"The Big Ban"

[gulyassy]

I just don't agree that we 'mislead' and were 'dishonest' in our decision. We did not come up with a lame excuse.

We did not get into 'jump cues tips' because the force is not there to damage the cue ball.

I do not want to argue with people over this. We try to 'kinda' follow the WPA model in our sport because we would like to see the sport grow in an organized fashion. The WPA rules state tip must be pliable etc.

Just because the WPA has elected to not enforce the rule - do not jump all over us. I would have liked to just ban everything but leather - but could not justify it from the damage perspective. Remember this only applies to break cues .

Bottom line is - if you think these 'hard tips' do no damage to the playing equipment, you are not well informed. And we do know what we are talking about. There are a lot of theories out there.

There is no 'ulterior motive' or 'conspiracy' here. Tips (on break cues) should be leather. Period.

My honest opinion is somewhere down the road, leather will be re-instated as the only tip material to be used. But I am not going to be the first to do that.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League

I am very well informed about my product and the other products used in the break jump shot. I say again that my material does not damage the cue balls. I have had tests done on materials used and the finding are on the Shore D scale used by the United States patent office to determine the hardness of plastics. The red circle cue ball is 94, my material is 92 and G10 is 98. This is fact, now let me see your facts, not all plastics will damage the balls.
Mike Gulyassy: inventor and patent holder of the phenolic ferrule/tip
Patent no: US 7,452,282 B2
Date of patent: Nov. 18, 2008

 

[ShootingArts]

Mike made the case for you

Mark,

Mike made the case for you when he claimed phenolic had a hardness of 92 and the cue ball a hardness of 94. Anyone with any knowledge at all knows that the damage two objects do to each other is related to hardness and surface area. Only judging by Mike's claims as to hardness it becomes obvious that phenolic tips will damage cue balls. I don't particularly care one way or the other but it seems to me that Mike keeps shooting himself in the foot in this thread.

Hu

I just don't agree that we 'mislead' and were 'dishonest' in our decision. We did not come up with a lame excuse.

We did not get into 'jump cues tips' because the force is not there to damage the cue ball.

I do not want to argue with people over this. We try to 'kinda' follow the WPA model in our sport because we would like to see the sport grow in an organized fashion. The WPA rules state tip must be pliable etc.

Just because the WPA has elected to not enforce the rule - do not jump all over us. I would have liked to just ban everything but leather - but could not justify it from the damage perspective. Remember this only applies to break cues .

Bottom line is - if you think these 'hard tips' do no damage to the playing equipment, you are not well informed. And we do know what we are talking about. There are a lot of theories out there.

There is no 'ulterior motive' or 'conspiracy' here. Tips (on break cues) should be leather. Period.

My honest opinion is somewhere down the road, leather will be re-instated as the only tip material to be used. But I am not going to be the first to do that.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League

 

[btoneill]

I have a solution for all parties involved....

Lets look at the defination of leather according to Merriam Webster:

* Main Entry: 1leath·er
* Pronunciation: \ˈle-thər\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English lether, from Old English lether-; akin to Old High German leder leather, Old Irish lethar
* Date: 13th century

1 : animal skin dressed for use
2 : the flap of the ear of a dog — see dog illustration illustration
3 : something wholly or partly made of leather

I think using the flap of the dog ear is out...
The ruling says the contact area has to be completely leather, so I think 3 is out as well...

So, the solution to this entire problem is simple!

Someone needs to figure out how to grow plastics for use in break cue tips on an animal!

See, now wasn't that easy!

Brian

 

[gulyassy]

Mark,

Mike made the case for you when he claimed phenolic had a hardness of 92 and the cue ball a hardness of 94. Anyone with any knowledge at all knows that the damage two objects do to each other is related to hardness and surface area. Only judging by Mike's claims as to hardness it becomes obvious that phenolic tips will damage cue balls. I don't particularly care one way or the other but it seems to me that Mike keeps shooting himself in the foot in this thread.

Hu

The way you are explaining it then the balls should damage each other. The same amount of contact area between the balls and the the tip on the balls. When a cue ball is sent at the one ball at 25mph it should damage it because it is harder than my material.

