Scott Frost vs The So Called One Pocket Greats

A lot of good opinions on the thread....and one hypothetical question that I've often pondered, is related to what Celtic posted....

If the highest level of pool players, such as: Corey, Shane, Alex, Mika, Ralf, Orcullo, Van Corteza, and the best Japanese and Taiwanese players, intensely learned, practiced, and played One Pocket as their main game for 10 years, how good would they get? - less than R.A. and Efren? - equal to them? - or maybe even better....but, unfortunately, we'll never know.


- Ghost
 
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Fast Lenny said:
I agree Chris, Billy has seen, played and gambled with the best of them and has seen more of Scott in high dollar action then anyone on here so I trust his word on this. San Jose rates Scott with Ed Kelly and Jersey Red tied for 3rd so Scott is one of the best one pocket players ever, nuff said. :smile:
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None of you guys know when you're getting hustled. I will say this, the old time hustlers were better then the current crop. :rolleyes:
 
Celtic said:
There is hardly any video of the greats playing in their primes at all. That is a large part of why we are here debating this.

Efren would most definately be getting the same disrespect 50 years down the road from the new generation of that era (the future versions of you) if it were not for video, and how much of that video will be easily found in 2050 is itself debatable. There will certainly be people saying he played no better then a shortstop compared to the 2050 people and that some 20th ranked player in 2050 would smoke him for the cash.
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Exactly. But these debates keep the names of the old-timers alive, and that's something at least. Otherwise the sharpshooters of today might never even hear about the greats of yesterday, much less think about them.

I'm curious about something. For as great as he plays, does Donny Mills know who Harold Worst is? World three cushion champion in the 50's who took up pool when three cushion died in the USA and then became - according to some (like Freddy) - the most feared pool player of the 60's (he died in 1966). That is a story worth telling again and again.
 
Rich93 said:
Exactly. But these debates keep the names of the old-timers alive, and that's something at least. Otherwise the sharpshooters of today might never even hear about the greats of yesterday, much less think about them.

I'm curious about something. For as great as he plays, does Donny Mills know who Harold Worst is? World three cushion champion in the 50's who took up pool when three cushion died in the USA and then became - according to some (like Freddy) - the most feared pool player of the 60's (he died in 1966). That is a story worth telling again and again.
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I saw him play. He'd probably need the five ball from Bartram. :rolleyes:
 
Celtic said:
1966 I believe, and the table was a slow gold crown 1.

But buckets Donny? You don't know the half of it, the table actually had no pockets, it was simply a piece of slate with cloth, no rails or nothing, you simply had to knock the object ball off the table and it was consdered a pot, he would break the rack and simply call "corner ball, off the table" 6 other balls would fall off the table on the same shot, it was ridiculous.
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I coulda' been a contenda' under those conditions.
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
If the highest level of pool players, such as: Corey, Shane, Alex, Mika, Ralf, Orcullo, Van Corteza, and the best Japanese and Taiwanese players, intensely learned, practiced, and played One Pocket as their main game for 10 years, how good would they get? - less than R.A. and Efren? - equal to them? - or maybe even better....but, unfortunately, we'll never know.
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It depends on the individual player IMO, the game takes a certain patience and innovation that 9-ball lacks. So being a master in 9-ball will not automatically mean you will excel at 1-pocket.

That said, some of those guys show some of the elements that make a great 1-pocket player.

Alex was actually pretty good at the game in his younger years. I think he could have been great had he stuck with it. His style of 9-ball is the type of game that transfers to 1-pocket well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrrBwmzVP3s

Corey with his innovation, knowledge of the rails, finesse and touch, he would have made a killer 1-pocket player. He could outthink, outshoot, and outmove people like crazy if he commited to the game.

Shane, he is going to play any game with a cue well but I don't think his natural talents would lead to 1-pocket being his best game. I think rotational pool is the perfect type of game for his strengths. I don't think Shane would be the best at 1-pocket in a world where everyone was playing it.

