Slip Stroke

[ShootingArts]

That I'd really like to see too

I have a japanese shoto from the 11th century that has scrimshank ropework as the tsukamaki...

The thought is that it was owned by a sailor at some time in it's almost thousand years of life...

If I get a chance I'll take some pictures.

Jaden

Very interesting that you would have a shoto that combined the things we were talking about. Just one more proof that almost nothing is really new. No rush at all but I'd really like to see a picture of that too sometime.

Hu

 

[Celtic]

I HATE VISTA I HATE VISTA I HATE VISTA I HATE VISTA I HATE VISTA

I switched to Windows 7 and I must say it is freaking heaven compared to Vista, it is the upgrade to XP that Vista SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

The only thing that sucks is that I actually had to PAY for Windows 7, which seems a little unfair as I sort of HAD TO get it in order to get Vista off my machine.

And I actually paid for that Vista crap because Microsoft being the sneaks they were released a "patch" for XP that crashed my system the instant it said "great we installed this "update" so now we just have to reboot your computer" to the point that it would not even boot and/or reinstall from the XP disk. It DID install from the new Vista disk I bought, imagine that coincidence...

 

[sfleinen]

LONG POST WARNING (Part 1): How to execute a slip stroke; nuances & bennies

Just 3 questions.

3kushn:

Apologies for the belated reply to your post; didn't get back to this thread until now. As for your questions, sure! I hope you don't mind I answer these 3 questions "in line" in the post itself?

What is the benefit of a slip stroke?

A couple of benefits, some described in this thread already, some I've learned for myself after using it for almost 10 years. If I had to summarize the bennies, here they are:

1. If one's conventional stroke has a "hook" or "crook" in it at a certain point (e.g. due to slight misalignments in the arm joints -- perhaps because of past injuries, congenital growth, or calcium deposits; or perhaps because of back problems that one is subconsciously adjusting to), this "hook" or "crook" induces a little bit of sideways throw in the cue during delivery, throwing the cue off the shot delivery line. It may not even be noticeable to the player him/herself, but folks watching down the line of your cue (either in front of, or behind you), as well as video camera playback/analysis, can certainly reveal it.

This "hook" or "crook" usually happens not during the practice strokes (because the player him/herself would notice it), but rather at the later stages of cue delivery, as the cue is about to contact the cue ball, when the player's eyes have shifted focus to the object ball (that's why he/she never sees the "hook" or "crook" -- it happens *after* he/she takes his/her focus away from the cue and cue ball). The player notices his/her practice strokes are straight, and is pretty sure his/her aiming point was the correct point to pocket the ball, but can't understand why his/her cue delivery went awry. A good example are straight-in long pots; there's no ambiguity about the aiming point there -- dead-center on both the cue ball and object ball -- but yet he/she bobbled the object ball, or worse yet, sent it into the rail. (This is, by the way, assuming one is cueing the cue ball correctly; i.e. seeing dead center on the cue ball, and contacting dead center. Not seeing or cueing the center of the cue ball, when one is intending to, is a problem all by itself, and there are products like Joe Tucker's Third Eye Stroke Trainer which diagnose and correct this problem quite nicely.)

While ultimately addressing why that "hook" or "crook" is there in the conventional stroke is one way of dealing with the problem, another is adopting the slip stroke. The slip stroke keeps the stroke compact, and within the realm of "known straightness" in the range of the practice strokes themselves. What I mean here, is during the conventional stroke (i.e. as taught by many instructors, including the SPF discipline), one cues-up at the cue ball, with the cue tip as close as possible to the cue ball, with the forearm of the stroking arm as perpendicular to the cue as possible and the cue as level as possible. One takes practice strokes, with the cue always stopping just shy of the cue ball, and the forearm never going past the 90 degree angle to the cue. (In effect, during the conventional stroke, one's stroking arm never goes into the territory during contact with the cue ball, nor beyond -- this only happens during actual cue delivery during the shot itself.) So in effect, during a conventional stroke, after one has got down on the shot, taking practice strokes, that area during contact with the cue ball and beyond is "uncharted and unexplored territory" until *after* the cue is delivered. To put it in SPF terms, one doesn't experience the FINISH position until FINISH itself is executed. With many folks, somewhere in this FINISH position is where the "hook" or "crook" happens -- and usually a millisecond before, or right at impact with the cue ball, sending the shot awry.

The slip stroke addresses this anomaly quite nicely, by adjusting the cue(!) to fit within the "known straight practice stroke range." That is, slip strokers cue up at the cue ball at or very near the FINISH position, taking their practice strokes and while doing so, making the adjustments to straighten out any hooks/crooks in the stroke (i.e. adjusting the back arm angle, making slight adjustments in the grip hand so e.g. the heel of the hand isn't "bumping into" the cue and bumping it off the shot line, etc.).

