Why Are Women Considered Inherently Inferior?

I think the ladies have been proving that they can be competitive in major men's events. We had three women finish in the top 32 in Predator 10 ball event.

Let us not forget Jasmin's 3rd place finish at the World 14.1 Championship.

But unfortunately many people will always find some reason why women are inferior, regardless of what may have been accomplished in the past.
 
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I don't find them inferior in pool one bit. I believe that if they played in the men's tournaments more they would step up their game. I actually think they have the ability to be better than men at this game.

You can take the Predator 10 ball tournament as an example. Out of that large field of great players only a few were women and yet Allison Fisher, Yu Ram Cha and Jasmin Ouschan made it to the single elimination.

I think that it's not if, but when a woman wins one of these tournaments.

I would like to comment on someone that said the women are B players. I've watched Allison and Kelly Fisher rip through local tournaments here against A players. The most I saw an A player win against either of them was to lose 11-3.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I think the ladies have been proving that they can be competitive in major men's events. We had three women finish in the top 32 in Predator 10 ball event.

Let us not forget Jasmin's 3rd place finish at the World 14.1 Championship.

But unfortunately many people will always find some reason why women are inferior, regardless of what may have been accomplished in the past.
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it'd be interesting to know each of those women that did manage to compete with the men. i'd bet they were pushed to win more than they were pushed to be pretty. some families do treat the girls the same as the boys and i'd think that would explain why they had the drive to win
 
I do believe that Jasmin has what it takes to win a tournament stocked with guys. XTP would be my second choice.
 
Scaramouche said:
In this thread

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=142623

Jam writes:

"The women, as hard as they try, as much as they train, as often as they compete with or without the men, I just don't ever see them possessing the same capabilities as the men players."

The mechanics of the stroke have nothing to do with physical size or power, so I am mystified by the position of many here who do not believe that women could compete with men.

Billiards, in many forms, has historically been a male amusement. Hence far more men than women have been exposed to it. And since tournaments have usually been segregated, women compete against a much smaller group of women.

Much has been written here that the way to improvement is competing against better players. Is this tip gender restrictive?
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Because they can't. I think you're just trying to be PC. And please, don't sample one or two tournaments or games when a female plays competitively with men. Or just because Korr plays well in a tourney with men that she can do it all the time.

Over the arc of extended play, women just can't compete. And how many women do you know can draw the cb off a long straight shot? Yes, it's a mystery why women don't do better when the mechanics of the game tell you there's no reason for it. But guess what, they simply don't. End of story.
 
mikepage said:
Reminds me of a Harry Chapin song:


Why did the little girls grow crooked
While the little boys grow tall
The boys were taught to tumble
The girls told not to fall
The girls answered the telephone
The boys answered the call
That's why little girls grew crooked
While the little boys grew tall

Why did the little girls grow crippled
While the little boys grow strong
The boys allowed to come of age
The girls just came along
The girls were told sing harmonies
The boys could all sing songs
That's why little girls grew crippled
While little boys grew strong

Why did the little girls come broken
While the little boys came whole
The little boys were set aflame
The girls told to fan the coals
The boys all told to be themselves
While the girls were told play the roles
That's why little girls came broken
While little boys came whole

Why were the little girls all frightened
To be just what they are
The boys were told to ask themselves
How high how far
The girls were told to reach the shelves
While the boys were reaching stars
That's why little girls were frightened
To be just what they are

And still they bled for us all
As the moon rode the sky
They carried our seed
When our need ran high
They fed all our children
In the night as they cried
Womankind wept
As mankind died

Why were the little girls left hurtin'
When all the boys were done
And the girls left in the moonlight
When the boys went to meet the sun
And when the girls were open
Why had the little all won?
That's why little girls were hurtin'
When the little boys were done

Why did the little girls grow crooked
While the little boys grew tall
It's maybe because the little boys
Didn't ever have to grow up at all
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you making fun of me?
 
LAlouie said:
Because they can't. I think you're just trying to be PC. And please, don't sample one or two tournaments or games when a female plays competitively with men. Or just because Korr plays well in a tourney with men that she can do it all the time.

Over the arc of extended play, women just can't compete. And how many women do you know can draw the cb off a long straight shot? Yes, it's a mystery why women don't do better when the mechanics of the game tell you there's no reason for it. But guess what, they simply don't. End of story.
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I know a woman that can - want to play her HORSE on the pool table for $100 a shot?

There is no mystery. It's called experience and practice. The women on average have much less experience against world class competition and they consequently don't learn and practice all the shots and techniques that world class male players learn and absorb.

