Sick of all the infighting

[lfigueroa]

I'll chime in on another subject of money and tournaments, but on the local/regional level...

Pool players are cheap.

While not a room owner, I have a good friend who is. I keep trying to get him host some regional tournaments but he refuses because they are money losers. The tours have him put up $1k added and they get a bunch of people in the room. He has to bring in extra staff to handle the crowd. Say you get 64 people to enter. About 20 of them will be buying food/booze. The other 40+ people will be ordering cokes and waters all day. If you watch you'll see them all leaving right after they play a match to run down the street to McD's or the convience store to buy snacks/drinks and sneak them back in.

Now if the folks who showed up for regional tour events supported the rooms the way league players do (ie. buying lots of booze and food) I think we'd be a lot better off. Or, if the room owners didn't have to try to pony up $1k and hope to get that back.

Brian

Well, there's another great point: pool players are cheap.

Put a tournament at the far reaches of Texas, with the built-in travel expenses getting to that far off point creates; have high entry fees; $149 a night rooms; and a first time event for which you are not responsive to questions from players and fans on the biggest pool forum in the world, and you are going to have a problem or three with your event.

Lou Figueroa

 

[woody_968]

Pool needs to increase the grass roots for support.

On the flip side, a large percentage of members here and top players have a distinct disdain for league pool and it's members.

To increase the participation level everyone involved must take a little ownership, come out of the shadows and backrooms, be a spokesman and demonstrate a willingness to be somewhat of an ambassador of the sport.

Room owners need to provide free lessons for kids,with discounted pool rates. Promote leagues, create events and enthusiasim that merit attendence.

Aw, hell with it, just go on hustling the willing and the weak, it's been that way since I can remember.


PS...Huge kudos to the sponsors, streamers, commentators, contributors and everyone involved with the recent up swing in live streaming...this is a GOOD step in the right direction. I would encourage all to put their consumer dollars behind those that make this possible!!!

Great post Rooster!

It takes everyones involvement. And that includes not bashing leagues and or the people that play in them. Once in a while I fall victim and join in on the complaints about certain leagues, but for the most part I try and encourage those that choose to participate.

I have often said that one of the biggest killers of pool rooms are the small time want to be hustlers. They will pick on the new players by claiming they will gamble with them cheap so they can learn. Then pick their pockets for 20 to 50 everytime the new player comes into the room. It doesnt take long for the new player to find something else to do with their time.

We as players need to pick areas that we feel we can make a change. Is it going to make a big difference tomorrow? No. But its a start. You offer a great list of things that we could start doing. Like not bashing league players, you dont have to play, but you dont have to put down those that do either. Being friendly to knew players. Offering tips or advise when asked.

Pool rooms are about the environment. If it was just about playing pool more people would have tables in their homes. But its not just the pool, its the people, the woofing, the friendships, the enemy's, the victory's, the losses, the sweating, the betting, its the whole package. Are we all doing what we can to make the package better than what people can get down the street?

Woody <---- stepped away from pool due to work and personal issues, now doesnt have a decent room to go back to!

 

[Fatboy]

Why does everyone really care about how big pool is? Does it really matter?


everyone seems to be looking for a payday and the mentality of "if pool is bigger, i'll make more $$$" is just a pipe dream. There is only so much $$$ to go around. I enjoy it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is gonna get rich playing/promoting pool in our lifetimes. And that aint a bad thing-is it?

 

[miplayerstour]

professional organization and .......

tournament participation and payouts are huge hurdles, especially in a sport where many have allowed themselves to believe no change will or can be made so take what they can get.

Hustling is a way of life for many players, its how they survive and many wont take a second to change that because it takes away from their games and they dont think it will change anyway. Its a bad situation and difficult to get out of.

The organization MUST happen and yes, there has to be some sort of fee and it is because the work cannot be done pro bono because it takes a lot of know how, effort and time. The membership fees shouldnt break the bank by any means but should make the membership seem valuable. In return for the membership fee, I firmly beleive that making certain tournaments payout as advertised, offering marketing tips and help to players, promoting events to the players and giving the players a voice are all vital. I would disagree with anyone if they would turn the organization into one that sanctions certain events and requires players to attend one over another or be fined....this doesnt help pool or promoters or players in any way. I do beleive rules should be in place and fines should be established for unsportsmanlike conduct in severe cases so players come off as more professional and more marketable.

The organization whatever it is, should be the voice of the players and should work with the industry to help find advertising dollars, sponsors etc. Thsi is all worth a membership fee in my opinion and without this, i dont think there will be enough players to band together and make the effort to make this happen. Theyre too busy trying to make a living to take the time to think about their future unfortunately.