Once a slip-stroker is satisfied that his/her practice strokes are straight and true throughout the stroke range, during the back stroke of cue delivery, his/her bridge hand will slightly "pinch" the cue, applying slight friction to hold it in place for a split second, the back hand gently releases (while still in the forward-placed FINISH range, giving the grip hand the opportunity to swing downwards and away from the level cue to minimize frictional contact with the cue), sliding backwards on the grip a bit (couple centimeters or inches), then regrips at the desired spot on the grip, finishes the motion with pulling the cue back, and then the forward motion of cue delivery through the verified/known-straight "practice stroke range of motion." In a slip stroke, the contact of the cue to the cue ball happens during the known practice stroke range. There is no "uncharted / unexplored territory" through the practice stroke range of motion, nor the actual cue delivery itself. The only "unknown" (if you want to call it that) is what happens during the slip-and-regrip, but once one practices the slip stroke and gets it to the point where it's second nature, *this* unknown is not really an unknown at all -- to him/her, this limbo state the cue is in while the slip-and-regrip is taking place is easier to accept than what happens during the cue delivery through the "uncharted / unexplored territory" that happens during a conventional stroke. And like I mentioned, for a lot of folks, that uncharted / unexplored territory is where some of these "hooks" and "crooks" happen.

2. By repositioning the cue forward in the "known-straight practice stroke range," one can hit the cue ball a lot harder than what's "normal" for him/her, with confidence. "Harder" may not be harder through muscle effort, but rather because the cue is following through the cue ball greater and for a longer distance, with no additional muscle effort. As Hu (ShootingArts) mentioned, he found that he was really smacking the ball with the same amount of effort he was using for his conventional stroke -- sometimes too much with the slip stroke. You can really drill that cue ball with a firm slip stroke! (That sounds like misnomer, but it really isn't. Yes, a slip stroke requires a light grip to facilitate the "slip-and-regrip," but it *is* letting the cue do the work.)

3. Because one is repositioning the cue forward through the known-straight practice stroke range, and contact with the cue ball comes as a "surprise" during cue delivery, the stroke is almost effortless. When the slip stroke is mastered, one can play for hours just swinging his/her arm, rarely employing any strong influence from the biceps, triceps, or shoulder muscles, but rather letting gravity and the weight of the cue do the work for you.

There are probably others, and if other folks can chime in, I'm sure a nice shopping list can be built of the slip stroke's virtues.

[...continued in Part 2...]

 

[sfleinen]

LONG POST WARNING (Part 2): How to execute a slip stroke; nuances & bennies

[...continued from Part 1...]

What does moving the grip on the back swing do?

As mentioned above, it adjusts the cue to "fit within the known-straight practice stroke range of motion," without any uncharted / unexplored territory. That is, you practice stroke to verify your stroke is straight, then you adjust the cue forward (through the slip-and-regrip on the final backstroke) so that contact with the cue ball "happens" through one of those normal practice strokes. There's no stopping at the cue ball during the practice strokes; then when you're ready to fire, you enter uncharted / unexplored territory when the cue tip contacts the cue ball and beyond, as happens with a conventional stroke. (I hope this makes sense? I'm trying my best to describe it.)

How in the heck do you get your hand to move back?

I described that above and in previous posts, and others have as well, but I'll summarize again:

* During the back stroke of cue delivery, while your grip hand is still forward of the 90 degree angle to the cue (forward of perihelion, still in the FINISH range), pinch the shaft of the cue with your bridge hand slightly.

* While pinching the shaft with your bridge hand, release your grip slightly and slide your hand back several centimeters / a couple of inches. You need to do this while your hand is still forward of the perpendicular to the cue (i.e. in the FINISH range), so that as you're sliding your grip hand, it is "falling away" from the cue and minimizing friction with the grip area. In effect, you're trying to slide your hand back while the cue is "suspended in mid-air." (It really isn't -- gravity is always acting on the cue -- but you're doing this quick enough during the cue's initial "free fall" to catch it later during the regrip. That's why it's imperative you do this while your grip hand is forward of perihelion in the natural arc of the stroke -- still in the FINISH range -- because the natural downward arc of your grip hand traveling backwards sends it towards the floor and away from the cue, minimizing friction with the grip area, allowing the "slide" or "slip" to take place. The cue, in effect, starts its free-falling while your grip hand travels backwards and downwards -- albeit the cue only "falls" several millimeters -- to catch up with your grip hand later, during the regrip.)