 

[btoneill]

The way you are explaining it then the balls should damage each other. The same amount of contact area between the balls and the the tip on the balls. When a cue ball is sent at the one ball at 25mph it should damage it because it is harder than my material.

Just to bring some physics into it...

Cue ball is 5.5-6oz, object ball is 5.5oz.
Cue stick is 17-24oz.

It's a big difference when two objects of equal weight collide than when an object of 3-4x the weight collide when both sets of objects are moving at the same speed.

Now, make your break cue 6oz's and you're good to go with that train of thought!

Brian

 

[Celtic]

My honest opinion is somewhere down the road, leather will be re-instated as the only tip material to be used. But I am not going to be the first to do that.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League

Many of us cannot wait for that day.

Truth be told Mark, your ranking system that is in place with the BCAPL, open players through to Grand Masters and Pro gives you the framework to create a true professional billiards tour that has the groundwork for Pro Player card status all in place. The BCAPL and the tournament in Vegas each May is a prime Qualifying event to reach pro status and get a tour card that allows you to play in the BCAPBT (BCA Pro Billiards Tour) professional events. Ranking points gained on the tour allowing you to keep your card or fall back to grand master (or lower) status.

A true professional tour such as this would not require the players to pay entry fees into the events and prize purses would come from both corperate sponsorship from Diamond Billiards, Simonis, perhaps a casino company such as MGM Mirage or Las Vegas Sands, ect... along with a cut from the league fees from the BCAPL. I would have no issue paying $1 more per a week for pool league if something like this existed, I have an outside chance to one day cash high in Vegas and gain a tour card for that $20 a year and it is 1/4 the price of a single beer I end up drinking each week at league. If every single player in the BCAPL paid $1 more a week that is alot of money into the pool (no pun intended) to get something like this off the ground.

Imagine what this would also do to the BCAPL at the amature level, if the league system became a part of the qualifying system that leads to the profession pool tour in the USA? Your league system would become the minor leagues for professional pool. The BCAPL would actually become the juniors and people competing in the lower ranks of the BCA are competing with some people who will be the future professional players in the BCAPBT.

This sport NEEDS a true professional pool tour in the USA, and IMO your BCAPL is the best jumpoff point to set up something like this. You have the perfect qualification system to make an exclusive tour where people actually have to qualify much like the PGA. Professional Pool Player becomes a exclusive and earned title and as such gains a little of the exclusivity and mystique that the PGA currently markets to great effect for their tour card holders.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The way you are explaining it then the balls should damage each other. The same amount of contact area between the balls and the the tip on the balls. When a cue ball is sent at the one ball at 25mph it should damage it because it is harder than my material.

LOL. Ask any room owner which balls from a set need to be replaced, in terms of specific balls. Most replaced, due to damage - cue ball. Second most damaged ball - 1 ball, if there is a lot of 9ball play in the room. So, his explanation is correct.

 

[btoneill]

M
A true professional tour such as this would not require the players to pay entry fees into the events and prize purses would come from both corperate sponsorship from Diamond Billiards, Simonis, perhaps a casino company such as MGM Mirage or Las Vegas Sands, ect... along with a cut from the league fees from the BCAPL. I would have no issue paying $1 more per a week for pool league if something like this existed, I have an outside chance to one day cash high in Vegas and gain a tour card for that $20 a year and it is 1/4 the price of a single beer I end up drinking each week at league. If every single player in the BCAPL paid $1 more a week that is alot of money into the pool (no pun intended) to get something like this off the ground.

On one issue he is already one step ahead of you...

In the new USAPL league being done by CSI $0.50 from each players weekly fee goes into a fund to both add money to pro events as well as to help sponsor pro players. With the ultimate goal is that the pro players who the USAPL helps sponsor will give back to USAPL leagues by doing demos, autograph sessions, etc etc etc.

What the ultimate goal is, I haven't a clue, but it's a start in a positive direction IMHO....

Brian

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The frog and tadpole jump cues by Robin Dodson use hard as hell WB tips, and I cant really tell much difference. They jump as good as any other jump cue with or without a "plastic" tip.