What will it take to get this goin? Someone that is business saavy, has connections, knows marketing and has a drive to succeed even when others wish that you fail. A thankless job is what this would be until its proven to work. Its very difficult to get anyone to want to do something thats needed when the very people that need it dont take action.

Higher dollars for pool wont be seen consistantly until it is organized and more marketable to a wider audience. This comes from marketing marketing marketing and some may call it selling out but using gimmicks and doing whatever it takes to get more viewers and more players is key.

Does anyone want to put their hat into the ring? Is the indistry ready to FULLY support and ASSIST this person/organization even in difficult times because there will be some challenges.

Until the players AND the industry as a whole unites in a sense, any real hope of taking pool mainstream and making it earn more moeny for anyone is unlikely and we'll be having this conversation again next year and for the next 20.

 

[woody_968]

Why does everyone really care about how big pool is? Does it really matter?


everyone seems to be looking for a payday and the mentality of "if pool is bigger, i'll make more $$$" is just a pipe dream. There is only so much $$$ to go around. I enjoy it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is gonna get rich playing/promoting pool in our lifetimes. And that aint a bad thing-is it?

Thats a good point, but I would say the majority on here arent looking for pool to grow so we can profit. Would I like to be able to make a living playing or teaching pool? Sure. But at this stage its more about wanting pool to grow for pools sake, and so that we have more opportunities to enjoy the game by both watching and playing.

I live in a town where big table pool is all but dead. Our best room has closed its doors and the only room left doesnt care about pool or its players. Its not a huge town, but in a town of 70 to 80 thousand people you would think there would be enough interest to support one good poolroom.

Pool gaining in popularity would mean more rooms, bigger tournaments on a local level, and just more people to play and enjoy the game with.

For our town, pool in its current state is pretty sad. For me to start playing again Im looking at an hour drive one way to get to decent tables.

 

[Maniac]

The way they had things structured at Galveston, there was little appeal for the amateur, and that's why they got a low turnout -- which was, by the way, totally predictable.

Lou Figueroa

I for one think that a lot of tournaments need to amend and redefine what constitutes being an "amateur" (especially the GWC). I briefly considered entering the "amateur" event in Galveston until I saw a thread here on AZB concerning what the guidelines were to be considered an "amateur" (thanks Ray!!!). After reading these guidelines/qualifications I decided that I wasn't about to lay out a $200 entry fee just to have my head handed to me by what basically would be considered a "pro" my most peoples standards. I mean, Geez, give us little guys/gals a break!!!

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

Why does everyone really care about how big pool is? Does it really matter?


everyone seems to be looking for a payday and the mentality of "if pool is bigger, i'll make more $$$" is just a pipe dream. There is only so much $$$ to go around. I enjoy it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is gonna get rich playing/promoting pool in our lifetimes. And that aint a bad thing-is it?

I'm gonna tell y'all, this is pretty much the way I feel about it. I just never said so (too afraid of getting my a**hole ripped by flamers). Thanks Fatboy for telling it like it is (no, I'm not "sucking-up to Fatboy looking for a handout :grin.

Ya know, there are many other things that people do on this planet that takes work, skill, athleticism, blood, sweat, and tears (Ballroom Dancing comes to mind) that never get a big payday for doing it. Why do so many poolplayers think they are so deserving of big money???

Maniac

 

[unknownpro]

Why does everyone really care about how big pool is? Does it really matter?


everyone seems to be looking for a payday and the mentality of "if pool is bigger, i'll make more $$$" is just a pipe dream. There is only so much $$$ to go around. I enjoy it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is gonna get rich playing/promoting pool in our lifetimes. And that aint a bad thing-is it?

Yes, that would be a bad thing, if it were true. Bump bump bump.

Why should pool players be any poorer than golfers and basketball players?

 

[Scott Lee]

Dick...To be perfectly accurate, the PBA was bankrupt, and going down the tubes, just a few years ago, until Paul Allen (a Microsoft founder, and billionaire) BOUGHT the PBA, and invested a good chunk of change, to get it back on solid ground. So...again, it's going to take someone with deep pockets, to create, organize and maintain a professional player's organization. The first step is hiring someone in charge, who is NOT a poolplayer, but IS a businessman! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Google the PBA, and you'll be surprised. They were formed only a few years before the first Johnston City tournament. (1959) They started on a shoestring, 30-40 guy's chipping in. But they held it together, and they're still around today.

