I must spread it around first... Trust me, mucho rep to you regardless for that one!
Efren Reyes NOT allowed to play the Qatar 9-ball Open by the WPA
- Thread starter Roy Steffensen
- Start date
I must spread it around first... Trust me, mucho rep to you regardless for that one!
One more little P.S. It IS my playground! I have organized events! I have put up money! I did make the rules! I was here before anyone ever heard of these guys. Maybe I sound a little like Grady here, except no one owes me anything. Whatever I got, I earned!
As long as I'm around, I will continue to demand fair play and a level playing field. FOR EVERYONE! If these guys are not up to the task, then maybe they should be replaced. JMHO as always. :thumbup:
Roberto Gomez got 2nd place in the World 9-ball Championships in 2007 against a field of the best pool players in the world. Probably the last truly complete field at a WPA event with the best players represented. When you do that you would think that maybe you might get the benefit of the doubt. But alas, it is not about skill, talent, or what you have won. The political posturing in the game right now is going to hurt the players, the WPA, and the game itself for decades to come. The last thing this game needed was this kind of crap, the game was already on it's last legs and now the excitement in these events is low because the field is incomplete and the battles people want to see cannot take place. As a pool player and fan even I am sick of it and don't want to bother tuning in anymore.
I understand that Jay. You know that. And when it's your events you do make the rules. You know as well as anyone that the billiard world is quite fragmented.
Barry Behrman doesn't allow women in his event. His rules - his playground.
There is not any entity in the billiard world that is strong enough to enforce it's will on all promoters.
The WPA however is one entity that has been around for 20 years and which has more or less been consistent in how they structure their events and apply their sanctioning. Even at that they are at the mercy of promoters in a lot of ways.
I haven't read all the replies so I hope that you weren't taking this as a shot at you. I am merely presenting the WPA's side of it as pertains to their structure and what their charter allows in regards to national members of the WPA.
Look, I have been and will continue to be critical of the WPA. But let's all try to be fair a little bit and step back and try and look at it from their side.
The WPA is an organization that is there to to try and standardize pocket billiards around the world. It is not there to decide who the best players are nor is it there to provide a tour or a living for pool players. It was started with one goal and that was to standardize pool around the world to satisfy the International Olympic Committee's requirements for inclusion into the Olympics.
Now the WPA has continued to try and standardize pool - (an impossible task) - and has set up a series of events to be used as ranking events in order to have some sort of world ranking list that is performance based on a set series of events.
As such though the WPA MUST rely on the member nations to nominate players for the events at least in the beginning so that a world ranking can be established. Once a world rank IS established then the top players are AUTOMATICALLY granted spots regardless of whether their home country wants to give them spots or not.
As long as they are in good standing, i.e. a MEMBER of their home country's organization. That of course can be sticky in itself as it's entirely possible that someone can "lose" a person's yearly application or record of paid dues but that's another issue.
The point is that they have to make rules that respect all players and organizations equally or in the end they have nothing.
I know who he is and who the other top players are. Before that event however he wasn't known to any but a handful of people. Ronnie Alcano won the WPC starting from a qualifier.
The political posturing is already hurting the game and the players.
For one thing all the BMPAP players could have played in the Phillipine Open. Someone in Shanghai who was also in Manila for the 10 Ball made the comment to me that they didn't understand why the BMPAP wouldn't play in the tournament and take Makabenta's money and use it against him. Surely the top Filipinos would have easily swept the top spots and taken most of the money out of the event.
I understand that Chua, Fajardo, and Makabenta are on a power trip. I understand that they have played all sorts of games to make life hard on the players that don't kiss their feet. What I don't understand is why the players don't get in his tournaments and steal the money and then use it to further their own goals. But beyond that if all that is required to play in INTERNATIONAL events is to sign a membership form and pay a small fee and the president of the WPA is there to witness that no one's form and dues get lost then WHY NOT DO IT????
Everything else aside the WPA has done what it could to help the BMPAP players get to the world stage and the managers have kept them back.
We all ***** about the lack of structure in the game. Then when there is an organization that has a structure and rules and has held them for 20 years we ***** when that organization won't make exceptions for our favorite players.
In fact there are things called promoter's exemptions. Earl Strickland has played in a few World Championships on a promoter's exemption when he was not nominated by the BCA because his ranking in the USA wasn't high enough. I am sure that if the promoter at Quatar wanted Efren then Efren would be there. Outside of that however even Efren has to respect the way the thing is setup and realize that it applies to all players all over the world.