Joe

Compared to the Predator Air, or any other cue that features a phenolic tip, they are a mere shadow, in terms of jump performance, to the other cues. Do a search on here for Stealth Air Time, and see how many people thought it was good with the factory tip (water buffalo), but then switched the tip to phenolic or Picone White Diamonds, and the performance shot through the roof. I would take a conservative guess that of the jump cues in player's bags, that 98% of them have a phenolic tip.

 

[Celtic]

On one issue he is already one step ahead of you...

In the new USAPL league being done by CSI $0.50 from each players weekly fee goes into a fund to both add money to pro events as well as to help sponsor pro players. With the ultimate goal is that the pro players who the USAPL helps sponsor will give back to USAPL leagues by doing demos, autograph sessions, etc etc etc.

What the ultimate goal is, I haven't a clue, but it's a start in a positive direction IMHO....

Brian

I did not know that. Now the next step is to work on making an official professional tour and classification for professional players. It does not have to start off huge, it can be 2 or 3 events in the first year even, one being the Championship that takes place at the BCAPL event in May, the people invited to that event to play for free being the players that qualify for it through the BCAPL (and of course professional player distinctions made based on past results and known ability for that first year, to be followed in the future by the qualification process and maintaining of ranking points).

The main sponsership of professional players I would like to see is the start of professional events requiring a tour card to play in and in turn not in fact having a entry fee. The professional players should not have to front up a entry fee to play in an event, getting that tour card in the first place should be where the money is spent. You have to pay your dues to play at the low level in any sport and get good, but when you get there in almost any sport you are then paid to play, not fronting up a large entry fee hoping to win it back and then some. Pool can do the same, Mark is in the best position by far to make it take place, but not in a small way giving money to other organizations or tours or players, he needs to use the framework of the BCAPL and build the tour from that, a true pro tour that in time become the professional pool tour, the only one in America, the MLB or NHL of pool. IMO that is the biggest problem in pool atm, there is no true professional tour and everything is fragmented, we need a true one and only professional tour and noone out there right now has the ability to do it or has the ability to do a proper qualification system except the BCAPL.

 

[mikeyfrost]

First I think you find way more damaged cue balls from people hitting them off the table into chairs, hard flooring, or other objects, look how easily a cue ball is scratched. You also have players that slam the balls or throw the balls or whatever. My only point is I'd wager wear and tear on equipment and human interaction has a lot more to do with the problem than a phenolic tip. People who believe this usually don't own or have never owned phenolic tipped cues.

Secondly...I just wanted to say that, I'm gonna duck out of the line of fire. I just think people are way harder on the equipment than a tip on a cue ever could be.

 

[snipershot]

Compared to the Predator Air, or any other cue that features a phenolic tip, they are a mere shadow, in terms of jump performance, to the other cues. Do a search on here for Stealth Air Time, and see how many people thought it was good with the factory tip (water buffalo), but then switched the tip to phenolic or Picone White Diamonds, and the performance shot through the roof. I would take a conservative guess that of the jump cues in player's bags, that 98% of them have a phenolic tip.

I have a Jacoby jump cue with a g-10 tip that is a lot of fun to jump with, and it is the easiest jumper Ive ever used, but to me, its easier because of the handle design. I like to spear jump, and it has that nice little notch for that. I can jump just as good though with just the shaft from my playing cue with a Moori hard tip, of course that is illegal, lol. Back to my original point, if you press a WB tip down, like the ones on the frog and tadpole, I cant really tell any difference. Have you ever tried one? I have some playing cues with WB tips on them that play great, but the tips on Robin's cues are significantly harder than what I play with.



Joe

 

[greyghost]

Yes just because it only has a 92 on the hardness scale and a ball is 94...its not a scratch test like a diamond on glass...that hard of an obj on another obj that is 2 points harder...would seem like there could be enough pressure there to cause some damage, maybe not quick...maybe it would take a year of pounding but you do make sense on that.

G.G.

 

[gulyassy]

LOL. Ask any room owner which balls from a set need to be replaced, in terms of specific balls. Most replaced, due to damage - cue ball. Second most damaged ball - 1 ball, if there is a lot of 9ball play in the room. So, his explanation is correct.