It's a rotton shame that we have so much more to offer, than such a comparatively boring sport as bowling (sorry bowler's) and yet they had the foresight to create an entity that surpasses anything YET done in Pro Pool.

Who knows where its going now...if anywhere.

 

[Scott Lee]

Tap, tap, tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This is what I knew would start to happen. It was not "a few hundred thousand". It was promised to be $185,000 + and to the best of my knowledge (still doing numbers) around $80,000 was paid out that didnt come from entry fees.

If you want to make the "At least they are doing something" argument I will listen but let's keep what actually happened in mind.

If anyone says "Couple hundred grand or $80,000 whats the difference? Its a lot of money." Please just go ahead and ship me $120,000 because honestly whats the difference?

 

[Scott Lee]

Eric...I have to diagree with you here, as a point. There are a FEW who have become rich...but certainly not a large percentage of the group. Jack White is a millionaire from playing pool...so is Efren. Certainly there are a few others. I make a nice living...but do it teaching and entertaining (and travel 200 days a year to do it).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Nobody is gonna get rich playing/promoting pool in our lifetimes. And that aint a bad thing-is it?

 

[Mark Griffin]

keep it going

I am bumping this to keep up some of the GOOD input on how to make things happen.

I have a special interest in this topic. And I am hoping someone comes up with a workable, intelligent and thoughtout partial answer to the current situation.

So - let's stay on topic and . . . . .

Mark Griffin

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Why does everyone really care about how big pool is? Does it really matter?


everyone seems to be looking for a payday and the mentality of "if pool is bigger, i'll make more $$$" is just a pipe dream. There is only so much $$$ to go around. I enjoy it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is gonna get rich playing/promoting pool in our lifetimes. And that aint a bad thing-is it?

Interesting point coming from someone who is quick to point out that they're best buds with Johnny Archer.

I can see where anyone outside of full time players would think "so what, why does it matter?" but I can't see a full time pro player having the same mentality.

The mentality of higher payouts probably comes from the other things like golf, baseball, racing, and football that most of us do on the weekends for fun but where the "pros" of that recreational event are paid millions.

 

[watchez]

I think it will take a businessman not a pool player to make pool 'happen'. KT was obviously the wrong choice. And even though Shannon and a few others run fine tours, just because you can draw your ball it doesn't mean that you are qualified to organize the pool world. At best, a player-businessman combo would be as far as I would stretch it.

Very few commisioners and general managers in sports have a professional background playing in their sports. Of course there are always exceptions. Jerry West has had success. Isiah Thomas has not. Matt Millen is a fine example of what can happen when a player thinks because he can tackle a running back, he can also run an NFL franchise.

A businessman is needed who can think beyond getting from Monday to Friday. If money is to be profited from organizing pool, it needs to be reinvested to grow the model. Unfortunately, and I might be attacked for this, most pool players don't understand this.

BTW Mark G. - check your rep.

 

[Ruark]

The reason big name companies are not beating the door of pool down to "Advertise" is because they don't feel there would be a return on their investment. Look at NASCAR.

A fundamental point. Likewise, a pool match won't sell 80,000 seats in a stadium at $50 a pop, or TV commercial time at $100,000 a minute. People just aren't interested in watching it.

Further, most people don't understand the rules and vagaries of the game well enough to appreciate what's going on - all the banking, english, shot setups, etc. Even if they did, on a TV screen it's often not possible to identify which ball's being played, unless you're so hardcore you can identify it by color, so most viewers really won't know what the **** is going on in a televised pool match.

Even if we did have big-time sponsors, you might ask yourselves how you would feel about players wearing shirts plastered with sponsor patches.

 

[miplayerstour]

very true

A business person is EXACTLY whats needed and although there are some pool players out there doing a fine job marketing themselves and running themselves as businesses, there is much more they could do if they had more business experience and connections.

It takes knowledge of the sport for certain but being good at it has nothing to do with making it work as a profit center for everyone involved.

I think the organization has to come first..................if it can offer marketing tools as I've said before, training for the players to market themselves, advertising for players and events.....almost acting as their agent in a sense and could for a percentage of profits I suppose as a side business and at some point, basic health insurance, this would draw almost every single player to participate. It isnt just for high end pros this should be geared towards all players short stops included.

If they shoot pool for a living this organization is for them and they woould represent the organization accordingly at events, amateur and pro alike.

There are thousands upon thousands of potential members if there is benefit and there is many and it would take me hours to type them all out that I have considered.

If mark is interested in any of this he is free to contact me otherwise consider it rambling from an old schooler.

Organization comes first then marketing then players then more marketing then money. That is the order needed to make this work.

