What's wrong with pool? Look no further than NCIS 14.1championship

[Roy Steffensen]

That's subject to abuse. As the time limit nears, the player who is ahead can stall, take a break, etc. -- anything to keep his opponent from getting to the table and catching up.

Steve,

I have never heard of a shot clock or time limit only applying to one player. With one extension per rack when are you going to use it? You need more than thirty seconds when you first go into the pile hard if you choose to. If you need to create a break ball later you may be wishing for more than thirty seconds then too. There is no good solution except a gentleman's agreement to not bog play down and we all know that a gentleman's agreement is not enough.

A thought I like is an automatic one and a half or two minute period the first time a player comes to the table in a rack and one optional extension of double the standard time period. I would probably stretch the time clock to 45 seconds for straight pool too. I'd rather err on the side of a little extra time than too little knowing that most shots will take far less than the maximum time.

I caught several of your matches and enjoyed them all. Thanks!

Hu

In Norwegian tournaments we don't use shot-clock in 14-1, but before the tournament starts the organizer decides a certain amount of innings which is maximum a player can have in a match. Normally that is 30 innings when amateurs are playing.

Whatever the score is after 30 innings, the player with most points win.

I think that is a good rule and could easily be done for professionals too.

 

[Big Perm]

There is no reason that a tournament consisting of good to excellent players should have taken this long. There is just no excuse for a match to 150 taking almost five hours. That's almost 300 minutes, which worked out to almost exactly a minute per ball. A MINUTE PER BALL, AMONGST TOP-FLIGHT PLAYERS. Complete madness.

- Steve

Well said....when slow play stalls the entire room and tournament for 2-3additional hours, that is rediculous...

Hu, I am a fan of deliberate and smart play.....but I think there is a line where you have to be considerate of the other player, as well as the other players in a tourney.....after a break, taking a minute to scan the table and plan a runout is smart.....taking 5 minutes is unbearable....playing somebody for fun, I'd simply unscrew after the 4th minute, tell them I'll just grab my own table and practice....

I've been on the unbearable end of a 1 hour race to 3 in 9-ball, and an almost 2 hour race to 7 in 10-ball.....both of them held up tournies, over 20 people waiting forever for a single match....

 

[selftaut]

In my opinion, the only rule that should be employed is a shot clock at the tournament director's discretion. It should be a 30 second clock with one extension per rack. But... it should be employed fairly. We almost always know which of the two players is taking too long - it should be only THAT player who has to abide by the shot clock. In the cases where both players are approximately the same level of slow, it should be utlized for both players.

I am not in favor of single-elimination. There is no reason that a tournament consisting of good to excellent players should have taken this long. There is just no excuse for a match to 150 taking almost five hours. That's almost 300 minutes, which worked out to almost exactly a minute per ball. A MINUTE PER BALL, AMONGST TOP-FLIGHT PLAYERS. Complete madness.

- Steve

I remember this also happening in (I think) the worlds as well a few years ago, I think it was Max Eberle and Thorston if I remember correctly, like 4 1/2 hours. Just goes to show you that it can and will happen unless something is in place to prevent it. What I implemented in Atlantic City this year worked pretty well. At 2 hours I put them both on a warning to double the pace, then monitored the match, if they were not moving fast enough then they got a 20 second shot clock, once the shot clock was on then they had one 3 minute time out with any previous time outs that may have remained wiped out, thats it. I can tell you what it did was speed up the matches right from the get go as nobody wanted to be on the clock, I actually only had 2 matches go over and I let them go without the shot clock because they picked up the pace and were close to the end and didn't hinder the pace of the tourney. So just implementing the rules for pace of play worked from the get go, where last year I had some 4 hour matches.

Kev

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

It's very simple - this is what you do:


The allotted amount of time for a game should be the average. For 150 points, we'll say it's two hours (not sure this is accurate but going with it). If a match exceeds that allotted by 50% (3 hours), both players are issued a warning and their times are entered into a log. If there are three offenses, you eject the player from the tournament. If his overall average exceeds the allotted time by 75% (3 hours, 30 minutes) at any point, he's ejected from the tournament.

The other thing you can do is simply say, "You're slow. One more match over 3 hours and you're done."


