What does it take to become a Champion?
- Thread starter tigerseye
- Start date
See? This is what i am talking about.
What's the purpose in insulting him? I don't think he has insulted you once.
And I really doubt you know anybody that has put in 20,000 hours of practice, John. That's 7.5 years of practice, 8 hours a day with no breaks for Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Furthermore, i doubt you know many people at all that even put in more than 5000 hours. Do it over a 60 year playing career does not count, John. For us normal mortals, it has to be day after day.
And this article coincides with EVERYTHING I have ever learned read about human psychology/achievement as it pertains to things we have a natural aptitude for.
Professional guitarists... No special hand/eye coordination required. They achieved professional quality play in about 2 years of practice, 8-12 hours a day. (Roughly 10,000 hours)
Professional dancers... About 2 years of practice... 8-12 hours a day..
Professional Golfer..It is well documented that Tiger practiced no less than 6 hours a day for years before he went pro. As in...More than 2 years.
Pool is a game where normal hand/eye coordination is sufficient for probably 90% of the shots, John. You don't need to be able to read an eye chart from 100 feet away to cut a 45 degree cut shot 7 feet away.
Practice can (and does) overcome a lack of the top 10% on physical abilities.
And please, if you are being honest, please give us some examples of players you PERSONALLY know that have practiced 10 hours a day for two years straight and are not fantastic players.
I just don't believe it..Sorry.
Russ
tom351
Registered
he just naturally switching modes....that happens when you continually try telling someone how it is and they continue to disagree because they dont like the answer....even though the answer is based on reality....
I guess you guys are right, I mean John is a world class player and I have no idea who you are tom (sry lol) so I should be listening to Johns input, hes been there done that.
I hope you don't have any hard feelings John :grin-square:
I agree that there are many that have played for 30 years or more and have totaled much more that 20,000 hours but still are no better than an A player at most. I'm talking about people that are intelligent and bright in many other areas. They stayed with the game because they love it and always had aspirations of becoming better at it.
I have played all my life and have a lot of hours behind me but could never qualify myself as a true champion. I love the game and elevated it to my potential, but on a consistent basis not good enough to beat the real champions. I believe that if you are not born with that ingredient to be a champion you will not find it in life.
The true champions have an ability to consistently find the pocket in their mind and to be able to couple that with the all the other things required to make the shot work.
Pool is not like an arcade game that we can set the dial to just give us shots within our range, It will give us the same shots that it gives the champions. The very difficult ones that the champions make and others don't.
If all it took was hard work then we all would be champions.
Oh this one was easy.. Because they quit practicing. They thought they were good enough. Or, they didn't know what else to practice.
I've met a lot of pool players like this. In fact, I just showed a player last night (this player had recently run a 5 pack on a Diamond Pro/Am) the benefit of physically slowing down his stroke on some shots.
He practices sh*t that is NOT gonna take him to the next level. I showed him how a slow controlled stroke can get action on the CB that just cannot be gotten with a firmer (faster) stroke.
I have just provided him fuel for at LEAST another 200-300 hours, if not much more.
The additional 2000 hours, if you find the RIGHT things to practice after you've mastered what you practiced the first 8000 hours, is what separates the good players from the truly GREAT players.
An example would be that low "zinger" shot that Tiger shoots when he wants to keep a low ball flight path. (I think it is with a 2 iron? I don't play golf) Its a shot that a lot of mid tier pros never even thought to practice, but Tiger probably shaves a stroke off every two or three times he plays a course... All by having one extra shot.
Efren has his 'ping" shot, where he cuts in a shot close to the rail and crawls two rails out into the center of the table, where other pros have to cut the ball in and go two rails up and back.
Efren doesn't just use "physical talent" to make that shot consistently.. he practices it like a demon. And that is what separates him from the field.
Superpros have an unusual hatred of losing, and I think this is what drives a lot of them to practice shots the rest of us see as superfluous. They feel an overpowering NEED to be able to execute whatever they imagine.