And last but not least, there should be a voice of the players so a player member board or something of the like to discuss tournaments, concerns etc. Players high end pro, mid and low as well as amatuer.

Mark, with what youre working on with the leagues, its a perfect tie in to gain members. There could be other benefits that league players would eat up and be glad to pay a membership fee as a non pro or non player member.

As you can tell, im pretty opinionated about this subject and I always have a lot to say about it.

 

[bfdlad]

I think it will take a businessman not a pool player to make pool 'happen'. KT was obviously the wrong choice. And even though Shannon and a few others run fine tours, just because you can draw your ball it doesn't mean that you are qualified to organize the pool world. At best, a player-businessman combo would be as far as I would stretch it.

Very few commisioners and general managers in sports have a professional background playing in their sports. Of course there are always exceptions. Jerry West has had success. Isiah Thomas has not. Matt Millen is a fine example of what can happen when a player thinks because he can tackle a running back, he can also run an NFL franchise.

A businessman is needed who can think beyond getting from Monday to Friday. If money is to be profited from organizing pool, it needs to be reinvested to grow the model. Unfortunately, and I might be attacked for this, most pool players don't understand this.

BTW Mark G. - check your rep.

I think you are right on the money. Although Imay be a little biased here, Mark Griffin obviously would be a solid choice to take on something like this. Business sense (proven) a love for the game (proven) willing to stick his own neck and wallet out to help the sport (Proven) and a all round honest guy that pays when he says he will pay even if it makes him go into the red on a deal. QOlymics for example. I would just hope that the players would see the benefits and support it 100%.

 

[Maniac]

Why should pool players be any poorer than golfers and basketball players?

Because in the "big picture", pool players get what they deserve. Golfers and basketball players get MORE than they deserve (as do football, baseball, hockey, etc. players too). IMO, nobody in ANY sport should be millionaires or even ever see a big payday when you consider the salaries of REALLY important people (soldiers, teachers, policemen, firemen, etc.). What in the heck is so darn important about a poolplayer that he/she could be so much more deserving of a big payday as opposed to the really important people in the world? I think that so many people on this forum love pool so much that they let their emotions about the game cloud their judgement. Don't get me wrong, I love the game of pool as much as anyone on this forum (heck, I have my own pool table and shoot in leagues three nights a week), but I just don't see where a very good pool player (and the world is rife with "very good" pool players) is deserving of big paydays.

Like I said in a previous post, unless pool can ever get on primetime television and sustain decent ratings (i.e. television $$$), there will never be big paydays in pool unless some promoter is willing to LOSE some big bucks. I can't see pool ever being popular to the general public on television. Too boring to the non poolplaying viewers. Heck, it must not be to entertaining to the ardent poolplayer judging by the turnout of spectators at big tournaments here in the States.

There is no "quick-fix" for pools problems. Possibly no fix at all. Too much greed, and too many inflated egos, IMO!!!

Maniac

 

[Blackjack]

I am bumping this to keep up some of the GOOD input on how to make things happen.

I have a special interest in this topic. And I am hoping someone comes up with a workable, intelligent and thoughtout partial answer to the current situation.

So - let's stay on topic and . . . . .

Mark Griffin

Mark,
The major problem is that "tournament pool" does not and will not capture any audience.

I have said for years that very few of us (if any) fell in love with the game of pool by watching a 64 player tournament.

We need to look within ourselves and find out what it was that attracted us to the game of pool - what made us fall in love with the sound of the balls clicking together - hitting the back of the pockets - and then traveling down the subway.

Find out what it was that attracted our eyes, our minds and our hearts, and then bottle it up.

For most of us, it was the action that surrounded the game. For years we have been told that it is a bad thing, but if handled properly by the right people and marketing it correctly, it can be used as a magnet for fans. More viewers = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money.

Just ditch the long drawn out tournaments and have 1 on 1 matchups like TAR is doing already, but add in a sense of continuity for those who win - and make it worth the time and energy for those that lose.

If you win, you become King of the Hill. Each week, you must defend your spot by putting up at least 50% of what you have won so far. The challengers that play the King of the Hill will have to qualify through 3 rounds of 5-man ring games to build up their challenge purse. Each ring game round has a buy in, as well as winner's purse put up by a sponsor. You can have different sponsors for each round, or we can just find a rich uncle. I say diversify and expand - never put your eggs in one basket.

If you lose the King of the Hill match, you have to start all over again, but you are allowed to reserve a % of what you won in the ring games for yourself.