Until the players from around the world unite and stand up for themselves they will continue to be pawns of organizations and promoters.
Some promoters will treat them better than others. Ultimately though no one player is bigger than any one event.
Jay I think that there is more to the story than either of us realize.
Of course I know who Gomez and Corteza are. Ronnie Alcano however didn't get an automatic spot in the WPC even though he was number one on the Joss Tour.
Of course the WPA could finagle a spot for BMPAP players in the events they sanction. What happens then when similar situations occur in other places around the world? What happens if Niels Feijen is then not nominated for a spot - should the WPA then just grant him a spot? Surely you can see where this goes.
My point is that we need a NEW way of handling this that is NOT tied to country. The WPA needs to have a new class of member for professionals. This would solve most of the issues here.
As it stands however once they start making exceptions for Efren then those exceptions have to also be there for any of the rest of the world's elite players when those players don't want to play by the rules of their national organization.
We have been here before on 'The World 10 Ball Silence' thread. But the thread is no longer available.
All that has happened is that John (JB Cues) has moved a little (quite a lot really) into the WPA camp and Jay Helfert has gone in the other direction.
But I'm with Jay on this one
I'm with JB Cues on this one. It is obvious that JB better understands the WPA system than Jay does.
Rules are made to be obeyed. No APBU membership , no playing in tournaments. Plain and simple as that.
I don't think that the problem is with the WPA rules or system but with the way the accept members and same goes to the regional organization such as the EPBF and their way of accepting countries members.
It is not enough to be the first who register or the one who pays more or who has a longer list of players or clubs as members. The members should be examined an reevaluated on a decided time periods. Sometimes a body looses it powers and if another better and stronger body exists then it should be considered as a replacement (once it met the needed criteria).
This way the WPA can make sure that the most suitable organizations and players would front the world of pool.
But let's face it, the WPA has turned into a political and business body that I'm not sure that pool's best interest is their interest....
The WPA purpose of existence is to promote pool and get it into the Olympics. So far it failed on both...
In order to promote a sport you have to make sure that the very best sportsman will be out there playing.
To promote a sport is to bring it to the masses but who really cares about some nameless players (who could be great), the public wants to see it's heroes!
How do you expect to get TV coverage like that and draw in sponsors? It looks like we have less of these then we had 10 years ago...
Matchroom sports had wildcards for the WPC so Earl Strickland and Corey Deuel (who were not "in good standings" with the UPA) could play because Matchroom knew that the crowed wants to see Earl.
In a perfect world, what JB offered that they should join the BSCP and fight it from inside is great but in the real world when people are getting killed for speaking their mind it won't help.
I'm concerned with a statement that was made here about that there is a lot of money involved which makes the Philippines matter so delicate.
What money????
We are always led to believe that there is no money in pool....
we see pros playing $700 tournaments.... somebody is getting ripped off here...
It is not enough to be the first who register or the one who pays more or who has a longer list of players or clubs as members. The members should be examined an reevaluated on a decided time periods. Sometimes a body looses it powers and if another better and stronger body exists then it should be considered as a replacement (once it met the needed criteria).
This way the WPA can make sure that the most suitable organizations and players would front the world of pool.
But let's face it, the WPA has turned into a political and business body that I'm not sure that pool's best interest is their interest....
The WPA purpose of existence is to promote pool and get it into the Olympics. So far it failed on both...
In order to promote a sport you have to make sure that the very best sportsman will be out there playing.
To promote a sport is to bring it to the masses but who really cares about some nameless players (who could be great), the public wants to see it's heroes!
How do you expect to get TV coverage like that and draw in sponsors? It looks like we have less of these then we had 10 years ago...
Matchroom sports had wildcards for the WPC so Earl Strickland and Corey Deuel (who were not "in good standings" with the UPA) could play because Matchroom knew that the crowed wants to see Earl.
In a perfect world, what JB offered that they should join the BSCP and fight it from inside is great but in the real world when people are getting killed for speaking their mind it won't help.
I'm concerned with a statement that was made here about that there is a lot of money involved which makes the Philippines matter so delicate.
What money????
We are always led to believe that there is no money in pool....
we see pros playing $700 tournaments.... somebody is getting ripped off here...
I don't think that principle works well in Philippine politics. The maturity of the politics in Philippines is stunted. If the fight happens in the inside, you will end up with a bigger mess of gazillion BSCP factions claiming to be the one. Even if the old power lose, they will not gently give it away.