* Once you've "caught" the cue during your regrip, you release the "pinch" in your bridge hand, and continue stroking the cue backwards, still in the normal range of your practice strokes. The "pinch," by the way, is a slight exaggeration. You don't want to have to "think" about pinching the cue, nor introduce any movement in your bridge hand; rather, you want any traction in the loop of your closed bridge to temporarily hold the cue during the slip-and-regrip. You may find that you don't have to do anything at all in the bridge hand -- if you've a cue with a forward balance (i.e. the balance point of the cue is located significantly forward, say, in the forearm area of the cue), you probably don't have to do any pinching at all -- the forward balance of the cue probably places enough friction in your bridge to hold the cue.

* Then, execute your forward stroke, just like your practice strokes. You can insert a pause, if you like, at the very limit of your back stroke, just before beginning your forward stroke, a la Buddy Hall, Cliff Joyner, or Allison Fisher. (Your choice, really.) Since you've repositioned your grip hand backwards on the cue, when you go forward through the full range of motion of your normal practice stroke, you end up contacting the cue ball in the process -- SURPRISE!

In effect, you've "adjusted the cue" so that the contact with the cue ball now happens within the range of motion of your practice strokes, without any uncharted / unknown territory like that which occurs in a conventional stroke when one "stops" at the cue ball during the practice strokes.

Years ago I saw Allan Gilbert play. He had a huge slip, 3, 4, or 5 inches. The cue did leave his hand in a big way or so it seemed. I walked in to where he was playing, put my cue together which had a rubber grip. He looks at it with a frown and said "Take that thing off and learn the slip stroke. All the greats used it."

Allan was correct -- you cannot (or not at least with some great difficulty) execute a slip stroke with a rubber grip. Not without doing some herculean opening of the grip hand (completely releasing the cue) and snapping it closed later during the regrip, which would throw some jarring motion and significant yaw in the process of cue delivery. A rubber grip is not designed for that anyway -- as a 3C player you already know that.

A slip stroke is best used with an Irish Linen grip, since Irish Linen is inherently slippery, never tacky, and almost never sticks to the skin of the hand (unless there's some kind of patina on the Irish Linen that gives it some sort of traction). This facilitates the slide or slip backwards, with minimal interference from traction. A slip stroke *can* be accomplished with a leather grip, but the slip-and-regrip process would have to be exaggerated a bit (i.e. releasing the grip a little more than normal) to compensate for leather's increased "grippy" feel over Irish Linen. I'd found that it's difficult to execute a slip stroke with an unwrapped cue, unless one uses some powder or corn starch on his/her grip hand (but then again, that might be due to my own situation with hands that perspire a bit).

As for learning the slip stroke "because all the greats used it," there's two sides to that story. Yes, many of the greats used it back in the day, but don't forget, playing conditions were different back then -- nap cloth back then instead of worsted cloth like today's Simonis and variants, tighter pockets today, better quality balls today, better quaility rubber cushions today, better lighting over the tables today, increased knowledge about human anatomy as it applies to the stroke (e.g. how the stroke works -- the SPF disclipine of instruction being a good example) today, etc.

I do need to ask you -- as a "reader exercise" -- to name any of today's champions that use a slip stroke. Just one. Any of today's top ten or top twenty or so players that use a known slip stroke. When I say "champion," I'm talking about players that snap-off big tournaments and are in the BCA points list. I'm not talking about past-greats who are still playing and may occassionally win or place in some regional tournament. I'm talking big names. Hint: you won't find any. There's a reason for this -- knowledge about the physics of pool and the human anatomy as it applies to it (e.g. the stroke and mechanics) are much greater these days, and the need for a slip stroke is minimized.

I'm not saying the "Use by:" date of the slip stroke has been exceeded (if I may borrow a great expression from Jerry Forsyth). I'm saying that it's not "required to be one of the greats" like some of the old-timers say.

Personally, one of the best learning stages I went through in my play was learning the slip stroke. I learned a TON about stroking the cue ball, and how to keep the cue straight throughout the cue delivery. I then integrated that knowledge into my conventional stroke, and "re-built" my mechanics and foundation upon what I feel are superior cue delivery fundamentals -- that of the snooker style, and I gently placed the slip stroke to the wayside in my mind. Everyone says that they used to play better at such-and-such time of his/her life. Well, with me, I think I'm playing just as good -- if not better -- than when I was in the Navy and stationed in Norfolk, VA in the mid-1980s and practically lived in a pool hall (Q-Masters, when it was located on Sewell's Point Road in Norfolk) during my off-duty hours. I just wish I had more time to play these days! (The "woes" of today's working man! )

I have a kind of stroke slip and I guess I acquired it from reading Wimpy's quote "Light grip is good, lighter is better." Took it to heart played around with it to the point I was throwing the cue, then backed off just a tad and now the cue naturally wants move forward. Sometimes it moves, sometimes not but it wants to. It opened up a whole new realm of possibilities.

