What's wrong with pool? Look no further than NCIS 14.1championship

[unknownpro]

I think a search of old threads will reveal that the shot clock issue has already been solved, and that solution is chess timers. Each player is allowed half the time. This is the only viable solution in my opinion. You can't wait until a match is partway through and then put both players on a clock, it is very unfair.

 

[ShootingArts]

Not sure how it would work but sounds interesting

I think a search of old threads will reveal that the shot clock issue has already been solved, and that solution is chess timers. Each player is allowed half the time. This is the only viable solution in my opinion. You can't wait until a match is partway through and then put both players on a clock, it is very unfair.

I don't know exactly how that would work but it sounds interesting. Do you count down from a set amount of time? Count up?

Hu

 

[NYC cue dude]

I never been to NYC so I have to admit, I dont know who the heck you are either. But the lines you wrote are usually spoke when a cop is giving a ticket to someone who thinks they're better than the cop.


we're all the same here except some have more money than others & flaunt it.

I wrote that response after I misinterpreted a post I thought that was slamming people for criticizing pro events when they haven't done anything for the sport. This event wouldn't have ever happened had straight pool hadn't undergone an resurgence because of the 2006 world straight pool championships. For those that didn't know, I "helped" make the event in 2006 and 2007 happen.

There are no politics involved from my perspective. I funded those events because I love this genre and wanted to restore it as the elite game it once was.

Rg

 

[vagabond]

I agree. One of the matches to 150 took 5 hours.

What do I expect!!! No surprise.That Tabersky dude started that trend.Rules allow the slow play.You will never find me in spectator bleachers at a straight pool tournament.

Has anybody watched Ronnie O`Sullivan`s 147 run in 4 minutes and 47 seconds? Need to think,plan and execute on a shot is not limitted to one pocket and straight pool. snooker also needs thinking,planning and executing .But the snooker players I have seen do not take long time to shoot like Einsteins of One pocket and straight pool.

 

[alstl]

First I want to say thanks to everyone's comments and feedback. Positive feedback is always appreciated and constructive criticism an opportunity to address issues and to learn and grow.

I do take exception however to self-interested, non constructive comments. Yes, Randy I am speaking to you. The first thought that came to my mind when I read your initial comment that started this thread was the old saying "If your not part of the solution, maybe you may be part of the problem". It does not matter who any one of us are...that is ego, it is about what we do, how we contribute, how we treat ourselves and others that define who we are.

Many people are working tirelessly to build something for the sport, the players and the industry. The NCS is one of those endeavors, but not the only one. I am deeply proud of what the goals and values of the NCS are about - an opportunity for ALL players to participate, grow, and learn and CueSports International as a whole is about broadening opportunity for ALL players of ALL ability. That is not just a line, but the truth. I find it interesting how you chose to make the NCS 14.1 as your poster child for what it wrong in the industry. While I know the industry has its battles, I personally choose to look at what is right, what is working and what is positive and build on that. It was tremendous that you used to support the World 14.1 as I know it was greatly appreciated, but where does trying to tear down something that it purely in the best interest of the game help it? Your attitude I think sadly takes away from your previous accomplishments.

The NCS 14.1 Continuous National Championship at Comet Billiards this weekend was made of up players, almost all who won qualifiers, and a few others who participated in qualifiers who graciously filled for those who could not or chose not to play. There were two players who could not be there, and one who I knew of that chose to play in another event. There were also a few players who love the sport of 14.1 who played in a qualifier and desired to compete and were allowed paying an entry directly. Our sport is about heart and I saw 23 players, the staff at Comet and the team at Accu-Stats this weekend demonstrate that. The hours were long, matches at times grueling and it made me love them and the game even more. While no one is perfect, I think they came close especially for a first time event.

Everyone in the field had a strong knowledge of the game and work to promote it and can play. With the exception of one situation, all those who participated were extremely professional, and a joy to watch.