So am I correct in assuming that you refer to the balls do damage balls. Now if this is correct then what do you think a material like glass would do to a cue ball as opposed to canvas. Do you think that the glass might have more effect than canvas? Glass is very hard and canvas compared is definitely much softer than the balls or the glass. Glass is the material that is combined with the phenolic to make the G10, the canvas is combined with the phenolic to make my material. Even at a slower speed and less mass the material that is hitting the cue ball is very hard and very abrasive.

 

[greyghost]

No doubt Grey, you could be a strong player and I don't mind losing to a strong player. My point is there are pro players who have totally accepted the jump cue and they still kick and play safe, nothing has been compromised. Oh, I have seen Earl pull out a jumper in a match before! Yes I know he doesn't like them but I've seen it.

I don't think "totally accepted" is the whole truth, it's like going into a gun fight with a knife. Of course they are going to use a jump cue when the money is on the line and its legal at the moment, of course they're going to level the playing field.

G.G.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

So am I correct in assuming that you refer to the balls do damage balls. Now if this is correct then what do you think a material like glass would do to a cue ball as opposed to canvas. Do you think that the glass might have more effect than canvas? Glass is very hard and canvas compared is definitely much softer than the balls or the glass. Glass is the material that is combined with the phenolic to make the G10, the canvas is combined with the phenolic to make my material. Even at a slower speed and less mass the material that is hitting the cue ball is very hard and very abrasive.

Mike, give it up. I'll give you an example VERY CLOSE to what we're talking about. Bone is harder than maple. If I was to put your hand on a table, and hit it with a maple rod as fast as I could swing it, it would do damage to your hand. How much damage depends on a few things - the mass of the object being swung, and the speed I can swing it. If I took a little switch weighing a few ounces and hit your hand (weighing more than a few ounces, and your bones having a higher strength on the shore scale), I could possibly break skin, but do no damage to your skeletal structure. Now, let's up the weight and the speed. Let's take a 1" maple dowel, weighing 14 ounces, and swing it at your hand as hard as it can be swung. You would have compound fractures in your hand and fingers, even though the material that broke the bones is softer than the bones themselves.

Ever seen a golf ball break a window in a car at the golf course? SPEED and MASS. If it's moving fast enough (the break tip) at a stationary object (the cueball), the surface of the object being hit will give. Seeing as no human can generate enough force to shatter a cueball, we will never see catastrophic damage done to whitey. However, I have seen a ton of the smiley face marks on my Centennial cue ball from my Sledgehammer that had a phenolic tip on it. Since I changed cueballs and started breaking with a leather tip, there are no more smiley faces. That proves to me that the phenolic does damage the cueball.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I have a Jacoby jump cue with a g-10 tip that is a lot of fun to jump with, and it is the easiest jumper Ive ever used, but to me, its easier because of the handle design. I like to spear jump, and it has that nice little notch for that. I can jump just as good though with just the shaft from my playing cue with a Moori hard tip, of course that is illegal, lol. Back to my original point, if you press a WB tip down, like the ones on the frog and tadpole, I cant really tell any difference. Have you ever tried one? I have some playing cues with WB tips on them that play great, but the tips on Robin's cues are significantly harder than what I play with.



Joe

I have tried pretty much every jump cue on the planet. I've even made a few different designs myself. The key to a jump cue is mass, and a really hard tip. It's not exactly rocket science. If you want to clear balls really close to the cue ball, you want extremely light, and as short as possible (as thin as possible helps reduce the mass, too). For longer jumps, you want some mass, and a longer cue (thicker butt diameter helps here). I have used the Jacoby - they make a great cue. Here's the point I was trying to make that you missed. Let's say you give me your playing cue, or anyone's playing cue, for that matter. A draw stroke or a follow stroke is a skill shot. As long as the tip on the cue is in reasonable shape, I will be able to draw the ball with that cue. I may not like the hit, but I have yet to play with a cue that did not allow me to hit shots with follow or draw. Now, let's talk about the jump cue. The jump cue ONLY works with a ROCK HARD tip on it. If I cut the G-10 tip off your Jacoby jumper, and replaced it with an Elkmaster, could you jump with it? If it's a skill, it shouldn't matter what material is on the end of the cue. I can draw, follow and masse with a hard Moori, or a soft Elkmaster, or a medium Le Pro. I can jump EXTREMELY well with a phenolic tip. Change it to leather, I lose a lot of shots I could make with the plastic tips.