Russ
hi
yes hes insulted me and why are you not a fantastic player by now.youve practiced enough.hell half the womans tour have played as much as me and need the 6ball.
honestly none of this matters because i know what it takes and how good you have to be.so what gatz says or you doesnt change much.
actually years ago you said you knocked out a wall and got a table.that was a few years ago.are you a champion yet .
trying to analyze me or scold me isnt going to work russ. i know the truth about this stuff and frankly get annoyed when im told otherwise by guys who cant play .
yes hes insulted me and why are you not a fantastic player by now.youve practiced enough.hell half the womans tour have played as much as me and need the 6ball.
honestly none of this matters because i know what it takes and how good you have to be.so what gatz says or you doesnt change much.
actually years ago you said you knocked out a wall and got a table.that was a few years ago.are you a champion yet .
trying to analyze me or scold me isnt going to work russ. i know the truth about this stuff and frankly get annoyed when im told otherwise by guys who cant play .
spot on frank,now be ready for 20 rebuttles
I'm a bit skeptical
Many things I like to do and do well. I like to sing too. However I have been tone deaf all of my life and I can't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid on it!!
Hu
Many things I like to do and do well. I like to sing too. However I have been tone deaf all of my life and I can't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid on it!!
Hu
Frank nailed it...all across this land, high schools have guys who can play quarterback well. But, they can practice until they are blue....and they won't have that special something it takes to become a Joe Montana...
Every sport has a few guys who are at the top of the game, while others work their tails off and never make it.
Our constitution guarantees equal opportunity...it doesn't guarantee equal ability.
Every sport has a few guys who are at the top of the game, while others work their tails off and never make it.
Our constitution guarantees equal opportunity...it doesn't guarantee equal ability.
tom351
Registered
excellent point....
if all it takes is practice, how well does the worlds most practiced woman stack up to most big city's men shortstops?
We have not heard from Russ or Gatz in awhile, they must be practicing?
I did not read the whole thread, but did read a bunch of the posts, and this is a recurring theme...
Forget about World class levels levels like the top pros. Consider even an A level player. How many of us are on this site that post on a regular basis. We are all pool nuts. I'd bet that a very large percentage of us did play 3 to 5 years when we were in our teens and early 20's for 5 hours a day. Gambling our brains out. Trying to make money. Trying to beat our rivals and embarrass them. Trying to improve so we can jump a speed and take off everyone in the room with the same handicap that was used before our speed jump. So many of our waking thoughts are about pool. It comes before school, social life, family, you name it.
And of all the posters here, that have done this, how many are even an A level player? I've done it. And I came from a pool room and area that had tons of A and open level players. (Philly area). I'm a B on my good days, and C+ on other days. And I know MANY players that did the exact same things, lived and breathed pool for 10 years, and are at best middle B players.
On the ohter hand, I know a couple guys, who it seemed when they first picked up a cue, you KNEW they were going to be great.
One guy told me (an open level player), that when he was coming up, he was my speed (C at the time) for 1 week. I resented him for saying that. But it was the truth. I know it now. He got to an open level player in about 2 years time.
Of course we mere mortals want to believe we are all created equal, and given the same environment, and discipline, we would all be pros. Thats just wishful thinking.
You either have it or you dont.... In ANY sport.
My opinion of course...
Forget about World class levels levels like the top pros. Consider even an A level player. How many of us are on this site that post on a regular basis. We are all pool nuts. I'd bet that a very large percentage of us did play 3 to 5 years when we were in our teens and early 20's for 5 hours a day. Gambling our brains out. Trying to make money. Trying to beat our rivals and embarrass them. Trying to improve so we can jump a speed and take off everyone in the room with the same handicap that was used before our speed jump. So many of our waking thoughts are about pool. It comes before school, social life, family, you name it.
And of all the posters here, that have done this, how many are even an A level player? I've done it. And I came from a pool room and area that had tons of A and open level players. (Philly area). I'm a B on my good days, and C+ on other days. And I know MANY players that did the exact same things, lived and breathed pool for 10 years, and are at best middle B players.