3kushn, what you describe here is NOT a slip stroke, but rather a stroke slip. There is a difference -- a slip stroke is "a slip [backwards], followed by a stroke." A stroke slip is "a stroke, followed by a slip [forwards] of the cue." Big difference. What you describe is what Dave Segal (SpiderWebComm) likes to call "throwing the cue" -- in effect, throwing (or letting slide forward) the cue so it travels like a spear through the cue ball. A slip stroke is not that at all. Once one executes the "slip-and-regrip" during the backstroke, positive grip of the cue is maintained (usually) at all times. And in fact, if you watch Wayne Norcross's videos (posted earlier in this thread), you can see Wayne sometimes uses BOTH a slip stroke and a stroke slip -- he "slips-and-regrips" during the backstroke, and then during the forward stroke lets the cue slide through his grip. But keep in mind both are separate and distinct actions.

I apologize for the "War and Peace" response (two posts to do it, no less!), but I hope the info about the slip stroke -- as well as detailed instructions on how to execute it -- are helpful!

Warmest regard,
-Sean

 

[nancewayne]

Slip-Stroke

Regarding sfleinen's detailed explanation...GREAT !!!

I've played pool for over 55 years (started age 10...a nickel a half hour on a 4 1/2 x9 National table at the YMCA). I (somehow) developed a Slip-stroke and have used it throughout my playing history. I mostly played 14.1 Continuous pool. That game utilizes the front 4 pockets mostly, therefore many short soft shots for precision play.
Those shots are primarily "speed" shots and require a very soft grip to "feel" the speed of the cue's arc when striking the cue ball. The Slip-grip works perfectly for those type shots.

My problem is: when I hit the cue ball harder, therefore a longer stroke and follow through, my regripping requires more cue movement (slide) in the grip hand and a consequently a ultimately a harder grip to execute the shot. I miss too many long table (even straight in) hit hard shots.
Any recommendations (other than having two different grips for each type shot)?

 

[sfleinen]

Use a Ronnie O'Sullivan trick to ensure the same grip during hard or soft shots

Regarding sfleinen's detailed explanation...GREAT !!!

Thank you, Wayne! (This is Sean, by the way -- "sfleinen" is a throwback to a bygone time during the development of the Internet [yes, I was there and have the authoring credentials to prove it ), when usernames had to conform to eight-characters maximum. My non-AZB existence is known as Sean F. Leinen. )

I took some time offline at the table last night, and I gently airlifted the slip stroke from the archives of my mind, and freshened it up for the purposes of this write-up. Played for about an hour, and my slip stroke was "just like old times." Feels great, and I was able to document it for the benefit of all. Keep in mind that some of the analogies I use in the write-up, I use with loose license (e.g. when I describe the slip-and-regrip process), only for illustration purposes. As you yourself know, a properly executed slip stroke shows no noticeable opening/closing of the grip hand, nor any "free fall" of the cue. It's very smooth, and is done through feel.

I've played pool for over 55 years (started age 10...a nickel a half hour on a 4 1/2 x9 National table at the YMCA). I (somehow) developed a Slip-stroke and have used it throughout my playing history. I mostly played 14.1 Continuous pool. That game utilizes the front 4 pockets mostly, therefore many short soft shots for precision play.
Those shots are primarily "speed" shots and require a very soft grip to "feel" the speed of the cue's arc when striking the cue ball. The Slip-grip works perfectly for those type shots.

My problem is: when I hit the cue ball harder, therefore a longer stroke and follow through, my regripping requires more cue movement (slide) in the grip hand and a consequently a ultimately a harder grip to execute the shot. I miss too many long table (even straight in) hit hard shots.
Any recommendations (other than having two different grips for each type shot)?

Wayne, you describe straight pool well -- increased feel is required for those "close in" shots, to ensure post-shot accurate cue ball placement. As you can see from my avatar's moniker, I LOVE straight pool and one pocket (another game where "feel" is absolutely essential for accurate cue ball placement -- probably more so than straight pool, since an errant cue ball is likely to cost you the game with a good player opponent).

As for the "two types of grip" you mention, I rediscovered a trick I used to use with a slip stroke to ensure the same grip on all shots.

What I would do, while I'm still standing and looking over the table layout, pondering the next shot, is I'd hold the cue at the exact same "initial gripping area" as when I'm down on the shot. You see a lot of players who, while pondering the next shot, look like they're stroking the cue in mid-air in front of their bodies (with the cue angled across his/her body like a rifle for "present arms" position), angled towards the ceiling? I do the same, except I add something to my grip hand that's not easily seen -- I'm scrunching the cue (with a death grip) to put a circular impression of the cue in my grip hand. The idea is to press down and flatten the fleshy part of the hand that contacts the cue to "create an imprint," so that the bulkines of flesh of the hand itself is minimized. Then, when I get down on the shot, I release the pressure and use a normal, loose grip. I've found that no matter the shot, hard or soft, with this "round impression" pressed into the flesh of my hand, my cue delivery is more accurate, since I'm no longer dealing with the ambiguities of flesh itself in the grip of the cue, nor do certain "pads" of flesh protruding out in my grip hand bump the cue during delivery and throw it offline.