This weekend's tournament was a small enough field that the TD was able to manage the play well but for larger events, shot clocks are nearly impossible to employ. You have your start time, your end time and that's that. Tell both those guys to report the score by end time and there won't be a problem.

 

[Salamander]

Jeff played pretty well to win that qualifier. I will concede that he is not the top straight pool player in the state but he won the tournament and deserved to go, IMO.

You can't beat him

Absolutely he deserved to go. But you can't tell me Alex, that 7 players is a good turnout to determine who goes to a national level tournament.

As far as my beating him, I've never run over 3 balls in my life. I'd fold like a wet dollar bill.

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

Absolutely he deserved to go. But you can't tell me Alex, that 7 players is a good turnout to determine who goes to a national level tournament.

As far as my beating him, I've never run over 3 balls in my life. I'd fold like a wet dollar bill.

No, I agree overall. I just took the oportunity to yank your chain a bit. lol.

Jeff will tell you himself, he was shocked to win that qualifier the way he did. He played great, especially since he doesn't play straight pool, which I know is kinda the point here.

 

[Salamander]

No, I agree overall. I just took the oportunity to yank your chain a bit. lol.

Jeff will tell you himself, he was shocked to win that qualifier the way he did. He played great, especially since he doesn't play straight pool, which I know is kinda the point here.

Damn chain yankers. Where do you play nowadays Alex? Everything in Denver seems to be closing. Hell, I stopped in to play a bit at Tablesteaks on Sheridan, only to learn that it's now a furniture store.

Regards,

Doug

 

[akaTrigger]

Because of the late hour, the final match was cancelled. Congrats to Steve lipsky and Dan Louie for fighting all weekend to reach the finals, but it seems there were some involved that didn't feel it necessary to complete the event. Dan Louie had a plane to catch and Steve finally forfeited.

The fans and sponsors deserved better. To hear the commentators complaining about how late it was for the last half of the lipsky/tetrault match was a travesty. To see pat Fleming point to his watch at the end of the broadcast couldn't have been more unprofessional.

Pool has tournaments with a $1500 prize for the winner, for a reason.

Randy Goldwater

I am disappointed in titled threads like this. You make it seem like it's the first tournament streamed that ran late and the finalists split the money and/or didn't play the final set. I am hoping you are simply expressing your disappointment and not seriously using the NCS/CSI 14.1 Championship as an example that something is wrong with pool.

While I was one of the chat peeps that wanted to see the finals, I respected their decision and was still VERY happy to have seen that much great straight pool for two days.

I also applaud IMMENSELY the work of Holy, Accustats, Comet Billiards, the commentators, the players, NCS/CSI, and the AWESOME stream. A lot of hard work goes into tournaments - this one was no exception.

If anything, I think the production and tournament and coming together of the sponsors, players, chat, stream, fans, etc showed there is nothing wrong with pool.

IMHO.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I am disappointed in titled threads like this. You make it seem like it's the first tournament streamed that ran late and the finalists split the money and/or didn't play the final set. I am hoping you are simply expressing your disappointment and not seriously using the NCS/CSI 14.1 Championship as an example that something is wrong with pool.

While I was one of the chat peeps that wanted to see the finals, I respected their decision and was still VERY happy to have seen that much great straight pool for two days.

I also applaud IMMENSELY the work of Holy, Accustats, Comet Billiards, the commentators, the players, NCS/CSI, and the AWESOME stream. A lot of hard work goes into tournaments - this one was no exception.

If anything, I think the production and tournament and coming together of the sponsors, players, chat, stream, fans, etc showed there is nothing wrong with pool.

IMHO.

I think most people would agree with you. The work that went into this event was tremendous. Holly is very charming, Comet Billiards is unparallel in their devotion to organized pool and Pat Fleming's Accu-Stats set-up is top notch. The live feed was awesome. My only real suggestion (obv not something they were thinking about) is that they might want to consider offering live audio content (like radio). I was watching the feed on my iPhone at times and I could have easily just listened to the commentary to get the story.

 

[Holly]

This weekend

First I want to say thanks to everyone's comments and feedback. Positive feedback is always appreciated and constructive criticism an opportunity to address issues and to learn and grow.