You also receive an appearance fee paid for by a title sponsor. You go back to the bottom with some cash in your pocket, some exposure, and the drive to get back to the top of the mountain to win the BIG CASH.

This ensures a different challenger every week - perhaps a different champion every week.

Of course the financing will have to be worked out, but if this system test-run in a smaller market, such as Phoenix or Dallas, we can iron the kinks before it is taken to the national and global level.

We are infamous for putting the cart before the horse. Something such as this would work if we got our shitt together first, instead of planing the event and getting our shitt together as the event unfolds - thsi goes for any idea, not just mine.

This post is not all there is to my idea. There is so much that has to happen before this could ever get off of the ground, and that is where the growing pains come in.

That is my idea - whether or not anybody will invest in it is up for debate. Like I said, I would like to try and test run this in a local market and improve upon it gradually with the intent of expanding it to the national market.

 

[btoneill]

This may be a little long, but I have a lot of opinions...

First on the idea of a players organization... This has both it's plus sides and it's down sides. It could be a win for the players but at the same time it can be a major down side for the industry. Just look at the strangle hold that the players unions in MLB/NFL/NHL/etc have on the teams. As a promoter, would you really want to have to deal with such a group and be held hostage by them? IMHO the only way a players group would work is if they run the whole show including running of all the tournaments. But, the hard part would be keeping their own "members" from playing in non-sanctioned tournaments, because once again, IMHO the group would lose any value it has if they let their members play anywhere. So, in order for this group to get started, it would need a boat load of cash to fund it's tournaments for a year or two and it would have to have a lot of them. I just don't see this as happening as the major players I don't think would agree to it and I don't see the person putting up the money getting much in return...

Now, on how to get the top players to actually make enough money to live on... I think pool needs someone to step up and create a tour with a hybrid compensation model. The tour would actually hire top players and pay them a salary. Everyone on the tour gets the same money. The players would still be playing for prize money, but that would be bonus money. The tour would also provide lodging/travel/etc for the players. What the tour would get out of this is having guaranteed top players showing up to annual scheduled tour stops across the country. Once again this would take money and time, but there would be a payout at the end. Once you can have a predictable tour schedule and build a fan base the sponsors will come. To help build fan interest (and to find new talent) you would have X number of spots at each stop that are for non-touring pros. Say a month before the stop in city Y you have a series of qualifying tournaments at say $30/entry. You win the qualifier you win entry to the tournament. You keep the cost down to get more people to try their hand for fun instead of pricing the casual strong league players out of it. 128 entries at $30/head is much better then 32 entries at $70. If the tour is associated with a league, it could even be made part of that leagues city/regional tournament system.

As for the big "tournaments" I really like Mark's NCS idea. But I do think there need to be some tweaks. The first one is that while I really like Mark's idea that everyone has to play to qualify, that is going to keep a lot of players away from the qualifiers if they hear that Johnny Archer is going to be playing in it. I also don't like the idea of "invitations" to to players to tournaments as it gets abused and people will always point fingers and feel slighted. Instead I think that the top 16 or 32 (depending on how big the tournament gets) finishers are automatically qualified for the next year and the top 8 are also given a travel stipend/hotel room for the next years tournament. I also think that everyone who qualifies at a local qualifier should get hotel paid for as well (travel is up to them). How do you pay for this? Well, you pay for it via all the local/regional qualifiers. For qualifiers you have it be like $20 which would be an 8 man bracket. They could be run for months at local halls. The local brackets winner would go to a city/regional bracket, which would have 16 people in it. That would have $1920 of money to have funded that bracket. Take say $200 out for admin costs and like $100 for t-shirts for qualifiers for the city/regionals, that leaves $1620 to fund, which could add $1k to the tournament and $620 to pay for the hotel. This smaller method would bring in a lot more hopefuls who would be happy just to make it to qualify for the 2nd round. Plus, by paying the hotel, you keep the players in the host hotel, which keeps the host hotel happy by keeping the players money in the hotel, which helps keep the costs down for the event. This method would also draw a lot more publicity for the event on a national level as you'd have posters and such up all over the country for local bar owners who want to run qualifiers.

Basically, I think for there to be any money in pool in this country it needs to be funded by recreational players. The only way that will happen is to dangle a carrot in front of them and give them a chance to get it at a low cost ($15-20). These are also the same people our potential sponsors want to get in front of. To be honest, why would McDermott want to sponsor a tour that is only watched by people who wouldn't buy a production cue if their life depended on it? Such a system would also create the "hometown heros" that people would want to pay attention to.

That's my $0.02 for now, I'm sure I'll have some more change to donate later


Brian