This works with or without a slip stroke. If you watch Ronnie O'Sullivan closely (my favorite professional snooker player, btw), when he's pondering a shot, you'll see him hold the cue in front of his body, and he's doing something with his right hand grip "subconsciously." He doesn't stroke the cue in front of his body like pool players do, but he holds it out there, and you see some "funny business" going on in his right hand (his stroking hand; and btw, being the best ambidextrous cueist in the world [IMHO], he does the opposite when shooting left-handed). If you look close, he's adjusting his fingers and scrunching down, putting the cue's impression upon his grip hand's flesh. This is where I got this trick from.

Give that a try!

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[nancewayne]

Sean,
I'll figure out someway to get you some "greenies"!!!
That idea is worth trying....I'll go to the pool hall today and try it. THANKS a bunch!!!

Thank you, Wayne! (This is Sean, by the way -- "sfleinen" is a throwback to a bygone time during the development of the Internet [yes, I was there and have the authoring credentials to prove it ), when usernames had to conform to eight-characters maximum. My non-AZB existence is known as Sean F. Leinen. )

I took some time offline at the table last night, and I gently airlifted the slip stroke from the archives of my mind, and freshened it up for the purposes of this write-up. Played for about an hour, and my slip stroke was "just like old times." Feels great, and I was able to document it for the benefit of all. Keep in mind that some of the analogies I use in the write-up, I use with loose license (e.g. when I describe the slip-and-regrip process), only for illustration purposes. As you yourself know, a properly executed slip stroke shows no noticeable opening/closing of the grip hand, nor any "free fall" of the cue. It's very smooth, and is done through feel.



Wayne, you describe straight pool well -- increased feel is required for those "close in" shots, to ensure post-shot accurate cue ball placement. As you can see from my avatar's moniker, I LOVE straight pool and one pocket (another game where "feel" is absolutely essential for accurate cue ball placement -- probably more so than straight pool, since an errant cue ball is likely to cost you the game with a good player opponent).

As for the "two types of grip" you mention, I rediscovered a trick I used to use with a slip stroke to ensure the same grip on all shots.

What I would do, while I'm still standing and looking over the table layout, pondering the next shot, is I'd hold the cue at the exact same "initial gripping area" as when I'm down on the shot. You see a lot of players who, while pondering the next shot, look like they're stroking the cue in mid-air in front of their bodies (with the cue angled across his/her body like a rifle for "present arms" position), angled towards the ceiling? I do the same, except I add something to my grip hand that's not easily seen -- I'm scrunching the cue (with a death grip) to put a circular impression of the cue in my grip hand. The idea is to press down and flatten the fleshy part of the hand that contacts the cue to "create an imprint," so that the bulkines of flesh of the hand itself is minimized. Then, when I get down on the shot, I release the pressure and use a normal, loose grip. I've found that no matter the shot, hard or soft, with this "round impression" pressed into the flesh of my hand, my cue delivery is more accurate, since I'm no longer dealing with the ambiguities of flesh itself in the grip of the cue, nor do certain "pads" of flesh protruding out in my grip hand bump the cue during delivery and throw it offline.

This works with or without a slip stroke. If you watch Ronnie O'Sullivan closely (my favorite professional snooker player, btw), when he's pondering a shot, you'll see him hold the cue in front of his body, and he's doing something with his right hand grip "subconsciously." He doesn't stroke the cue in front of his body like pool players do, but he holds it out there, and you see some "funny business" going on in his right hand (his stroking hand; and btw, being the best ambidextrous cueist in the world [IMHO], he does the opposite when shooting left-handed). If you look close, he's adjusting his fingers and scrunching down, putting the cue's impression upon his grip hand's flesh. This is where I got this trick from.

Give that a try!

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[Jaden]

here's some photos of the shoto...

Very interesting that you would have a shoto that combined the things we were talking about. Just one more proof that almost nothing is really new. No rush at all but I'd really like to see a picture of that too sometime.

Hu

Here hu, here's some photos of the scrimshank on the shoto.

Jaden

Now, each one of the groups of wrap are separate from one another and can slide off individually. I had taken the tsuka off to find the makers mark on the blade itself.

we couldn't find the maker in any of the books that we had available, but it's possible that he was an apprentice who died before becoming widely known, or something like that.

 

[Jaden]

bump...