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I haven't "moved" into anyone's camp. I just don't like the discussions to be one sided. When Edwin was alive and participating here I played devil's advocate to his assertions as well.
Unless we are one of the parties involved and have attended the meetings we really don't know what is going on and can only speculate and comment from the outside.
This is why I chose to ask Mr. Tu outright about the situation with Wu Chia Ching an dask Ian Anderson outright what the WPA is doing about the Philippine situation.
In addition there are others who do have more inside information about various things who will not post that information here out of fear or prudence. I won't repeat certain things either because A. I have no verification and B. it could tend to make things worse. The point is though is that there is a lot - and I mean a lot of things that most of us don't know that complicates the situation.
I have no reason to suspect that Ian Anderson or Mr. Tu are lying to me about their version of events and the activities that they have undertaken in their organizations to address the hot-button issues going on right now.
I do find it interesting that even though I didn't lay out in detail some of the things I was told that they have done I am being told that they are lying to me.
So we would would prefer to make speculations and accusations and demonize the WPA instead of focusing on the parties involved - those being the BMPAP and the Makebenta clique and urging them to figure it out.
Apparently there IS a lot more to this than JUST a dispute between these two groups. Apparently the Phillipine Olympic Committee and other organzations are involved in meddling with various sports including billliards to the detriment of harmony in those sports. Nothing is as cut and dried as some would portray it here.
Edwin Reyes died due to his involvement in this fiasco. He died fighting what he thought was the good fight. The tragedy in all this is that his ideals will probably be trampled on no matter which side is victorious.
That is my whole point about the BMPAP not allowing their players to play when a door was opened to them by the WPA. In that case it's not Makabenta who is stopping the players from playing.
With all due respect your statements are not accurate. You have no idea what the WPA is now in relation to what it was when it started. You don't really understand their mandate at all nor how things really work in an organization like this.
The thing is that in the history of pool and well pretty much all sports the "dirty work" of organizing and administrating organizations to "govern" the sport are not done by the people who benefit most. They are most often done by people who have a passion for the game and who volunteer their time and effort to organize the sport. In pool that is a daunting task given the fractured nature of pool around the world.
It's natural that decisions made by the "WPA" will be criticized by those who don't understand what the WPA is there for. The thing is that the WPA is pretty powerless outside it's own system. The APA/BCAPL/TAP/VNEA with over 300,000 members doesn't conform to WPA rules, support the WPA in any way, pay any sanction fees to the WPA or otherwise help the WPA to promote the idea that pool should played the same way around the world.
So the WPA plows along under the system they set up which essentially mirrors soccer's. They expect every organization under the WPA umbrella to abide by the charter and the rules and in turn they try and set up world events where all these member nations can send their nominated players.
They can't be expected to meddle in any particular country's affairs just as the US Government is not expected to meddle in the affairs of any particular state. Now in my view - there SHOULD be a way for dissenters to bring grievances to the the continental member and then to appeal to the world body if needed. And there may be something like this in place.
My particular gripe is that the WPA was NOT set up to handle the issues of professional players. Therefore the amateur level and the professional level are mixed in through out the organization and that clouds the issue.
So in the Philippines you have one group that is comprised of the managers who have groups of players under their management - these players are clearly "professionals" and you have another group whose members are primarily amateurs. It's easy enough to see that the professionals don't want to be under the thumb of the amateur governing body.
In no other sport do you have the professionals being governed by the amateur body. Not that I know of.
In pool however this is what you have in the form of the WPA. People who play pool for a living are being governed by an organization whose mandate DOES NOT include providing a way for those players to earn a living. Having said that the WPA IS trying to do just that though through their World Tour events. They are trying to stitch together enough events with a minimum prize fund and consistent rules so that there is some dependability for the professional players around the world.
So before you go off on what the WPA is or is not it would be helpful if you truly understood what is happening behind the scenes. I know from my conversation with Ian Anderson that it's a lot more than most of us know about.
I haven't had time to read all the replies, and unfortunately I don't have time to read them right now either. But I have to give a short reply from what I have read.
1. I know Ian Andersson haven't talked to the players, but I have talked to some of them. It is absolutely NOT the managers that are forcing them to stay in the BMPAP, this is absolute voluntarily. If Ian Andersson is claiming that the players are being forced, he is absolutely wrong. Perhaps he should take a trip to Manila and talk to the players instead of talking so much with Yen Makabenta.