I wish to address a couple of issues that took place that have been commented about in this thread:

Sunday's Schedule issues: We started, as we did on Sat., the first round at 11. am. Two and a half hours were allocated for the matches all weekend. With the exception of one match, all other 11 am matches Sun. were completed in time. The one match that caused all the delays the rest of the day initially was based on numerous safeties taking place. However it also became apparent that one of the two players was playing exceedingly slow. I notified both players I needed to place the match on a shot clock. I used the 30 second clock, calling "10" when the 30 second time was up and the players were then allowed to call either one extension per rack or shoot within that 10 seconds in order to avoid a foul. I take full responsibility for not instituting a shot clock earlier in that match as I came to believe I should have. However as many people have mentioned, a shot clock in 14.1 is not as clear cut to use as with 9 or 10 ball. But it is one that is necessary. I did not make my decision lightly as both people in this match are excellent players and I would not choose to put anyone under a clock unless needed.

I later did use the shot clock in a second match which also had the slower player participating and tried to make up time to get us back on track as much as possible. I was concerned about the schedule for the players, the room owner, Pat Fleming and his team at Accu-Stats, the viewers and on-site spectators. Yes, while one player was the culprit, I too must take responsibility for not nipping it in the bud with him much earlier. (By the way, I like Roy's suggestion of how they monitor matches in Europe. Thank you Roy for passing that along.)

Dan Louie and Steve Lipsky, both who are truly fine individuals as all those who know them can attest, made the decision. I felt being it was their life and time that was being effected and out of respect to them would have supported them in anything they chose. I hope one day to see them play in match as I'm sure it would be fantastic. Both received paid spots to the 14.1 World Championships coming up August 24-29, also at Comet and produced by Dragon Promotions.

While the NCS is new and as any large scale new endeavor, on occasion we hit a few bumps, overwhelmingly I am excited at how it is progressing and thank those who see and understand its vision and goals.

The NCS is not a "what's in it for me" program from an organizational structure, it is fully about the sport, the players, and our industry that we took it on.


Thanks,
Holly

I enjoyed the feed Holly. Had to give up and go to bed before it was over but I enjoyed it. Also saw you play in the game show earlier in the week and for those who don't know, this girl hits em straight.

 

[sausage]

$1,500 purse is a disgrace.

the slow pace of straight pool assures that it will never again be televised as a spectator sport for the masses. it's a shame. in the 60's you could actually watch a straight pool championship on tv. i'm downloading the finals between balsis and crane on youtube. irving crane runs 150 and out after a balsis mistake.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...Has anybody watched Ronnie O`Sullivan`s 147 run in 4 minutes and 47 seconds? ...

Five minutes and 20 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO3Hy0niNF0

I've seen two 3.5-hour pro straight pool matches to 150. One was between Lassiter and Dick Lane in the 1975 US Open. Lassiter ran 103 but also 3-fouled three times. The other was in the 1980 WC 14.1 in NYC between Frank McGown and -- believe it or not -- Lou Butera. A guy with a watch timed McGown at 8 minutes for one shot and 5 minutes for a couple of others. I think the referee should have said, "Mr. McGown, any more slow play and you will forfeit this match." A clock would not have been needed.

I can't imagine nearly 5 hours for 150, but then Appleton had a 7-hour match in a race to 3 at one pocket.

A clock wouldn't have bothered Sigel's run as I recall since he rarely took more than about 10 seconds on any shot.

While single elimination is more pressure, you can even out the chances by making each match 50 points longer and still finish sooner than with double elimination. I think double elimination is a very bad solution to a minor problem.

As far as seeding players directly into the tournament, I think that at most two seeds are justified -- the winner and the runner-up from the previous year. It's important for most of the top players to qualify because it gives local players the chance to play them. The point of the exercise, as I see it, is to promote the discipline with as much organized competition as possible, and not to put a little money in the top players' pockets. Also, all players for the WC 14.1 should be qualified (by tournament or by confederational ranking) except for a few seeds -- maybe 4 of 64.

I'd like to thank all of those involved with organizing this inaugural event for their work. I know how much effort is involved starting from a base of zero and getting qualifier sites lined up and coordinating entries. I hope the event continues and grows, and I'm sure that lessons were learned and the learning will be applied.