I do take exception however to self-interested, non constructive comments. Yes, Randy I am speaking to you. The first thought that came to my mind when I read your initial comment that started this thread was the old saying "If your not part of the solution, maybe you may be part of the problem". It does not matter who any one of us are...that is ego, it is about what we do, how we contribute, how we treat ourselves and others that define who we are.

Many people are working tirelessly to build something for the sport, the players and the industry. The NCS is one of those endeavors, but not the only one. I am deeply proud of what the goals and values of the NCS are about - an opportunity for ALL players to participate, grow, and learn and CueSports International as a whole is about broadening opportunity for ALL players of ALL ability. That is not just a line, but the truth. I find it interesting how you chose to make the NCS 14.1 as your poster child for what it wrong in the industry. While I know the industry has its battles, I personally choose to look at what is right, what is working and what is positive and build on that. It was tremendous that you used to support the World 14.1 as I know it was greatly appreciated, but where does trying to tear down something that it purely in the best interest of the game help it? Your attitude I think sadly takes away from your previous accomplishments.

The NCS 14.1 Continuous National Championship at Comet Billiards this weekend was made of up players, almost all who won qualifiers, and a few others who participated in qualifiers who graciously filled for those who could not or chose not to play. There were two players who could not be there, and one who I knew of that chose to play in another event. There were also a few players who love the sport of 14.1 who played in a qualifier and desired to compete and were allowed paying an entry directly. Our sport is about heart and I saw 23 players, the staff at Comet and the team at Accu-Stats this weekend demonstrate that. The hours were long, matches at times grueling and it made me love them and the game even more. While no one is perfect, I think they came close especially for a first time event.

Everyone in the field had a strong knowledge of the game and work to promote it and can play. With the exception of one situation, all those who participated were extremely professional, and a joy to watch.

I wish to address a couple of issues that took place that have been commented about in this thread:

Sunday's Schedule issues: We started, as we did on Sat., the first round at 11. am. Two and a half hours were allocated for the matches all weekend. With the exception of one match, all other 11 am matches Sun. were completed in time. The one match that caused all the delays the rest of the day initially was based on numerous safeties taking place. However it also became apparent that one of the two players was playing exceedingly slow. I notified both players I needed to place the match on a shot clock. I used the 30 second clock, calling "10" when the 30 second time was up and the players were then allowed to call either one extension per rack or shoot within that 10 seconds in order to avoid a foul. I take full responsibility for not instituting a shot clock earlier in that match as I came to believe I should have. However as many people have mentioned, a shot clock in 14.1 is not as clear cut to use as with 9 or 10 ball. But it is one that is necessary. I did not make my decision lightly as both people in this match are excellent players and I would not choose to put anyone under a clock unless needed.

I later did use the shot clock in a second match which also had the slower player participating and tried to make up time to get us back on track as much as possible. I was concerned about the schedule for the players, the room owner, Pat Fleming and his team at Accu-Stats, the viewers and on-site spectators. Yes, while one player was the culprit, I too must take responsibility for not nipping it in the bud with him much earlier. (By the way, I like Roy's suggestion of how they monitor matches in Europe. Thank you Roy for passing that along.)

Dan Louie and Steve Lipsky, both who are truly fine individuals as all those who know them can attest, made the decision. I felt being it was their life and time that was being effected and out of respect to them would have supported them in anything they chose. I hope one day to see them play in match as I'm sure it would be fantastic. Both received paid spots to the 14.1 World Championships coming up August 24-29, also at Comet and produced by Dragon Promotions.

While the NCS is new and as any large scale new endeavor, on occasion we hit a few bumps, overwhelmingly I am excited at how it is progressing and thank those who see and understand its vision and goals.

The NCS is not a "what's in it for me" program from an organizational structure, it is fully about the sport, the players, and our industry that we took it on.


Thanks,
Holly

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

Oh, this is about politics, not pool? It seems you can't separate the two anymore.

How come we can't get out of our own way in this sport?

The more events that take place, the better IMO.

 

[oldzilla]

I am disappointed in titled threads like this. You make it seem like it's the first tournament streamed that ran late and the finalists split the money and/or didn't play the final set. I am hoping you are simply expressing your disappointment and not seriously using the NCS/CSI 14.1 Championship as an example that something is wrong with pool.

While I was one of the chat peeps that wanted to see the finals, I respected their decision and was still VERY happy to have seen that much great straight pool for two days.

