believe to be the correct way? as long as it drops? then you are right. carry on....but I think you got the term "dead stroke" backwards. you think its a place to be after you've gotten out the cold, but thats not dead stroke.

sorry for the double post.....how do you erase posts?

 

[searcyD]

You mean you can pocket a ball incorrectly? Truthfully as long as the ball im shooting is pocketed then i've accomplished my goal. And honestly if im feelin it, it being (dead stroke) or something close to it, then it's like automatic with very little focus on aiming. It sounds crazy but it's true.

yes i do it all the time, but eventually i will be doing it right as long as i accept that there is a better way and strive to achieve. what makes you think that you're doing it right? and what do you believe to be the correct way? as long as it drops? then you are right. carry on....but I think you got the term "dead stroke" backwards. you think its a place to be after you've gotten out the cold, but thats not dead stroke.

 

[sfleinen]

"Exhibit 'A'" of what was discussed in post #65

Hi there,

Your thread caught my eye.

I can't speak for anything else out there but just take a peak at the Perfect Aim review. The success speaks for itself.

I just got done giving free Perfect Aim lessons at River Falls, wi for 2 days for Twin States Amusements Regional tournament. The lessons were quick but were very informative and right to the point.

Of the 40 lessons there were 40 very happy pool players.

Give me a call and I will include you in my Perfect Aim review team. After 30 minutes on the phone you will understand how well this works. Then I will send you a video so you can study and work on what you learned.

Most pros don't even know how they aim or how the eyes work. I've talked to many. Believe me I know.

Just give me a call and your answers will be answered. It's as simple as that.

This won't cost you a thing. 715-563-8712

Talk to you soon Geno...............

Folks:

The above post is "Exhibit 'A'" of what I was talking about in Post #65:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2387310#post2387310

Again, I think we need to take a look at other [more difficult] pocket-based cue sports to find out why pool players, and pool players specifically, look for "cheat codes" in aiming, et al., when really, the problem is in FUNDAMENTALS. Only pool players adopt the loosey-goosey stance where such a basic concept as proper head and eye alignment becomes an actual "issue" (it's not an issue in other pocket-based cue sports).

-Sean

 

[3RAILKICK]

You gotta love it

Bobby,

You and Williebetmore and others are not taking into consideration that there are other factors beside dedicated practice, professional instruction, and other learning tools in the quest to getting to "A" level in pool. I practice regularly EVERYDAY. Hard practice several hours daily. I have had professional instruction. I have many books, video, and other learning tools at my disposal. No matter how bad I would like to reach the "A" level, it cannot happen for me. Why? Two words: Physical limitations. I have poor eyesight (I wear billiard eyeglasses when I shoot). I have poor depth-perception. I have chronic lower lumbar spasms. I have discs in my neck that are in pieces. I have had shoulder surgeries on BOTH shoulders causing loss of range-of-motion in both (shooting a "jacked-up" shot or elevating the cue more than 45 degrees causes pain). I don't know if this affects my poolplaying or not, but I also have a heart arrhythmia, plus my heart is thickened and enlarged (for which I take three prescriptions for). Basically, I'm blind, stiff, and am short of breath and endurance.

So to all you HEALTHY players with lofty aspirations, I say God bless you and wish you all the luck in getting to where you want to go in pool. But those like myself, even with dreams of getting to a high level, it just ain't gonna happen and I've come to terms with it, and I'm sure many others have too.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear :wink:!!!

Maniac

Out of the gate: I admire your attitude and courage. And I believe you play and practice hard to improve because you love this game. I admire that too.

As a sow's ear (and rear end)-I agree with you about recognizing limitations where obstacles are significant.

Maybe we disagree on the definition of an 'A' player-as it relates to at least one wheel chair player that I know of. But- he has unrestricted upper body mobility/ despite the lower body paralysis. He is a rare player-an inspirational player-as are you.

Thanks for posting and for doing something you love.

Take care

 

[CreeDo]

It seems like there's an argument against fundamentals that comes up a lot... it mentions pros who don't have textbook fundamentals. But often there's a reason for their differences.