 

[unknownpro]

I don't know exactly how that would work but it sounds interesting. Do you count down from a set amount of time? Count up?

Hu

A chess clock has 2 timers, one for each player. For a 2 hour match you give each player 1 hour. Your timer counts down while you shoot. When you miss you hit the button that switches to your opponent's clock.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=102066&highlight=chess+timer

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

First I want to say thanks to everyone's comments and feedback. Positive feedback is always appreciated and constructive criticism an opportunity to address issues and to learn and grow.

Thanks,
Holly

Holly, Thanks for putting on a terrific tournament!

I think that one of the things that can help these tournaments grow in popularity is greater visibility, especially with the media. Were reporters from the local and national newspapers and tv stations invited to attend? Were they informed of the tournament results?

If tournaments like this can generate more mainstream media publicity, that would help to promote our sport tremendously.

 

[dmgwalsh]

First I want to say thanks to everyone's comments and feedback. Positive feedback is always appreciated and constructive criticism an opportunity to address issues and to learn and grow.

I do take exception however to self-interested, non constructive comments. Yes, Randy I am speaking to you. The first thought that came to my mind when I read your initial comment that started this thread was the old saying "If your not part of the solution, maybe you may be part of the problem". It does not matter who any one of us are...that is ego, it is about what we do, how we contribute, how we treat ourselves and others that define who we are.

Many people are working tirelessly to build something for the sport, the players and the industry. The NCS is one of those endeavors, but not the only one. I am deeply proud of what the goals and values of the NCS are about - an opportunity for ALL players to participate, grow, and learn and CueSports International as a whole is about broadening opportunity for ALL players of ALL ability. That is not just a line, but the truth. I find it interesting how you chose to make the NCS 14.1 as your poster child for what it wrong in the industry. While I know the industry has its battles, I personally choose to look at what is right, what is working and what is positive and build on that. It was tremendous that you used to support the World 14.1 as I know it was greatly appreciated, but where does trying to tear down something that it purely in the best interest of the game help it? Your attitude I think sadly takes away from your previous accomplishments.

The NCS 14.1 Continuous National Championship at Comet Billiards this weekend was made of up players, almost all who won qualifiers, and a few others who participated in qualifiers who graciously filled for those who could not or chose not to play. There were two players who could not be there, and one who I knew of that chose to play in another event. There were also a few players who love the sport of 14.1 who played in a qualifier and desired to compete and were allowed paying an entry directly. Our sport is about heart and I saw 23 players, the staff at Comet and the team at Accu-Stats this weekend demonstrate that. The hours were long, matches at times grueling and it made me love them and the game even more. While no one is perfect, I think they came close especially for a first time event.

Everyone in the field had a strong knowledge of the game and work to promote it and can play. With the exception of one situation, all those who participated were extremely professional, and a joy to watch.

I wish to address a couple of issues that took place that have been commented about in this thread:

Sunday's Schedule issues: We started, as we did on Sat., the first round at 11. am. Two and a half hours were allocated for the matches all weekend. With the exception of one match, all other 11 am matches Sun. were completed in time. The one match that caused all the delays the rest of the day initially was based on numerous safeties taking place. However it also became apparent that one of the two players was playing exceedingly slow. I notified both players I needed to place the match on a shot clock. I used the 30 second clock, calling "10" when the 30 second time was up and the players were then allowed to call either one extension per rack or shoot within that 10 seconds in order to avoid a foul. I take full responsibility for not instituting a shot clock earlier in that match as I came to believe I should have. However as many people have mentioned, a shot clock in 14.1 is not as clear cut to use as with 9 or 10 ball. But it is one that is necessary. I did not make my decision lightly as both people in this match are excellent players and I would not choose to put anyone under a clock unless needed.