I also applaud IMMENSELY the work of Holy, Accustats, Comet Billiards, the commentators, the players, NCS/CSI, and the AWESOME stream. A lot of hard work goes into tournaments - this one was no exception.

If anything, I think the production and tournament and coming together of the sponsors, players, chat, stream, fans, etc showed there is nothing wrong with pool.

IMHO.

well put ! tap tap tap.

 

[FLICKit]

Thanks for your post Holly!

I had no affiliation with the straight pool event in any way, because I was obviously busy with the Scott vs Shane event. But I understand all the work and effort and dedication to the sport of pool to put together such an event and enterprise in order to advance the sport of pool.

And the frustration that can be involved after doing all of that, to have some poster put up such a negative scathing post. As if ten minutes of typing has more validity than ten months of planning....

Thanks to all the people who provide positive support for advancing the sport of pool - beit pool players or organizers or sponsors...

 

[AtLarge]

For holding this tournament, thank you -- to Holly, CSI, Comet Billiards, Accu-Stats, rooms that held qualifiers, tournament directors of qualifiers, and everyone who attempted to qualify.

I think it's great to have a national championship in straight pool. And to be able to watch eight matches from home, at no charge, was super.

This year's event definitely had some "start-up" problems -- too few qualifying events, too few players attempting to qualify, the absence of some of the nation's best 14.1 players, too little prize money for a national championship, and the ultimate "burp" of no final match.

But the tournament was held! And it produced some excellent play. No one beat Dan Louie, and he will forever hold the title of 2009 U.S. National Straight-Pool Champion.

 

[FLICKit]

For holding this tournament, thank you -- to Holly, CSI, Comet Billiards, Accu-Stats, rooms that held qualifiers, tournament directors of qualifiers, and everyone who attempted to qualify.

I think it's great to have a national championship in straight pool. And to be able to watch eight matches from home, at no charge, was super.

This year's event definitely had some "start-up" problems -- too few qualifying events, too few players attempting to qualify, the absence of some of the nation's best 14.1 players, too little prize money for a national championship, and the ultimate "burp" of no final match.

But the tournament was held! And it produced some excellent play. No one beat Dan Louie, and he will forever hold the title of 2009 U.S. National Straight-Pool Champion.

Now, that's a more respectful assessment. Thanks.

Part of the problems that you mentioned can be simply addressed by people getting involved.

Question is, what will we do (all of us who weren't involved) to make the next event even better. Hold a qualifier or two yourself... Or else play in qualifiers... Or else help get other strong 14.1 players involved to help ensure a stronger field next time...

It's amazing how many pool players simply aren't aware of these types of major events, just from not following these types of forums as closely as some of us do. So, just making other people aware can make a big impact.

But all of this isn't possible without people with the right integrity being willing to establish the foundation. At least it won't be built on a house of cards...

Just my lil 2 cents worth.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Oh, this is about politics, not pool? It seems you can't separate the two anymore.

Truer words were not spoken!

 

[lfigueroa]

First I want to say thanks to everyone's comments and feedback. Positive feedback is always appreciated and constructive criticism an opportunity to address issues and to learn and grow.

I do take exception however to self-interested, non constructive comments. Yes, Randy I am speaking to you. The first thought that came to my mind when I read your initial comment that started this thread was the old saying "If your not part of the solution, maybe you may be part of the problem". It does not matter who any one of us are...that is ego, it is about what we do, how we contribute, how we treat ourselves and others that define who we are.

Many people are working tirelessly to build something for the sport, the players and the industry. The NCS is one of those endeavors, but not the only one. I am deeply proud of what the goals and values of the NCS are about - an opportunity for ALL players to participate, grow, and learn and CueSports International as a whole is about broadening opportunity for ALL players of ALL ability. That is not just a line, but the truth. I find it interesting how you chose to make the NCS 14.1 as your poster child for what it wrong in the industry. While I know the industry has its battles, I personally choose to look at what is right, what is working and what is positive and build on that. It was tremendous that you used to support the World 14.1 as I know it was greatly appreciated, but where does trying to tear down something that it purely in the best interest of the game help it? Your attitude I think sadly takes away from your previous accomplishments.