On the ohter hand, I know a couple guys, who it seemed when they first picked up a cue, you KNEW they were going to be great.
One guy told me (an open level player), that when he was coming up, he was my speed (C at the time) for 1 week. I resented him for saying that. But it was the truth. I know it now. He got to an open level player in about 2 years time.
Of course we mere mortals want to believe we are all created equal, and given the same environment, and discipline, we would all be pros. Thats just wishful thinking.
You either have it or you dont.... In ANY sport.
My opinion of course...
I think the best players (champions) pop out of their mother's coochie with a mechanism / ability that none of us will have no matter how much we practice.
Given, with 10,000 hours some of us can become good impostors; however, the very best "always" had it from the very beginning. Guys like Hopkins, Varner, Sigel--- bullshit if any other them "became" champions because of 20,000 hours of practice. Shit, Allen told me the VERY FIRST TIME HE EVER PICKED UP A CUE he ran 12 balls. He ran over 100 at a really young age (I don't think he drove yet at the time).
I mean, come on.... this is a billiard forum of some of the smartest pool players around. Do ANY of you actually believe CHAMPIONS are made through practice? They see shit I don't see - and I've played almost every day for a long time.
If a regular nobody poster here wants to post-up some cash--- we'll put a G in escrow and see if you can win a US OPEN or WORLD 9/10-ball within 10 years of practice. I'd almost not wanna bet anyone because it'd be like stepping on a kitten. The easiest $$$ ever.
Given, with 10,000 hours some of us can become good impostors; however, the very best "always" had it from the very beginning. Guys like Hopkins, Varner, Sigel--- bullshit if any other them "became" champions because of 20,000 hours of practice. Shit, Allen told me the VERY FIRST TIME HE EVER PICKED UP A CUE he ran 12 balls. He ran over 100 at a really young age (I don't think he drove yet at the time).
I mean, come on.... this is a billiard forum of some of the smartest pool players around. Do ANY of you actually believe CHAMPIONS are made through practice? They see shit I don't see - and I've played almost every day for a long time.
If a regular nobody poster here wants to post-up some cash--- we'll put a G in escrow and see if you can win a US OPEN or WORLD 9/10-ball within 10 years of practice. I'd almost not wanna bet anyone because it'd be like stepping on a kitten. The easiest $$$ ever.
no need for twenty rebuttals but . . .
John,
No need for twenty rebuttals but I can point out that according to your own words you would have preferred to be a baseball player or golfer. To be blunt you couldn't reach the higher levels of either sport. Depending on how someone defines the top level of pool you have reached it or are very close.
Why didn't the gift that makes you a champion playing pool make you a champion baseball player or golfer? Ever wonder if you had stayed with golf single mindedly you might have reached your goals? A co-worker's father was a well paid executive that dreamed of being a golfer. He was the avid amateur you talk about. He couldn't give up the pay, the benefits, stock options, all the things that let his family lead the good life. After retirement he joined the senior tour and made far more money than he had ever made as an upper level executive and won several large events.
There are many paths to being a champion. You can speak of one because it is the path that led you there. It is a mistake to think that it is the only path however.
Hu
John,
No need for twenty rebuttals but I can point out that according to your own words you would have preferred to be a baseball player or golfer. To be blunt you couldn't reach the higher levels of either sport. Depending on how someone defines the top level of pool you have reached it or are very close.
Why didn't the gift that makes you a champion playing pool make you a champion baseball player or golfer? Ever wonder if you had stayed with golf single mindedly you might have reached your goals? A co-worker's father was a well paid executive that dreamed of being a golfer. He was the avid amateur you talk about. He couldn't give up the pay, the benefits, stock options, all the things that let his family lead the good life. After retirement he joined the senior tour and made far more money than he had ever made as an upper level executive and won several large events.
There are many paths to being a champion. You can speak of one because it is the path that led you there. It is a mistake to think that it is the only path however.
