a question for Freddy the Beard

[lfigueroa]

Lou:

I'm going to have to respectfully (key operative word) disagree with you on this one. Unless I'm misunderstanding your verbal equation, scrutinize does NOT EQUAL disrespect. Scrutinize is just that -- scouring for, and analyzing details. One *can* respectfully scrutinize something; it's done in the academic world all the time with feedback on thesis papers, rebuttals to theories published in trade magazines, etc.

There is a difference between respectful and disrespectful analysis.

-Sean

Sean, it wasn't my equation, it looked to me to be Freddy's. Other than that, I think we're in agreement.

Lou Figueroa

By the way, to those who have already alluded to it: I don't usually post this much. I'm just stuck at home the last couple of days getting ready for family and in-between shampooing carpets and getting out the extra bed and cleaning bathrooms and stuff like there, the computer offers a nice break and mental amuse bouche.

 

[lfigueroa]

No, but I'll be glad to Wei-Wei on your leg.

Not even if I had just been stung by jelly fish

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Could you imagine how anyone of this site feels being in whatever career they are in and then have their credentials continually questioned by people not in the field or new to the field?

I know most of the "haters" on this site would not tolerate this at their work place, by folks not in the business or their nextdoor neighbor. Man, I really hate CSI because everyone thinks they are investigators now!!! And yes, much of the stuff on CSI is BS.

Imagine all the bangers feel the same way now that they can play a "little" pool, they all become experts and question the real experts in the game instead of learning the game or at least being respectful. So why would anyone want to subject themselves to scrutiny and harrassment with over 50 years of playing pool to a few knuckleheads that will just bend the thread away from the subject of knowledge and instead into a pissing contest?? But hey, thanks for ruining it for everyone else. For that reason, I"m not going to respond in this thread any further to any deragatory comments I feel are coming my way... You may have the last word if it makes you feel good, but I'm not chomping at the bit.

There has not been any questioning of credentials -- just one frippin' shot, for God's sake.

And asking about that shot does not make anyone a hater or knucklehead.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hu:
[snip Hu's usual insults]
I will bet anything we can both post that the tire will spin longer by the clock and further in distance as measured by the movement of a spot on the outside of the tire when I swipe my hand across the tire than when it is hit a single time.

What's the difference between "swipe" and "hit a single time"? Is it length of contact time?

The exact same thing applies to swiping across the face of a cue ball. First you get an angle of attack that can't be matched by a straight hit before it miscues.

I don't believe this is true. How can you demonstrate it?

Secondly you get increased dwell time on the cue ball and increased transfer of the force needed to spin the cue ball.

I don't believe this is true either. How can you demonstrate it?

[snip more of Hu's usual insults]
...the weakness of the various swiping strokes are that they require perfect timing. A little late and the stroke isn't nearly as effective, a little early and it can be a disaster.

That's the drawback, alright. All we need now is some way to demonstrate the advantages you claim.

pj
chgo

P.S. Why all the insults when I disagree with you? Is that against the rules?

 

[jay helfert]

I'm going to give the science guys something to ponder on right now. I learned a shot from Buddy about 25 years ago, and I still have no idea how it works. But it does. He showed me two balls frozen together with a third ball frozen on the bottom of the second ball. This last ball was also frozen on the rail. These three balls were about a diamond away from the corner pocket. Now he shot straight on at the first ball and made the ball come backwards into the corner pocket! HELLO! What just happened? It was like he put draw on the object ball and not the cue ball. The weirdest thing I ever saw.

To this day I don't know what forces are at work here but I can set this shot up and make it, about one out of three tries. That's good enough for me. I'd be glad to show it to you if we run into each other. And if you're a science guy you can explain to me how it works. Damn if I know.

P.S. I also showed Buddy a shot that day that he didn't know. By now I've probably taught this shot to a hundred people. You put two balls on the spot and the object is to shoot the second ball directly into the corner pocket. I will bet even money on making the second ball all day long. This is another shot I will be glad to show you when we meet. For free!

Buddy didn't know how until I showed him. He did what most good players try to do, jump the cue ball into the second ball. It can be done but is very difficult. I know the easy way to make this ball straight in. Do you?

 

[jay helfert]

There has not been any questioning of credentials -- just one frippin' shot, for God's sake.

And asking about that shot does not make anyone a hater or knucklehead.

Lou Figueroa

Reread your post #2!

 

[pvc lou]

would you please diagram that shot, jay?
are all three balls collinear, at a right angle with the rail?

thanks,

jg

I'm going to give the science guys something to ponder on right now. I learned a shot from Buddy about 25 years ago, and I still have no idea how it works. But it does. He showed me two balls frozen together with a third ball frozen on the bottom of the second ball. This last ball was also frozen on the rail. These three balls were about a diamond away from the corner pocket. Now he shot straight on at the first ball and made the ball come backwards, into the corner pocket! HELLO! What just happened? It was like he put draw on the object ball and not the cue ball. The weirdest thing I ever saw.

