If the Fargo rating system existed back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, how many of those top Legendary players do you think would have been an 800?

Nice post. I think the primary takeaway is that Fargo is not the best method of comparing players across generations. In the end, it is all about who won the toughest titles on the pool calendar.


Agreed, and I'd go a step farther. I would say that Fargo is weak at comparing across generations. I think that comparing one year to the next is fine (largely the same ecosystem of data), but once we are looking at ten years apart... I have no faith.

To continue the example, SVB in 2015 was apparently 824. These are the players today that are at that or higher. (Which also means that 2026 SVB would give 2015 SVB a game on the wire in a race to 11, or something like that.)
  1. Joshua Filler DEU863
  2. Fedor Gorst USA850
  3. Pin-Yi Ko TWN849
  4. Ping-Chung Ko TWN848
  5. Francisco Sanchez Ruiz ESP846
  6. Shane Van Boening USA846
  7. Aloysius Yapp SGP842
  8. Ameer Ali IRQ842
  9. Jung Lin Chang TWN841
  10. Johann Chua PHL841
  11. Carlo Biado PHL838
  12. Jayson Shaw SCT836
  13. Wojciech Szewczyk POL834
  14. Albin Ouschan AUT833
  15. Eklent Kaci ALB831
  16. Anton Raga PHL831
  17. Quoc Hoang Duong VNM831
  18. Wiktor Zielinski POL831
  19. Naoyuki Oi JPN830
  20. Jonas Magpantay PHL827
  21. Dennis Orcollo PHL827
  22. Kun Lin Wu TWN825
  23. Alex Kazakis GRC825

Highest percentage way to shoot this with BIH, playing Back Pocket 9 Ball

One way to set it up is like I have it in the opening picture. They are close enough that a little bit of jacked up is needed to avoid a double hit. Just a touch.

One could argue putting them closer together increases the accuracy, while jacking up decreases it. That's the crux of my question. Is there an optimal setup?
PS, has anyone here played this game?


my answer would be the distance where you dont have to jack up.
my second answer is i used to play it when 9 ballers would try to gamble with me when they were clearly better
usually they didnt know the game and i would say its like nine ball but the breaker has to call before the break which back pocket is his for the 9 to win the game and i get the other back pocket for the 9 to win
the games ended up like 1 ball onepocket which i knew better than them and often i would beat them when i would definitely lose playing regular 9 ball.
i found at around 650 fargo or so they could more commonly play position to make the 9 in their pocket or make the bank necessary

How do you find your opponent's weakness?

If you need to exploit your opponent somehow, maybe the weakness is yours.


I really like that word exploit. When I played tournaments a little bit, first time any of the well known rack artists used to rack for me the first time I would carefully look over the rack a minute or two. Soon the other player would jump up. "Something wrong?" "No, I am just looking for something to exploit."

Somehow that word had a nasty sound and after that I got very careful racks instead of slug racks they were somewhat famous for.(grin)



Never a bad idea to chase your opponent's weaknesses but as others have suggested, best to clean up your own act first! Shooting too hard and aiming at the wrong place are two common issues.

Are you optimizing the available pocket every shot? Studying your own flaws makes it easier to see the same flaws in others.

Hu

Another mystery cue for the experts!

Thanks for your analysis and advice Chopdoc!

I did notice the grain, but it's parallel after the first 6" so probably why it roles and shoots well. How do you tell synthetic wrap under the coating and why would it make any playing difference? As I said, I actually prefer unwrapped or clear-coated like Meucci. But it has a lot of features beyond a typical cheap cue and I'm curious as to the maker if anyone knows.
How can I tell? I'm a wizard. LOL!

Just experience really. I examine a lot of cues.

Playing difference? With a finish over it there would be no difference.

Those first six inches matter a lot. My wife said so.

The mystery of shaft wood. Excellent shaft wood turned by a master has warped. Cheap shaftwood turned in a sweaty Asian factory has stayed straight.

If the Fargo rating system existed back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, how many of those top Legendary players do you think would have been an 800?

Well, here goes a long brain dump.

There is no objective score for pool, so it's not possible to use that as a baseline for "who is better." For example, the 100m freestyle swim is always 100m. So it's easy to see who is fastest across time. It's fairly objective to say that the best a decade ago was 10 seconds slower than today.

Fargo is a relative rating systems. You "earn" a rating relative to your contemporaries. It's a statistical analysis that I think has some inherent issues, but, overall, it is very good. Undoubtedly the best we've every had.

Consider: Shane in 2015 was the highest rated player at 824 Fargo. Now, he's a 846. And Filler is 860 today. So, a decade ago, would "best in the world" Shane be better or worse than today's #6 Shane, who is 20 points higher rated. And, how would 2015 Shane [best in the world then] compare to today's Filler [best in the world now]. Similarly, is Shane in 2015 (824) the same Fargo "caliber" player as Niels, Capito or Alcaide of today (~820). Fargo across time is weird.

Also, there is no cap for Fargo (as far as I know). And it looks like there has been some inherent inflation of the ratings (Fargo creep, which I think folks disagree with despite the top ranking increase over the last 10 years). That is (rhetorically), why is the best in the world today ago 40 points higher than the best in the world a decade ago? If this could be interpreted as a trendline, then we might see a 40 point drop every decade. This is odd to contemplate because, using this trend, 100 years ago the best-in-the-world would be a ~500 Fargo. While that seems low against today's numbers, against their peers in that era, if 500 was the highest rating you could get, then a 490 would still be world class.

Synthesizing that gibberish, one answer is that there would be no 800 Fargo rated players in the 70s or 80s because 800 Fargo didn't come to be until the middle 2000s and 850 didn't exist until recently. That is, even Shane (or whoever was #1 in 2000) might not even be 800. This isn't a perfect analysis, but you get the idea of one perspective on top Fargo over time.

But maybe you could apply some scaling factor to players in prior eras to put those players in ranked order and then say the top [then] would be 850 [now]. You could get a mapping using today's Fargo numbers, but it would just be for show with little statistical accuracy.

[note: I'm pretty sure Mike discussed using 1000 as a theoretical reference point for someone that is superhumanly dominant along the way. And I think 500 is the anchor point for average pool players. So the middle should stay the middle, but the top might continue to grow. Also, you can't really take the past data of players and insert it into the Fargo db and calculate scores because there would likely be too much statistical error. The number of datapoints would also be very small compared to what we have today].

-td [my two cents. Definitely worth much less]
Nice post. I think the primary takeaway is that Fargo is not the best method of comparing players across generations. In the end, it is all about who won the toughest titles on the pool calendar.

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