Here's a bump so Hu can see the scrawshank on the shoto...


Jaden

 

[greyghost]

Terminology too similar.....

Although I know exactly what the STROKE SLIP is, Its the close similarity in the phrasing that gets everyone mixed up.

I don't know where or when I first heard it, but I always used the term

Dart Stroke (just like throwing a dart), instead of Stroke Slip. When explaining things to others they better understood what a Dart Stroke was as Opposed to a Stroke Slip. A newbie will get that in a Dart Stroke that you would have a release on forward delivery. The first thing a newbie would think about when they hear Stroke Slip is "well where the hell does it slip".


What do all of you think?
Grey Ghost

 

[sfleinen]

Although I know exactly what the STROKE SLIP is, Its the close similarity in the phrasing that gets everyone mixed up.

I don't know where or when I first heard it, but I always used the term

Dart Stroke (just like throwing a dart), instead of Stroke Slip. When explaining things to others they better understood what a Dart Stroke was as Opposed to a Stroke Slip. A newbie will get that in a Dart Stroke that you would have a release on forward delivery. The first thing a newbie would think about when they hear Stroke Slip is "well where the hell does it slip".


What do all of you think?
Grey Ghost

I like this idea, GG! The only problem is the mental picture of the pinched fingers holding a dart, that comes into people's mind when they hear "dart stroke." (Or perhaps the "dart stroke" as it applies to jumping balls with a jump cue?) Perhaps a "spear stroke" or "underhanded spear stroke" would be more apropos? (The latter seems to be making it too complicated, though.)

Good idea nonetheless -- "slip stroke" is kinda vague; just like you said "when does the 'slip' take place?"

-Sean

 

[ShootingArts]

very interesting

Here's a bump so Hu can see the scrawshank on the shoto...


Jaden

Jaden,

My apologies, I did see it earlier and wanted to take time to write a full post so I moved on for awhile. Some distractions on the home front and then a thunderstorm shut me down for a few hours. My UPS batteries are bad and I don't like relying on just a surge protector when the lightning is bad. The Mosconi Cup caught me awhile too and I finally made it back here.

That is a very interesting shoto. The ropework is the first thing of interest to me of course but the unknown maker's mark is also curious. So many people died young that long ago that there are probably many who were very capable but never became known. I don't know anything about how it was done in Japan but in most countries the apprentice's work would bear the mark of his master, not his own.

I have been practicing the slip stroke itself and I tried to wax the butt of my favorite playing cue(that isn't wrapped) slick enough to use a slip stroke. Looks like that isn't going to happen. My other cue is heavier and has a crappy linen wrap. Both the weight and the lousy wrap seem to make the slip stroke easier.

Thanks very much for the earlier pictures and these. I am always eager to learn and to look at interesting objects. The shoto is definitely interesting. Have to wonder about the tale it would tell if it could talk.

Hu

 

[Jaden]

Possibly out on his own for a while and then died...

Jaden,

My apologies, I did see it earlier and wanted to take time to write a full post so I moved on for awhile. Some distractions on the home front and then a thunderstorm shut me down for a few hours. My UPS batteries are bad and I don't like relying on just a surge protector when the lightning is bad. The Mosconi Cup caught me awhile too and I finally made it back here.

That is a very interesting shoto. The ropework is the first thing of interest to me of course but the unknown maker's mark is also curious. So many people died young that long ago that there are probably many who were very capable but never became known. I don't know anything about how it was done in Japan but in most countries the apprentice's work would bear the mark of his master, not his own.

I have been practicing the slip stroke itself and I tried to wax the butt of my favorite playing cue(that isn't wrapped) slick enough to use a slip stroke. Looks like that isn't going to happen. My other cue is heavier and has a crappy linen wrap. Both the weight and the lousy wrap seem to make the slip stroke easier.

Thanks very much for the earlier pictures and these. I am always eager to learn and to look at interesting objects. The shoto is definitely interesting. Have to wonder about the tale it would tell if it could talk.

Hu

It's really impossible to know. I also need to do some more research on it as the lsat time I had looked into it, the internet had just started and the guy I took i to may have just wanted to get a hold of it...

The only thing I know about it for sure is that my grandpa (a WWII pilot) took it off of a dead soldier on one of the pacific islands..

Of course and then what I've assessed about it myself. The type of hamon, the type of tsuka, the obviously naval braid ropeworl on the tsuka, the tsuba..

It was probably originally owned by a middle class warrior as the tsuba is iron. It is possible that it was originally filligred with gold and that has worn off, but the tsuba (hand guard) also has an iron ring around it which would tend to indicate that it didn't have gold filligree cause it would usually have a gold ring as well.