If the tip gives you the skill, it's a prop. It is not a skill. Look at the pro players before the phenolic tips came out. They went to the jump cue here and there, and the shot had to be in a particular "range" for the jump to be effective. There were also "landing zones", as balls near rails nearly guaranteed the cueball would fly off the table due to the force required to jump with the leather tips. Those days are long gone.

 

[vasilios]

Mr. Mike

how do you go about compiling your material specifications. you post numbers that i am not aware of. plus you use a general grouping for the materials. it is true that phenolic and g-10 are thermoset composites. but they are two completly differant animals. the rockwell of g-10 is 110 and the rockwell of ce and L phenolic is 105. if you go to saluc and check their materials page you will see that the phenolic that they use for the aramith balls ranges from 77-90 rockwell. depending on the quality of ball.i did a pic from their sight to show their info.

bill

 

[phillyslim99]

Well it looks like I indeed offended you and I appologize. I don't understand why you are getting so hostile regarding the jump stick, with underlined insults towards the players that use them. I don't think any player would avoid learning kicking and what not just to reach for a jumper, if that were the case they would just be cheating themselves and never become better players.

My logic is that many, many pros have accepted and integrated the jumpstick into their games while still kicking and playing safe, the legitimacy of the game itself has not been corrupted, come on. If a lesser player then yourself pots his way out of your safety with a jumper because he is better at it then kicking then so be it! Let it be.

Look, you may be a very high caliber player and I respect your game even though I have never spoken to you but you just sound bitter. If you're indeed a pro calibre player then you are a minority amongst your peers.

Take care

Jaw 725 - No need for an apology - I am not offended or bitter. However, I did want to point out some of flawed logic in your arguments. I tried to do it in a humorous way as best I could.

The phenolic tip has become commonplace fairly recently (last ten years or less). In my opinion, it is just BAD for the game because someone who has played for 6 months is ENCOURAGED to believe they outplayed a better player by jumping with a novelty cue or tip. My feeling is that I learned the game from better players who put me in situations that made me think. I understand your reasoning for the "easier" solution, but we can improve players, in general, by making them think about a variety of options (kicking vs full cue jump shot) rather than using the "easy answer".

-Philly

 

[Celtic]

So am I correct in assuming that you refer to the balls do damage balls. Now if this is correct then what do you think a material like glass would do to a cue ball as opposed to canvas. Do you think that the glass might have more effect than canvas? Glass is very hard and canvas compared is definitely much softer than the balls or the glass. Glass is the material that is combined with the phenolic to make the G10, the canvas is combined with the phenolic to make my material. Even at a slower speed and less mass the material that is hitting the cue ball is very hard and very abrasive.

And how in the heck are they going to enforce the rule if they ban fiberglass phenolic while allowing canvas phenolic? Am I supposed to bring my hand lens and a hardness tester to each match now and ask my opponent if I might run some tests on his tip before he takes that jump shot he was about to shoot?

Instead how about being simple, Phenolic = illegal, leather = legal.

There, easy to notice a phenolic vs leather tip and keep things moving instead of trying to determine if that is legal phenolic or maybe a fiberglass/canvas hybrid phenolic of hardness 94.862 that is 0.946 over the limit of the average red triangle cueball stress withstandability based on the top 10th percent of breaking speed in the BCAPL masters division.

Who gives a crap if your phenolic is walking a fine line between cueball damage, trying to differentiate your phenolic to other phenolics that might be on a cue during an event is laughable, it would be a ruling clusterf..k.

As a player no bloody thanks, I want to play pool not micromanage calling the ref based on whether that chalk is the correct shade of blue allowed in the event.

Cripe, what a dumb thread.