I later did use the shot clock in a second match which also had the slower player participating and tried to make up time to get us back on track as much as possible. I was concerned about the schedule for the players, the room owner, Pat Fleming and his team at Accu-Stats, the viewers and on-site spectators. Yes, while one player was the culprit, I too must take responsibility for not nipping it in the bud with him much earlier. (By the way, I like Roy's suggestion of how they monitor matches in Europe. Thank you Roy for passing that along.)

Dan Louie and Steve Lipsky, both who are truly fine individuals as all those who know them can attest, made the decision. I felt being it was their life and time that was being effected and out of respect to them would have supported them in anything they chose. I hope one day to see them play in match as I'm sure it would be fantastic. Both received paid spots to the 14.1 World Championships coming up August 24-29, also at Comet and produced by Dragon Promotions.

While the NCS is new and as any large scale new endeavor, on occasion we hit a few bumps, overwhelmingly I am excited at how it is progressing and thank those who see and understand its vision and goals.

The NCS is not a "what's in it for me" program from an organizational structure, it is fully about the sport, the players, and our industry that we took it on.


Thanks,
Holly

Holly : I think you did a wonderful job putting together the field that you did. In this economy, I think it was hard getting enough qualifiers going and getting the local players interested in competing. Then some of the winners couldn't make it for health, or budget reasons and you moved to fill the field as best you could with as well qualified players as you could find. Charlie Williams does the same thing at the last minute in the worlds to fill the field.

If some of the play was less than stellar, so what. If some of the games took too long, your event was not the only one that suffered from that. The semi-finals at the World's between Feijen and VanDenBerg took forever. As much as I like straight pool, it was hard to watch.

The venue looked terrific. Accu-Stats was great and the live feed was fun to watch.

Thanks for all your hard work and I look forward to next year.

 

[JimS]

Holly : I think you did a wonderful job putting together the field that you did. In this economy, I think it was hard getting enough qualifiers going and getting the local players interested in competing. Then some of the winners couldn't make it for health, or budget reasons and you moved to fill the field as best you could with as well qualified players as you could find. Charlie Williams does the same thing at the last minute in the worlds to fill the field.

If some of the play was less than stellar, so what. If some of the games took too long, your event was not the only one that suffered from that. The semi-finals at the World's between Feijen and VanDenBerg took forever. As much as I like straight pool, it was hard to watch.

The venue looked terrific. Accu-Stats was great and the live feed was fun to watch.

Thanks for all your hard work and I look forward to next year.

Ditto to Dennis' comments. I watched the feed and enjoyed it! Thanks for doing it!!

Now.....ON to RED SHOES!! (8/15)

 

[vagabond]

Five minutes and 20 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO3Hy0niNF0

I've seen two 3.5-hour pro straight pool matches to 150. One was between Lassiter and Dick Lane in the 1975 US Open. Lassiter ran 103 but also 3-fouled three times. The other was in the 1980 WC 14.1 in NYC between Frank McGown and -- believe it or not -- Lou Butera. A guy with a watch timed McGown at 8 minutes for one shot and 5 minutes for a couple of others. I think the referee should have said, "Mr. McGown, any more slow play and you will forfeit this match." A clock would not have been needed.

I can't imagine nearly 5 hours for 150, but then Appleton had a 7-hour match in a race to 3 at one pocket.

A clock wouldn't have bothered Sigel's run as I recall since he rarely took more than about 10 seconds on any shot.

While single elimination is more pressure, you can even out the chances by making each match 50 points longer and still finish sooner than with double elimination. I think double elimination is a very bad solution to a minor problem.

As far as seeding players directly into the tournament, I think that at most two seeds are justified -- the winner and the runner-up from the previous year. It's important for most of the top players to qualify because it gives local players the chance to play them. The point of the exercise, as I see it, is to promote the discipline with as much organized competition as possible, and not to put a little money in the top players' pockets. Also, all players for the WC 14.1 should be qualified (by tournament or by confederational ranking) except for a few seeds -- maybe 4 of 64.

I'd like to thank all of those involved with organizing this inaugural event for their work. I know how much effort is involved starting from a base of zero and getting qualifier sites lined up and coordinating entries. I hope the event continues and grows, and I'm sure that lessons were learned and the learning will be applied.