Hu
tom351
Registered
i actually got a guy to sign a contract in the poolroom last year...
he said he would be beating me in a year, and we played 1 year from the day of the signing....he's the only one ive ever got to go for it....:grin:
That's funny! You got him to sign a contract?! lol
Since 1993..I was not able to start until I 18, and already working 12 hours a day in the Army.
Now? Because of money and time? About 4 hours a week if I am lucky. I am separated from family, and money is really tight. They have a $7 special for 5 hours 2PM to 7Pm, and I occasionally get a week where I practice 10 hours.
I did some quick calculations, and realistically, only about 2000-3000 hours. Many of those were spread out over a period of about 5 years, so it was not as concentrated as i would have liked. The first 2 years of that were against poor players, and in a lot of bars, and on poor quality tables in the barracks.
I got ONE month of practice time concentrated all together. In that month, I practiced a full 8 hours daily, + tournament time. I practiced on Brunswick Gold Crowns, and with pool balls on a 6x12 snooker table. Some of those days, I stayed in my home hall and practiced 14 hours instead of going to a tournament.
After that month, my game jumped a few balls, and I began beating almost everyone except for BCA Grandmaster level players. I had an 87 snooker break on a guy up in Canada during a tournament.
Honestly, my patterns sucked, and I did not hit balls with the right speed at that point. I never had a mentor, and only learned as much as I could by watching, and at that point, i was not smart enough to know what i was looking at.
That's a tricky one. By my own estimation..Not very well. I can beat B level players right now using little more than my knowledge, even when my stroke is kinda funky.
Against these B players, tho...if I am not hitting em that well, I am liable to get beat in races to 9. If I am, I am liable to beat them 9-1, 9-2.
This is not an exaggeration. And it is depressing as hell. I have gambled a bit lately, and come out ahead against some good players. Gave one of those B players the last two, and that was one of the 9-1 sets.
It makes it EXTREMELY hard to match up. Because some good players know if I catch a stroke, I am likely to club them to death, but that is not my consistent game. I can't get weight, because they know what I am capable of..But I can't play even because I know personally where my physical game is at, for lack of practice.
I am one of those players that needs a good amount of practice. I cannot afford that right now because I am supporting two households.
I basically spent the last 2 years in Iraq watching Accu-Stats videos, and I am smart enough to analyze how the pros are hitting shots. My concept of how to play the game (higher probability angles when forced to move the CB long distances, two way shots, kick safeties, etc) is at a much higher level than when I got my month of practice time.
I am now that typical guy in the pool hall with a crapload more knowledge than even the best player in the room, but out of stroke enough that I am the 7 below the best player. The player who ran the 5 pack won't give me more than the 7. We were talking about it last night when I was showing them the "slow stroke" shots, that, even out of stroke, if I would have laid down when I came to town, I would have been able to get the 7&8 ball, and probably would have broke him.
So...It's hard to judge my speed. Do you play BCA? I lead the league in break and runs, and rack and runs, but because of my lack of consistency, I have an overall winning percentage a few points below the top few people in the league. One of those people..I gambled some eight ball with, $20 a rack. He won the first two games..I won the next 6. his backer quit.
Not that I am a "league player" type guy.. (I do it just to play decent players cheaply..) But..just putting it out there.
Right now..I feel like I can't beat anybody. Give me the right type of practice, (I prefer practicing with pool balls on a snooker table to smooth my stroke..) and I am no match for a pro, but could beat most everyone but the top 12 in regional events.
So...I feel fairly confident, that..At least for myself, if I would have had two years commitment free time to practice, that becoming atop regional player would have been a legitimate goal. I never met any regular player as focused as me, who loved to practice as much as me.
I guess I am just a guy who needs more practice time than the average worldbeater..
Russ
tom351
Registered
just one i wrote up in the poolroom...something along the lines of
i, ___________ will play ___________ even 9 ball, 7 ahead for $_______ on sept. 17, 2009...must be
played within 2 days of said date or all monies will be forfeited to the willing party....
witness___________
witness___________