The NCS 14.1 Continuous National Championship at Comet Billiards this weekend was made of up players, almost all who won qualifiers, and a few others who participated in qualifiers who graciously filled for those who could not or chose not to play. There were two players who could not be there, and one who I knew of that chose to play in another event. There were also a few players who love the sport of 14.1 who played in a qualifier and desired to compete and were allowed paying an entry directly. Our sport is about heart and I saw 23 players, the staff at Comet and the team at Accu-Stats this weekend demonstrate that. The hours were long, matches at times grueling and it made me love them and the game even more. While no one is perfect, I think they came close especially for a first time event.

Everyone in the field had a strong knowledge of the game and work to promote it and can play. With the exception of one situation, all those who participated were extremely professional, and a joy to watch.

I wish to address a couple of issues that took place that have been commented about in this thread:

Sunday's Schedule issues: We started, as we did on Sat., the first round at 11. am. Two and a half hours were allocated for the matches all weekend. With the exception of one match, all other 11 am matches Sun. were completed in time. The one match that caused all the delays the rest of the day initially was based on numerous safeties taking place. However it also became apparent that one of the two players was playing exceedingly slow. I notified both players I needed to place the match on a shot clock. I used the 30 second clock, calling "10" when the 30 second time was up and the players were then allowed to call either one extension per rack or shoot within that 10 seconds in order to avoid a foul. I take full responsibility for not instituting a shot clock earlier in that match as I came to believe I should have. However as many people have mentioned, a shot clock in 14.1 is not as clear cut to use as with 9 or 10 ball. But it is one that is necessary. I did not make my decision lightly as both people in this match are excellent players and I would not choose to put anyone under a clock unless needed.

I later did use the shot clock in a second match which also had the slower player participating and tried to make up time to get us back on track as much as possible. I was concerned about the schedule for the players, the room owner, Pat Fleming and his team at Accu-Stats, the viewers and on-site spectators. Yes, while one player was the culprit, I too must take responsibility for not nipping it in the bud with him much earlier. (By the way, I like Roy's suggestion of how they monitor matches in Europe. Thank you Roy for passing that along.)

Dan Louie and Steve Lipsky, both who are truly fine individuals as all those who know them can attest, made the decision. I felt being it was their life and time that was being effected and out of respect to them would have supported them in anything they chose. I hope one day to see them play in match as I'm sure it would be fantastic. Both received paid spots to the 14.1 World Championships coming up August 24-29, also at Comet and produced by Dragon Promotions.

While the NCS is new and as any large scale new endeavor, on occasion we hit a few bumps, overwhelmingly I am excited at how it is progressing and thank those who see and understand its vision and goals.

The NCS is not a "what's in it for me" program from an organizational structure, it is fully about the sport, the players, and our industry that we took it on.


Thanks,
Holly

Good informative response. My impression is that you guys did a great job getting this off the ground and ran a very, very nice event. Congratulations.

As to the issue of slow play, I've always thought this was one area where tournament directors should be more involved. Whether it's a question of unsportsmanlike conduct, or the legality of a hit, or slow play, I think if the TD has the cojones and cred, he or she should be able to make a call the players will all respect. In the instance of slow play, a TD should be able to observe a match and, if appropriate, warn a player they are playing too slow and to speed it up. If the TD continues to observe slow play, they should issue a second warning, with the caveat that there will be no third warning and the match will be a forfeit. Just an idea.

Lou Figueroa

 

[alstl]

shot clock would fix all that

Exactly. Maybe 45 sec clock with one extension per rack per player. The other options would be slightly bigger pockets so they can get some good runs going or shorter races in the early rounds.

I very much enjoyed the live stream and am glad Pat streamed it and Holly from OB sponsored it.

And congrats to Steve for taking second and getting free entry into the world championship.

 

[grandpapkusky]

Are you referring to me? Are you just ignorant, or what. "made an effort", WTF? Do you even know who you are speaking too when you let your drivel run free?

Rg

I never been to NYC so I have to admit, I dont know who the heck you are either. But the lines you wrote are usually spoke when a cop is giving a ticket to someone who thinks they're better than the cop.


we're all the same here except some have more money than others & flaunt it.

 

[Majic]

The shot clock suggestion is good, but i think having a time limit in preliminary rounds would keep things on schedule.