Mike Page's example of his DAUGHTER swimming faster than Johnny Weismuller is exactly the answer. More women swimming, plus better techniques coupled with proper practice means that women now are faster and stronger swimmers than men 50 years ago.

I bet if you took the top ten of the WPBA and sent them back in time they would win more tournaments back then than they would today because the ratio of good female players vs. good male players would be much small er then than it is today.

You can just watch film of the WPBA in the mid 90s and compare it to today to see the improvement. What will it be like in another 15 years assuming that more women get in the game and they keep trying like hell to get better?

Ten years ago I would have emptied out betting that no female aside from Jean and Loree Jon would get to five games against any male pro. Now no one will take that bet from me in a race to eleven against the top women.
 
LAlouie said:
Because they can't. I think you're just trying to be PC. And please, don't sample one or two tournaments or games when a female plays competitively with men. Or just because Korr plays well in a tourney with men that she can do it all the time.
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No it doesn't mean she can do it ALL the time. But it does mean that she is capable of winning some of the time. What will happen when there are 20 Karen Corrs coming to each tournament?

What if those 20 Karen Corrs were even better than Karen because they started earlier and gained the same amount of experience against world class competition as men of the same age did?

All we have to go on IS performance results. The FACT is that women can and have won important matches and tournaments. The fact is that 20 years ago this was unheard of except for ONE woman who started at age FOUR and grew up in a pool room.

Now it's becoming more and more common as more and more women are playing and improving as a group.

When a woman wins a race to 11 then the chauvanists will say well she would never win a race to 21 and when she wins that they say well then race to 100 and when she wins that they will say well then play a 10,000 point block over five days.

Why can't anyone who thinks that women are inferior just look at history and see that women are faster stronger and better in just about all sports than they were 50 years ago AND that in a lot of cases they are better now than the MEN were 50 years ago.

Who wouldn't like to take Anika Sorrenstam back in time and bet everything on her in match play back then against the men?
 
As far as women having less stamina than men...I think not. It always amazed me that right after good sex that the woman would get up tear around the house doing housework, cooking, cleaning, maybe go out and run 3 miles, while the guy couldn't get out of bed for an hour or so. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
As far as women having less stamina than men...I think not. It always amazed me that right after good sex that the woman would get up tear around the house doing housework, cooking, cleaning, maybe go out and run 3 miles, while the guy couldn't get out of bed for an hour or so. Johnnyt
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Orgasmically narcoleptic.
 
JB Cases said:
I know a woman that can - want to play her HORSE on the pool table for $100 a shot?

There is no mystery. It's called experience and practice. The women on average have much less experience against world class competition and they consequently don't learn and practice all the shots and techniques that world class male players learn and absorb.

Mike Page's example of his DAUGHTER swimming faster than Johnny Weismuller is exactly the answer. More women swimming, plus better techniques coupled with proper practice means that women now are faster and stronger swimmers than men 50 years ago.

I bet if you took the top ten of the WPBA and sent them back in time they would win more tournaments back then than they would today because the ratio of good female players vs. good male players would be much small er then than it is today.

You can just watch film of the WPBA in the mid 90s and compare it to today to see the improvement. What will it be like in another 15 years assuming that more women get in the game and they keep trying like hell to get better?

Ten years ago I would have emptied out betting that no female aside from Jean and Loree Jon would get to five games against any male pro. Now no one will take that bet from me in a race to eleven against the top women.
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That's a false sense of reasoning because your assumption is that women will progress at a pace ad infintum and eventually catch up. If women's basketball has made great progress in their skill do you really think they're "closing the gap" between them and the men.

Yes,,,women do not focus on the sport. It's funny when I read about some women saying they spend hours upon hours upon hours practicing when I know for a fact they spend a lot of their time in the pool room(if they're even in the poolroom) goofing off. But there are also some elite women who DO practice tons and have so for years and if they competed soley in the men's group for a few years they'd have to find another job.

AWESOME CASE, BTW.
 
just a stray thought

One rule of competition is that a person rarely rises to a level greater than needed to beat their competition if they can rise to that level. There are exceptions to that rule but they are few and far between. With the rising level of competition the women are facing both in their own events and by entering men's events it might force them to step things up a notch or two.

I still suspect we will see a lady win a world class event within twenty years or less. The young ladies are tougher than ever and will only improve with seasoning.