Thanks ,Bob for the info on the list of slow players in the history of pool.I am going to copy this and save it in my files. I stay corrected on Ronnie O` Sullivan`s timing.

 

[alstl]

Going strictly from memory, I think Crane's 150 took about 45 minutes once he got started. One shot I remember was a four railer he hit to get on the key ball. When I rewound it I noticed he lined up his cue to get the angle off the fourth rail before he shot it. It then took him 8 seconds to shoot the key ball and get perfect on the break ball.

Perhaps if a match is taking too long a 45 second shot clock with one extension per player per rack.

 

[yobagua]

Holly Thank you for such an informative and productive post. The only thing wrong with pool is that every decade someone comes along (usually a dilettante or non pro) and tells us whats wrong with pool. I really look up to Mark Griffin and Pat Fleming who have really taken the gamble in such tough economic times and continue to put on pool events and create a history and library to document this eras age of pool.

For Pat to stream this to us the pool fans for free using top grade equipment is such a sacrifice for a man who is struggling to keep his business that makes its money from selling pool matches afloat. I think this is a wonderful time for pool. With all the online streaming and international access to all cue sports from snooker to 3 cushion Billiards to 14.1. Its to you and your peers that I applaud.

 

[Mowem down]

I must off missed it...

I buzzed through the thread rather quick so I must have missed all the places people said good jod to Mr. Dan Louie. A truer champion was not at the tourney, the man travled 3000 miles, played just as long as anybody and Im guessing was the senior player in the pack....

GOOD DAMN JOB DANNY BOY !!!!!!

 

[ironman]

Holly, Thanks for putting on a terrific tournament!

I think that one of the things that can help these tournaments grow in popularity is greater visibility, especially with the media. Were reporters from the local and national newspapers and tv stations invited to attend? Were they informed of the tournament results?

If tournaments like this can generate more mainstream media publicity, that would help to promote our sport tremendously.

Inviting them to attend is not much of a problem at all. Getting them there is a huge problem! They just flatly do not care> I have encountered this on several occasions and you wold not believe the excuses they can come up with. Their favorite though is, "they don't want to asscociate with the element"!

 

[NYC cue dude]

Holly, Thanks for putting on a terrific tournament!

I think that one of the things that can help these tournaments grow in popularity is greater visibility, especially with the media. Were reporters from the local and national newspapers and tv stations invited to attend? Were they informed of the tournament results?

If tournaments like this can generate more mainstream media publicity, that would help to promote our sport tremendously.

this is my point, exactly. Thank God the media wasn't in attendance. Report the results? Are you kidding me? There wasn't any results to report, just scandal. In fact, the final not being played would have been the only thing they would have reported on. I couldn't imagine opening a sports page a reading that any other sports final was cancelled because it was too late. No wonder mainstream media and the public has zero interest.

Rg

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

this is my point, exactly. Thank God the media wasn't in attendance. Report the results? Are you kidding me? There wasn't any results to report, just scandal. In fact, the final not being played would have been the only thing they would have reported on. I couldn't imagine opening a sports page a reading that any other sports final was cancelled because it was too late. No wonder mainstream media and the public has zero interest.

Rg

Pool could learn a few things from Paris Hilton. Any publicity, including bad publicity, is better than no publicity at all.

Steve Lipsky's forfeit due to the late hour is hardly scandalous, and certainly isn't in the same league as your former governor's romp in the hay.

Let's be practical about this. It wasn't Steve's fault that an earlier match took 5 hours to complete, thus delaying the other matches. Starting the final match at 12:30 in the morning and having it play out past 3AM to determine the winner isn't exactly going to stimulate the interest of pool-playing fans if they're all in bed sleeping.

Regarding some comments made about the payouts, if you want to dramatically increase the payouts of these pool tournaments, you need to increase the visibility of the sport and the easiest way to do it is by generating more mainstream media publicity. No question that pool's reputation is less than stellar but we need to start taking some baby steps to improving it's reputation.