It has also actually seen combat as there are sword clash nicks in the blade. I'm in the midst of repolishing it, which to do right takes a long time and a lot of effort. Once I'm finished with that I'll post some pictures of the blade, with the flower type hamon (fairly rare).

Jaden

 

[ShootingArts]

a major difference

Jaden,

Funny how there is a different feeling looking at a weapon that has been used as a weapon compared to even the finest made weapon that has never been used for anything other than practice or display. Sounds like this was the duty weapon of a warrior while a highly ornamental one might have been more a symbol of power and status even if it was very old.

Hu

It's really impossible to know. I also need to do some more research on it as the lsat time I had looked into it, the internet had just started and the guy I took i to may have just wanted to get a hold of it...

The only thing I know about it for sure is that my grandpa (a WWII pilot) took it off of a dead soldier on one of the pacific islands..

Of course and then what I've assessed about it myself. The type of hamon, the type of tsuka, the obviously naval braid ropeworl on the tsuka, the tsuba..

It was probably originally owned by a middle class warrior as the tsuba is iron. It is possible that it was originally filligred with gold and that has worn off, but the tsuba (hand guard) also has an iron ring around it which would tend to indicate that it didn't have gold filligree cause it would usually have a gold ring as well.

It has also actually seen combat as there are sword clash nicks in the blade. I'm in the midst of repolishing it, which to do right takes a long time and a lot of effort. Once I'm finished with that I'll post some pictures of the blade, with the flower type hamon (fairly rare).

Jaden

 

[3kushn]

Thanks Sean for all your time answering my questions.

I believe I'll learn this technique. Maybe if lucky I can also learn more about the deficiencies in my normal stroke.

 

[sfleinen]

Slip stroke one of the best tools to learn all subtleties about a cue "in flight"

Thanks Sean for all your time answering my questions.

I believe I'll learn this technique. Maybe if lucky I can also learn more about the deficiencies in my normal stroke.

3kushn:

Any time -- glad to offer what I know. And as for learning about stroke deficiencies, that's exactly what it did for me -- I learned what it was in my conventional stroke that was throwing or steering the cue offline, and thus how to deliver a cue straight. For that, I'm indebted to the slip stroke. But when I started playing on snooker tables, I unfortunately had to tip my hat and bid the slip stroke adieu, take the lessons learned and apply them to my conventional stroke. The slip stroke is simply not accurate enough on a 6' x 12' snooker table, and when you think about it, it CAN'T be. During that time of slip-and-regrip, one relinquishes control of the cue for a split second, and during the regrip -- no matter how smoothly it's accomplished -- a little "jarring" motion is transferred to the cue as it goes from its free fall to a resting position in the hand, inducing a bit of yaw. At least that's what was happening to me. On a pool table, the slip stroke is great -- quite sufficiently accurate to pocket balls, even over a 9-foot distance (although great care has to be taken with the regrip on a long stroke, as nancewayne observed in a post above). If one doesn't need to play snooker, the slip stroke is fantastic! (I'd probably still be using it today.)

Today, I use a conventional stroke, but mounted it upon a snooker stance and foundation. I also include a pronounced wrist flick as I go through the cue ball, which serves as that insurance that the cue is traveling straight-through the cue ball, with no time for any hooks/crooks or arm deviations to steer the cue off-path prior to contact with the cue ball. (In order to develop this wrist flick, I had to develop the Flexor pollicis longus muscle in my forearm [the muscle on the same side of the forearm as the thumb of the hand, or would be on the top of the forearm facing the ceiling if you were gripping a steering wheel at the 9:00 and 3:00 position]. The wrist flick is just like waving hello upside down, but while grasping a cue. While it's easy to wave hello with the fingers of the hand opened, try doing that with the fingers closed as when gripping something -- not easy for most people. Hence I had to develop that same muscle with a bit of forearm exercises with dumbbells and preacher curls with a very specialized arm curl bar.) I'll have to make a video of the wrist flick sometime and post it.

But in summary, the slip stroke is one of the greatest learning tools I've EVER taken the time to get to know. I would highly recommend learning it, for if it doesn't become a permanent part of one's style because of its virtues, it certainly will teach detailed specifics about one's stroke along the way, as well as subtle things about the feel of a cue "in flight."

Hope this is additionally helpful,
-Sean

 

[JoeyA]

rickey simpson from stone wall mississippi has a beautiful slip stroke. anyone ever heard of him?

Rickey has a GREAT game. I told the story of everyone at the Sport Palace in New Orleans being scared to death of him, his game and his gamble. Finally a stranger accepted his challenge to play anyone in the house for either two or three hundred dollar set of 9 ball (maybe 20 years ago) we had never seen Danny Medina before and neither had Rickey.

Danny's thunder break and great shooting made Rickey chill and head back to Mississippi but I still had to respect Rickey for barking loud and hard at ANYONE who wanted to jump up and play.