To this day I don't know what forces are at work here but I can set this shot up and make it, about one out of three tries. That's good enough for me. I'd be glad to show it to you if we run into each other. And if you're a science guy you can explain to me how it works. Damn if I know.

 

[jay helfert]

would you please diagram that shot, jay?
are all three balls collinear, at a right angle with the rail?

thanks,

jg

I don't have the Wei table but here goes. This shot will take some practice, but once you get the feel of it, you can make it come close most of the time. I will give you the easier version first. When you can make this, I will show you a harder way to do it.

The Reverse Ball Shot - Put the first ball on the end rail one diamond from the corner pocket. Place the second ball right next to it on the rail and frozen to the first ball. Place the third ball frozen to the second ball and at about a 30 degree angle off the rail. Place the cue ball directly in line with the angle made by the second and third ball, just off the side rail. The cue ball should be only a few inches apart from the closest object ball that you are trying to make go backwards into the corner pocket.

Shoot with center ball at moderate speed, hitting just barely to the right of center of the object ball. Viola! watch the object ball come backwards toward the corner pocket. It may take a little practice, but any reasonably competent player can learn this shot, and amaze his friends. Once you learn this version there are many variations that will also go. It can actually be made with no balls on the rail, but it is a much trickier hit.

I know this is junk science but who cares. It looks so cool when you make it. :grin:

 

[houmatroy]

You are dead on !

I didn't say it wasn't important to understand how things work, but many take an offensive approach to their line of questioning. There are many things that I know work, regardless of the science behind it. The people I take offense to most often are the ones who try to tell me it can't happen when I can clearly see that it does.

I have no quarrel with those who want to understand. I take issue with the ones who refuse to learn when they can't reason to prove it. People often argue with what they don't understand. If you want to learn, great. Some things work without understanding, regardless of if you can write the proof for it. 500 years ago, many couldn't explain the relation of the sun and earth, but the sun was there every morning.

Reminds me of when i use to work the rigs in the oilfield....you'd get these green engineers straight out of college that were as book smart as they come..and when there was a problem..they jump up there saying we got to do it like this cuz that's what the book says to do...and the old timers would just shake their head & say you got to do what works out here....PERIOD....that book can get people killed out here...alot of times there are better proven methods that don't necessarily agree with science.

 

[Perk]

Can someone please setup a WEI table with the 3 shots described in this thread?

1. wrist turn bank

2. Jays 3ball reverse ball

3. Jays 2 balls on spot and shot ball directly in corner


I would def appreciate it as I am not visualizing any of these shots and would like to try them. Thanks.

 

[eezbank]

Great post Hu! I had to borrow a couple of those lines for my signature! Spot on!!!!

From my post two hours before this one of yours, you are only saying exactly what I have already said in different words.



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pj,

Just because you disagree has little meaning, you would argue for days with a signpost. Two things make swiping across a cue ball done perfectly more effective than simply hitting it straight. The direction of force and the transfer of force.

As a for instance to try to help other readers understand, If we have a tire and wheel mounted so it is free spinning on an axle and bearings, I will swipe my hand across the tread of the tire and you are allowed to hit it one time with your hand from any direction you choose. I will bet anything we can both post that the tire will spin longer by the clock and further in distance as measured by the movement of a spot on the outside of the tire when I swipe my hand across the tire than when it is hit a single time.

The exact same thing applies to swiping across the face of a cue ball. First you get an angle of attack that can't be matched by a straight hit before it miscues. Secondly you get increased dwell time on the cue ball and increased transfer of the force needed to spin the cue ball.

Repeating for pj here since he has difficulty reading all of my posts and remembering what I just said, the weakness of the various swiping strokes are that they require perfect timing. A little late and the stroke isn't nearly as effective, a little early and it can be a disaster.

Hu

 

[Luxury]

I know Jays spot shot which blew a great one pocket players mind when I hit the first ball that was on the spot into my pocket with one ball behind it and I can explain it too.

Here is a less well known shot that I filmed that has the exact opposite effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX2OKcbjojU&sns=em


Sent from my iPhone

hopefully the video works.

 

[Luxury]

Wait I thought Jay was talking about making the first ball using massive draw to transfer follow. Now I'm really curious.

 

[pool101]

Thanks Jay,
I went out and shot it 8-10 times and the only time I missed was when everything didn't clear out of the path and that was my own fault!
But, that is a great shot and will have them scratcing their heads!!!Thanks again...and Merry Christmas to you.
Thanks Again,
Mark

I don't have the Wei table but here goes. This shot will take some practice, but once you get the feel of it, you can make it come close most of the time. I will give you the easier version first. When you can make this, I will show you a harder way to do it.