Keith starting playing from a very early age where he couldn't reach the table and had to sidearm from a high chair. Busty likes to point his tip at the base of the ball (maybe to help sight center ball) and his pump handle action may be a way of pointing the tip at the base during each practice stroke. He also has a visible swoop and I bet he'd be glad to have it eliminated. Mosconi stood upright like a lot of straight pool players... helps you see the table layout better and most of your shots are short anyway. Niels may have one eye that's basically not working 100%, or one eye is strongly dominant.

If a player shoots with a chicken wing for 10 years, it may be counterproductive to tear down their existing stroke and build it back up from nothing. Some learning efficiency is lost fighting old habits. And you would need a fairly knowledgeable instructor to recognize something like a strong dominant eye.

But if you get a 1st year student with a visible chicken wing? Of course you correct that junk He's not keith. He's a kid with a funny stroke. You aren't holding him back by making him shoot in a common sense way with an efficient motion. The whole attitude of "who's to say what's right and what's not?" defeats the purpose of an instructor. The instructor says what's right and what's not, that's why you're paying the guy. That's true in everything, from sports to auto mechanics to learning to read.

 

[searcyD]

But who is judging kieth? if the critique is coming from a person that has an eye for whats right, then I'll buy into that whole sidearm thing being from playing pool at an early age. there are many players that started at a young age that do not remain sidearmed. I don't think it matters all that much anyway. keith ran with florence growing up and probably tried to mimic the champions around him to produce what he has. but that is something only kieth would now, anything else is just a guess.

 

[onepocketron]

No matter what aiming system used.....if you cannot deliver a straight stroke consistently....it don't matter. You can aim a rifle...but if you are twitching and shaking...most likely you aren't going to hit the mark. Even with a scope.
A straight as an arrow reproducable stroke is more important than any aiming system. IMHO.

 

[lfigueroa]

And who can logically argue with this analysis? k:

Jim

oh, just give it a moment or two

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Well said...Our brain/hand eye coordination are just not created equal. Some are better than others at having their brain adapt and accept certain results and apply them (i.e. natural talent). Fundamentals help for sure but in the end I don't think there is some secret system as much as letting our brains take control (you have it or you don't). Many may react very well to instruction only because the change in what they were doing before has a very positive effect on the old noggin and they enthusiastically run with it. I believe this is also why in almost all pro sports many athletes thrive as they move from coach to coach. Now that I think about it wish I had a coach....nah, I prefer to be around good players instead:grin:

I think when it comes to the brain/hand thing, my brain is more saboteur

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

It seems like there's an argument against fundamentals that comes up a lot... it mentions pros who don't have textbook fundamentals. But often there's a reason for their differences.

Keith starting playing from a very early age where he couldn't reach the table and had to sidearm from a high chair. Busty likes to point his tip at the base of the ball (maybe to help sight center ball) and his pump handle action may be a way of pointing the tip at the base during each practice stroke. He also has a visible swoop and I bet he'd be glad to have it eliminated. Mosconi stood upright like a lot of straight pool players... helps you see the table layout better and most of your shots are short anyway. Niels may have one eye that's basically not working 100%, or one eye is strongly dominant.

If a player shoots with a chicken wing for 10 years, it may be counterproductive to tear down their existing stroke and build it back up from nothing. Some learning efficiency is lost fighting old habits. And you would need a fairly knowledgeable instructor to recognize something like a strong dominant eye.

But if you get a 1st year student with a visible chicken wing? Of course you correct that junk He's not keith. He's a kid with a funny stroke. You aren't holding him back by making him shoot in a common sense way with an efficient motion. The whole attitude of "who's to say what's right and what's not?" defeats the purpose of an instructor. The instructor says what's right and what's not, that's why you're paying the guy. That's true in everything, from sports to auto mechanics to learning to read.

Well, yeah. If it's a first or even second or third year student, I agree: give them a starting point. But I thought we were talking about getting someone to low-pro level play, maybe starting with the 10 or 20 or 30 year student, that is not too bad a player already. I think that's where the distinction I was trying to make comes into play.

Lou Figueroa