Shooting Arts was at the pool room I visited today and showed me the slip stroke that he knows and it was the opposite of what i remembered some people explaining to me. The slip stroke he showed me had me holding the cue slightly forward of where I normally hold it and then on the final back stroke, the rear hand slides backward. The stroke slip is when the cue on the final forward stroke, slides through the rear hand. Many years ago I was shown the stroke slip which I tried and abandoned fairly quickly.

Anyway, the slip stroke is something I am going to practice and hope to use it on certain shots. I think even with today's vast knowledge of pool, the slip stroke has some GREAT merit.

JoeyA

 

[nancewayne]

As I've stated B4, I have a pronounced "Slip Stroke"....great for short, in tight shots (like 14.1, 8-ball & 1 pocket), but not good for a long stroke ( cue ball hit hard) like in 9-ball or 10-ball.
I have found the best way to hit the cue ball long and straight is to tighten my grip hand slightly and actually lean the wrist backwards a little (the fingers trail the wrist). That grip moves the pressure from my index finger to the first finger. The resultant stroke though does force the elbow to "shovel" a little (drop slightly) on the follow through. You probably don't get as much engish on the cue ball (either draw or follow) as the lighter "slip stroke", but the accuracy on a long hard hit shot is much better.

If I remember correctly, the great hustler Al Bonife, aka "New York Blackie", used a slip stroke. He passed away in 2007.

 

[Jaden]

slip stroke isn't about the slip....

3kushn:

Any time -- glad to offer what I know. And as for learning about stroke deficiencies, that's exactly what it did for me -- I learned what it was in my conventional stroke that was throwing or steering the cue offline, and thus how to deliver a cue straight. For that, I'm indebted to the slip stroke. But when I started playing on snooker tables, I unfortunately had to tip my hat and bid the slip stroke adieu, take the lessons learned and apply them to my conventional stroke. The slip stroke is simply not accurate enough on a 6' x 12' snooker table, and when you think about it, it CAN'T be. During that time of slip-and-regrip, one relinquishes control of the cue for a split second, and during the regrip -- no matter how smoothly it's accomplished -- a little "jarring" motion is transferred to the cue as it goes from its free fall to a resting position in the hand, inducing a bit of yaw. At least that's what was happening to me. On a pool table, the slip stroke is great -- quite sufficiently accurate to pocket balls, even over a 9-foot distance (although great care has to be taken with the regrip on a long stroke, as nancewayne observed in a post above). If one doesn't need to play snooker, the slip stroke is fantastic! (I'd probably still be using it today.)

Today, I use a conventional stroke, but mounted it upon a snooker stance and foundation. I also include a pronounced wrist flick as I go through the cue ball, which serves as that insurance that the cue is traveling straight-through the cue ball, with no time for any hooks/crooks or arm deviations to steer the cue off-path prior to contact with the cue ball. (In order to develop this wrist flick, I had to develop the Flexor pollicis longus muscle in my forearm [the muscle on the same side of the forearm as the thumb of the hand, or would be on the top of the forearm facing the ceiling if you were gripping a steering wheel at the 9:00 and 3:00 position]. The wrist flick is just like waving hello upside down, but while grasping a cue. While it's easy to wave hello with the fingers of the hand opened, try doing that with the fingers closed as when gripping something -- not easy for most people. Hence I had to develop that same muscle with a bit of forearm exercises with dumbbells and preacher curls with a very specialized arm curl bar.) I'll have to make a video of the wrist flick sometime and post it.

But in summary, the slip stroke is one of the greatest learning tools I've EVER taken the time to get to know. I would highly recommend learning it, for if it doesn't become a permanent part of one's style because of its virtues, it certainly will teach detailed specifics about one's stroke along the way, as well as subtle things about the feel of a cue "in flight."

Hope this is additionally helpful,
-Sean

The slip stroke is about letting the cue do the work, as long as you're letting the cue do the work, you'll get all of the benefits of the slip stroke. It may sound difficult at first to do, especially if you've had success with the slip stroke, but the key is to keep the cue loose and at the point of contact let the cue feel almost like it's floating without ever really letting it slip.

Jaden

 

[book collector]

Slip stroke

Blackjack sent me video of a stroke about a year ago. Makes me crazy that I can't remember who the bygone player was that had it. Prettiest stroke I ever saw. It seemed like some slight of hand magic was going on. I don't remember if it was a traditional slip stroke or not.

The only reason I post this is so that Blackjack might see it and either post or send me the info again. That stroke was so beautiful I was tempted to try to learn it but I suspect it was years in the making.

Hu

If you can send me a pic of the guy I may be able to tell you who it was. Or post a piece or all of the video.