2. Why should the players in BMPAP work inside the BSCP, as JB said? Well, the court of laws in Philippines have already said that the BSCP is not to be reckognised as the governing body for pro pool players in the Philippines. BSCP/Yen is trying their case in a higher court, but as long as this dispute is going on the ONLY CORRECT thing the WPA should do, is to allow players from BOTH camps to compete at the World Tour untill the results in the supreme court is final.
As of now, the BSCP isn't considered the correct organisation by Philippine law, so if WPA should only choose to favour one of the organisations, like they do know, it shouldn't be the BSCP and Yen Makabenta, imo.
1. I know Ian Andersson haven't talked to the players, but I have talked to some of them. It is absolutely NOT the managers that are forcing them to stay in the BMPAP, this is absolute voluntarily. If Ian Andersson is claiming that the players are being forced, he is absolutely wrong. Perhaps he should take a trip to Manila and talk to the players instead of talking so much with Yen Makabenta.
2. Why should the players in BMPAP work inside the BSCP, as JB said? Well, the court of laws in Philippines have already said that the BSCP is not to be reckognised as the governing body for pro pool players in the Philippines. BSCP/Yen is trying their case in a higher court, but as long as this dispute is going on the ONLY CORRECT thing the WPA should do, is to allow players from BOTH camps to compete at the World Tour untill the results in the supreme court is final.
As of now, the BSCP isn't considered the correct organisation by Philippine law, so if WPA should only choose to favour one of the organisations, like they do know, it shouldn't be the BSCP and Yen Makabenta, imo.
Re #1. Would you bite that hand that feeds you?
You know this? And how do you you know who Ian Anderson has talked to and who he hasn't? I am sure that you have very little idea what sorts of meetings and negotiations have really gone on.
I didn't say that the players should abdicate the BMPAP. I said that IF they want to play in the WPA events then they MUST adhere to the WPA system - it's as simple as that. If they want to protest by NOT being members of the national organization that IS recognized by the WPA then that is their choice and we shouldn't complain when they are not allowed to play. It's pretty simple really. If you want to overthrow the system from without then don't expect to be included in the events that are put on by the organization you are fighting against.
The WPA went out of their way to make a NEW RULE that would allow the BMPAP players to play in WPA events EVEN IF THE BSCP didn't nominate them. The BMPAP players refused to take advantage of it.
I am sorry but on one hand you have reports that the BSCP held some elections and new officers were voted in, BMPAP friendly ones, and then you are saying that there is some court decision saying that the BSCP isn't even allowed to represent pool in the Phillipines? Which is it? In fact we have no idea what the real true story is and how this will all play out.
So if I create a new splinter group to challenge the BCA in the USA then the only fair thing for the WPA to do would be to allow "my" players to play in their events as well? Or perhaps a group to challenge the Deutsche Billard Union?
It really sucks that Efren and company are excluded from playing in WPA events. It's their choice as you say. The cost of protest is high. The cost of fighting the good fight is high.
It is however unfair to put all the onus on the WPA and say that they should choose and that they should allow the protesting players to play.
My question to you Roy is why go to the trouble of holding an "election" for new BSCP officers IF you don't intend to be a member of the BSCP? And how can you vote in such an election if you refuse to be a member?
Lastly can you provide the relevant court decisions and timelines to prove what you say about the BSCP being banned from representing Phillipine pool?
I want to be prefectly clear that I am not anti-player here. I think that the ideals that Edwin Reyes died for are worth carrying on. It is my contention that until the PLAYERS - not the managers - but JUST the players stand up for themselves worldwide then they will continue to be pawns in other people's games.
There are 2 BSCPs per se in the Philippines...
#1 Headed by Arturo Ilagan
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=136995
#2 Headed by Sebastian Chua
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=140662
#1 recognized by POC (Philippine Olympic Committee), while #2 is not.
http://www.olympic.ph/
http://www.olympic.ph/nsas/billiards.html
#2 recognized by WPA, while #1 is not.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member_list
(Under APBU, select the country "Philippines". It still shows Ernesto Fajardo. WPA should update it's info.)
Both claiming to be the legit BSCP.
#1 Headed by Arturo Ilagan
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=136995
#2 Headed by Sebastian Chua
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=140662
#1 recognized by POC (Philippine Olympic Committee), while #2 is not.
http://www.olympic.ph/
http://www.olympic.ph/nsas/billiards.html
#2 recognized by WPA, while #1 is not.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member_list
(Under APBU, select the country "Philippines". It still shows Ernesto Fajardo. WPA should update it's info.)
Both claiming to be the legit BSCP.