Hu
 
LAlouie said:
That's a false sense of reasoning because your assumption is that women will progress at a pace ad infintum and eventually catch up. If women's basketball has made great progress in their skill do you really think they're "closing the gap" between them and the men.

Yes,,,women do not focus on the sport. It's funny when I read about some women saying they spend hours upon hours upon hours practicing when I know for a fact they spend a lot of their time in the pool room(if they're even in the poolroom) goofing off. But there are also some elite women who DO practice tons and have so for years and if they competed soley in the men's group for a few years they'd have to find another job.

AWESOME CASE, BTW.
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Women's basketball is a great example. In less than 40 years we have gone from no women's basketball at all to having a Women's NBA that fills stadiums. On a technical level the average skill of a serious competitive woman basketball player is as close to the skill of men as it has ever been. Now if one assumes that male basketball players have peaked as far as human performance goes in this sport - and women have not yet caught them - then one has to assume that women still have room to get better and thus to close the gap. Now basketball happens to be a sport where size and speed and strength matter much more than pool so on average women cannot make up for the difference in physiology for the aspects of the game whose performance relies on being taller and able to jump higher.

In pool it's the same. In the last 50 years we have gone from women playing pool being a novelty to it being a recognized professional sport. Serious competitive women 50 years ago were a tiny percentage of serious competitive players. Now it's not uncommon to find group of women forming their own league teams to compete with the guys in the local leagues. Women filling fields of 128 players and playing for $20,000 first prizes? How about the fact that every weekend there are actually qualifier tournaments that draw 30 players or so each around the country to feed the WPBA with players?

I don't know how long you have been around the game but I have been in it for 25 years. In that time I have seen the women's game improve tremendously. Every top player knows it as well. Which is why you see the women taking down matches, not just one, like Jean Balukas, but many who win important matches against top players. Which is why you see women winning tournaments like Karen Corr on the Joss Tour that they would never have been able to entertain the slightest fantasy of winning in the past. (with the exception of Jean Balukas). If this isn't evidence of closing the gap then I don't know what is.

Can the men get even better than they currently are? In pool I believe that the can. I think that in general pool player's kicking and carom games are just adequate when compared to carom player's knowledge of that aspect, I think that their pocketing is not as sharp as snooker players nor is their touch as deft as snooker players. But I think that the skill set that most of the top players possess is at a peak considering the circumstances that they have available to grow their games. They play pool to get better and learn all that they need to know to be the best at the games they choose to play.

So with that today's male professional is at his peak in terms of skill and knowledge without some sea change in how he approaches the game. In other words you don't see a Johnny Archer taking a year off of pool to go to Europe and train under the world's best Carom players.

The women still have a ways to go to reach where the men are at now for all the reasons I previously listed. But it's not as if men and women are getting better at the same pace and so there will always be the same gap. Men are either peaked or increasing their skill slowly while women as a group are getting better and better.

Perhaps there is some mystical cosmic reason or some biological and chemical reason why men will always be better at pool than women as a group. I don't see it and the evidence shows that as a group women are catching up.
 
If we picked the best female basketball players living and sent them back in time 50 years ago would they beat the best male team then playing? I know NOTHING of basketball when I ask this question? If the answer is yes then that shows that women are not inherently inferior to men.

To the women I say this. 14.1 is a game that does not rely on the break. Please try and post up some 200+ ball runs in the coming year. Show us that you can do it. I know you can, I beleive in you. Prove it to yourself and everyone else.
 
Basketball isn't a fair comparison, since body size plays such a huge part in the game. The best women basketball players may be in the 6'2" range, tall for a woman, but no where near the men who often push 7'. The only advantage that would give to a pool player would be they may not need to grab the mechanical bridge quite as often.

I think women could compete with men, if they were willing to put in the effort. I play in a weekly tournament here in town. Now we are not playing at a professional level, but the 32 players each week is a reasonable representation of players in our area. We have about 8 ladies who are regulars, and 4 or 5 of them have as much chance of winning as any of the male players.

It's all about individual desire and motivation. As an instructor, I can tell you that over 80% of the students who come to me to try and improve their game are males. That tells me that there are either a lot less females playing the game, or that are as serious as their male counterparts are when it comes to doing whatever it takes to reach their full potential.

Steve
 
Men have zero advantage over women in pool....they have the opportunity to start at the same age, practice just as many hours a day, and the field of play is exactly equal.....their are top male players that are scrawny, weigh maybe 140 pounds soaking wet, and they can dominate....I refuse to believe any bs that men are inherently better....and regarding the break, the top female pros crush the balls.....and there are men out there that dominate with a simple, controlled break, and not the typical power break....99% of shots are made with a easy, smoothe stroke....