The tournament organizers admitted that some mistakes were made. As part of lessons learned, I have no doubt that in future tournaments there will be some changes made. So it's not like we're perpetually doomed to repeating the same mistakes.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

this is my point, exactly. Thank God the media wasn't in attendance. Report the results? Are you kidding me? There wasn't any results to report, just scandal. In fact, the final not being played would have been the only thing they would have reported on. I couldn't imagine opening a sports page a reading that any other sports final was cancelled because it was too late. No wonder mainstream media and the public has zero interest.

Rg

Randy,

This was not a scandal. And the mainstream media and the public had zero interest in pool well before this incident. They have zero interest in pool because it's boring to watch and it's not outside in nice scenery.

Nobody is more disappointed in the result of that night than I. I've replayed it countless times in my head in the two days since the tournament, wondering if I should have done it differently. There was a terrible confluence of events leading up to my decision, not the least of which that I was already dead tired, I had to go to work the next morning, and I had to drive myself home. I'd have been more dangerous than that lady on the Taconic if I played another 3 hour match at that point.

I'm upset with myself for not thinking of some alternatives: I could've asked my wife to take the train at 12:30 am to Comet, be picked up by Mr. Haley, so she could watch some of the final and then drive me home. I could've stayed in a hotel room that night, gotten three hours of sleep, and then driven to work in the morning (this was not a great option but I still didn't think of it). Finally, I could've asked Dan if he would agree to play the finals in the days leading up to the World Championships, since we'd both be at Comet anyway. If a delayed finals was good enough for the World Series of Poker Main Event, why not for us? I just didn't think of it, and in truth Dan may not have accepted it.

I wasn't thinking clearly about how many people might've been watching the live stream. I knew it was getting some pretty good numbers during the day, but I figured that the online audience was probably looking a lot like the live audience at that point - about 15 guys, 6 of whom were asleep at any given moment lol (I don't blame them ).

With the current economic situation, and some big financial responsibilities I have coming up, even if I could've found a way home at 4am this was simply not the right time for me to stroll into work at noon on Monday. As many of you know, I could explain it was a national championship til I was blue in the face; to a non-pool player, all that sounds like is "I was out late playing pool."

One last thing in my defense - nobody in the room that night, not the tournament director, the room owner, Pat Fleming, Dan Louie, or any of the spectators expressed any level of dissatisfaction with my decision. I'm absolutely not blaming them - I'm just stating that, that night, there was no lingering feeling that I was doing something very wrong to the fans or the game. Everyone was just like, "It's late, I understand." In the room that night, there was no indication that a thread like this would be started the next morning.

However, the above information is not relevant to the fans or to the game itself. I owed everyone and myself more. I sincerely apologize to those affected and upset. I really had no idea of the magnitude of the situation until the next morning when I read this thread. And I'm just sick about it, to know that I played such a direct role in something that hurt the integrity of the game.

So back to the word "scandal". It's hurtful when what I did is compared to, say, what Strickland did against Corey Deuel all those years ago, quitting in the finals in front of paying spectators, at a regularly scheduled time (i.e., not 12:30am). That is disgraceful, that is a scandal, and that is not what I did. We also did not chop up the prizes; Dan Louie was the winner of the tournament, got all the first place goodies and money, and he completely deserved all of it. What a tremendous player he is, and I'm really happy I got to finally meet him and learn from him.

It's also hurtful when I've been such a responsible and (I hope) contributing member of the pool community for over a decade now, and now because of this regrettable situation it seems my name has been blackened to some.

- Steve

 

[jtrombetta]

That's subject to abuse. As the time limit nears, the player who is ahead can stall, take a break, etc. -- anything to keep his opponent from getting to the table and catching up.

The question of this thread was just answered right there! Why is the mentality of pool becoming like a nascar race and the WWF all rapped up in one? I have been around the game for over 20 years and there used to be a little class involved especially at tournaments. I have absolutley no doubt that someone would stall out a match to win the cash instead of playing it out, like we did it in the old days, at least thats the way it was where I came from....