The Reverse Ball Shot - Put the first ball on the end rail one diamond from the corner pocket. Place the second ball right next to it on the rail and frozen to the first ball. Place the third ball frozen to the second ball and at about a 30 degree angle off the rail. Place the cue ball directly in line with the angle made by the second and third ball, just off the side rail. The cue ball should be only a few inches apart from the closest object ball that you are trying to make go backwards into the corner pocket.

Shoot with center ball at moderate speed, hitting just barely to the right of center of the object ball. Viola! watch the object ball come backwards toward the corner pocket. It may take a little practice, but any reasonably competent player can learn this shot, and amaze his friends. Once you learn this version there are many variations that will also go. It can actually be made with no balls on the rail, but it is a much trickier hit.

I know this is junk science but who cares. It looks so cool when you make it. :grin:

 

[pool101]

One more thing..I was told we were born with 2 ears and 1 mouth... that is a 2 to 1 Ratio, and we should use them in that order!!!! : )
I don't know why it works.... but it does..., and I will learn from it.......
Merry Christmas to all..
Mark

 

[OneinaRow]

Freddy and Jay

I know this started as a ques. to "the beard" but feel its turned into a "can you give scientific and video" proof thread. Just wanted to thank you both for all of the incredible and entertaining stories, insights, and bits of pool knowledge that yous graciously pass along for anyone to enjoy and learn from. Just read "Pool Wars" and finished "Banking with the Beard" this summer. AWESOME stories guys!!!!!! Thanks again for all of the insights yous give; MUCH APPRECIATED!!

One day when the economy turns I will make the Derby again (made 06-08) and hope to have the chance to shake hands with you legends and maybe a cool adult beverage. Josh Coffin, master of oneinarow with ball in hand (sometimes!)

 

[pvc lou]

i'll play with it tonight and get back to you, jay.

jg

I don't have the Wei table but here goes. This shot will take some practice, but once you get the feel of it, you can make it come close most of the time. I will give you the easier version first. When you can make this, I will show you a harder way to do it.

The Reverse Ball Shot - Put the first ball on the end rail one diamond from the corner pocket. Place the second ball right next to it on the rail and frozen to the first ball. Place the third ball frozen to the second ball and at about a 30 degree angle off the rail. Place the cue ball directly in line with the angle made by the second and third ball, just off the side rail. The cue ball should be only a few inches apart from the closest object ball that you are trying to make go backwards into the corner pocket.

Shoot with center ball at moderate speed, hitting just barely to the right of center of the object ball. Viola! watch the object ball come backwards toward the corner pocket. It may take a little practice, but any reasonably competent player can learn this shot, and amaze his friends. Once you learn this version there are many variations that will also go. It can actually be made with no balls on the rail, but it is a much trickier hit.

I know this is junk science but who cares. It looks so cool when you make it. :grin:

 

[pool101]

Is this the shot Jay???
http://www.youtube.com/user/pool2021#p/a/u/0/z2ByPAouy_g

 

[alstl]

Reminds me of when i use to work the rigs in the oilfield....you'd get these green engineers straight out of college that were as book smart as they come..and when there was a problem..they jump up there saying we got to do it like this cuz that's what the book says to do...and the old timers would just shake their head & say you got to do what works out here....PERIOD....that book can get people killed out here...alot of times there are better proven methods that don't necessarily agree with science.

Book smart and street stupid.

 

[alstl]

I'm going to give the science guys something to ponder on right now. I learned a shot from Buddy about 25 years ago, and I still have no idea how it works. But it does. He showed me two balls frozen together with a third ball frozen on the bottom of the second ball. This last ball was also frozen on the rail. These three balls were about a diamond away from the corner pocket. Now he shot straight on at the first ball and made the ball come backwards into the corner pocket! HELLO! What just happened? It was like he put draw on the object ball and not the cue ball. The weirdest thing I ever saw.

To this day I don't know what forces are at work here but I can set this shot up and make it, about one out of three tries. That's good enough for me. I'd be glad to show it to you if we run into each other. And if you're a science guy you can explain to me how it works. Damn if I know.

P.S. I also showed Buddy a shot that day that he didn't know. By now I've probably taught this shot to a hundred people. You put two balls on the spot and the object is to shoot the second ball directly into the corner pocket. I will bet even money on making the second ball all day long. This is another shot I will be glad to show you when we meet. For free!

Buddy didn't know how until I showed him. He did what most good players try to do, jump the cue ball into the second ball. It can be done but is very difficult. I know the easy way to make this ball straight in. Do you?

Sounds like a shot that could come in handy in one pocket.