If this was football or basketball, I can see an inherent physical advantage regarding body types and size, but regarding pool, I just ain't buying it.....hell, we got a lot of great female players in the DFW area that compete with guys in tournaments every week....and half of them break stronger than I do :D
 
CaptainJR (2006) said:
We all know the answer to this question. I don't understand why everyone is beating around the bush about it.

Practice is the issue here. Let's say we have a girls age 15 and a boy age 15 both just starting to play pool. The girl is already at a 4 to 7 year disadvantage. That young lad has been practicing stroking for at least that long. He's getting the repetitive rhythm and timing down and toning those muscles. We aren't talking about just occasionally either. This is nearly constant. You just can't expect a girl to play pool better than a guy after this kind of training.
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LOL.

All jokes aside, boys do get more physical training at an early age than girls do, and that makes a real difference in how quickly they learn to play pool and in how good they can get at it. Strength itself doesn't matter much, but other physical qualities like coordination, timing, precision, stamina, are important.

pj
chgo
 
I see this discussion going nowhere, as you and I assume different sides of this "advancement of women" as an argument. You're assuming men have peaked and women not. Why do you assume the men have peaked??? I don't get this.

And this explanation of women today playing as well as men eons ago as a validation that women are competitive is equally nonsensical. The question is why aren't women competitive with men....not why aren't women competitive with men 3 decades ago(or in the case of basketball 5 decades ago). And to extrapolate the development of women in pool(sports) to being competitive with men has no logic. These are two totally different statements. I will gladly grant you that women in sports are much better than they were eons ago,,,,I will not grant you that that makes them competitive with men. Of course when I say "competitive", I don't mean once in a while, I mean consistantly.

They have been saying for decades now that women are better built for marathons than men.....I'm still waiting. Now here's a sport that women have been participating for decades, that they have equall access to the sport, and they are supposedly better built for the sport.

Who knows why things are as they are,,,they simply are.

JB Cases said:
Women's basketball is a great example. In less than 40 years we have gone from no women's basketball at all to having a Women's NBA that fills stadiums. On a technical level the average skill of a serious competitive woman basketball player is as close to the skill of men as it has ever been. Now if one assumes that male basketball players have peaked as far as human performance goes in this sport - and women have not yet caught them - then one has to assume that women still have room to get better and thus to close the gap. Now basketball happens to be a sport where size and speed and strength matter much more than pool so on average women cannot make up for the difference in physiology for the aspects of the game whose performance relies on being taller and able to jump higher.

In pool it's the same. In the last 50 years we have gone from women playing pool being a novelty to it being a recognized professional sport. Serious competitive women 50 years ago were a tiny percentage of serious competitive players. Now it's not uncommon to find group of women forming their own league teams to compete with the guys in the local leagues. Women filling fields of 128 players and playing for $20,000 first prizes? How about the fact that every weekend there are actually qualifier tournaments that draw 30 players or so each around the country to feed the WPBA with players?

I don't know how long you have been around the game but I have been in it for 25 years. In that time I have seen the women's game improve tremendously. Every top player knows it as well. Which is why you see the women taking down matches, not just one, like Jean Balukas, but many who win important matches against top players. Which is why you see women winning tournaments like Karen Corr on the Joss Tour that they would never have been able to entertain the slightest fantasy of winning in the past. (with the exception of Jean Balukas). If this isn't evidence of closing the gap then I don't know what is.

Can the men get even better than they currently are? In pool I believe that the can. I think that in general pool player's kicking and carom games are just adequate when compared to carom player's knowledge of that aspect, I think that their pocketing is not as sharp as snooker players nor is their touch as deft as snooker players. But I think that the skill set that most of the top players possess is at a peak considering the circumstances that they have available to grow their games. They play pool to get better and learn all that they need to know to be the best at the games they choose to play.

So with that today's male professional is at his peak in terms of skill and knowledge without some sea change in how he approaches the game. In other words you don't see a Johnny Archer taking a year off of pool to go to Europe and train under the world's best Carom players.

The women still have a ways to go to reach where the men are at now for all the reasons I previously listed. But it's not as if men and women are getting better at the same pace and so there will always be the same gap. Men are either peaked or increasing their skill slowly while women as a group are getting better and better.

Perhaps there is some mystical cosmic reason or some biological and chemical reason why men will always be better at pool than women as a group. I don't see it and the evidence shows that as a group women are catching up.
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