Mika, Lee Van, same as Shane IMO, their strengths that make them so deadly in rotational pool are not what makes a great 1-pocket player.

Orcullo, I think he might make a monster 1-pocket player. He has potting ability second to none and he really thinks through things well. IMO his strengths are not totally made for rotational pool, and yet he is phenomenal at it all the same.

Ralf, this is a tough call. I think he would be very good but I am not totally sure if he has the knowledge of the rails and innovation to be the best at 1-pocket. His style of 9-ball is control and making the game easy, 1-pocket is a game where you are constantly shooint from a tough leave by your opponent and control comes and goes quickly.

Wu and the other Taiwanese players? Wu, Kuo, Yang, these guys are in the same boat as Shane. But Chou, that guy might have been different.
 
I like Scotts game.

It's so hard to rate a player and say this guy could beat this guy. We need to take each one of these players and look at their top game. The time when everything was going right. Lots of action and having someone to fire at.

I've known Scott Frost when he was just a puppy. Watched him learn and grow. He was always fun to be around. He grew into quite a competitor.

Give Scott a steady diet of action everyday and I like his one hole game against anyone. In fact I'd like to see his 9 ball game also.

From what I saw when I was in Phoenix last June, July and august he doesn't really get any action. He had such a great run that he just chewed everyone up and spit them out that he played.

Bottom line though, your only as good right now today by what you can do today. That's why we play tournaments and money matches. To see who can do it right now.

I picture Scott as being a gold fish in a big bowl. The bowl being Phoenix. He gets hardly no action there and to travel to play it's a long wheres to anywhere.

What Scott needs is for someone to throw about 10 killer whales in his bowl. Then we will see the real deal. And I guarantee Scott would hold his own. Plus I can guarantee this also, he would create more action in a year than many players see in 10.

I don't think you see too many players running to Phoenix to get a piece of Scott Frost unless they don't like money.

Bottom line, you can practice all you want but a player needs action all the time to stay competition sharp. Most of the great players know this.

Scott's my man but he needs to be in this competition tough mode. Like I said then we can judge the real deal.........

Just my opinion ........Have a great day geno.............:cool::smile
 
jay helfert said:
Ronnie always was a good hustler. :wink: He never bragged about his game, only downplayed it. One reason why he caught so many fish. I give up arguing about it though. You guys are right, none of the old timers could play a lick. Just because they were playing with super slow cloth and four and a half inch straight cut pockets meant nothing.

If everyone thinks they were all buckets they never looked at the pockets in the practice room of the tournaments. I did. I specifically asked Al Conte to make them play tough and he did. The tables in the back room at Johnston City and the Stardust were not buckets either. Perhaps there were five inch pockets in some poolrooms, but not the action rooms, like The Billiard Palace in Bellflower. Butch (the Owner) liked them to play tough too.

The biggest games were on 5x10 Snooker tables with little bitty pockets. If anyone had seen Denny Searcy play Pay Ball on that table, they would bite their tongue forever. He made shots down the rail that NO current champion could make. Not Earl, not anyone! Not even the great Donny Mills! :grin:
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Jay,the point I was trying to make was that todays equiptment is more condusive to an offensive game, unlike years ago where the conditions often dictated how to play strategically. The tables if anything were probably tougher to play on back then, not because the pockets were tighter but because humidity affected the playability of the tables much more then, than today. As far as judging the ability of players then and now it would be very difficult because the equiptment was differen't. But it stands to reason that todays players are as good or better then players of the 60' and 70's. But playing the game of one pocket that doesn't necessarily have to be true. Todays players play more agressively then the last generation of players, because the equiptment is designed for an offensive game. If the equiptment was still the same today as it was back then we could make a better comparison.

If we could put Frost back to the past and have him play Ronnie or Ed Kelley I don't think he could of beaten either player, especially Kelley because Kelley would of clearly outmanaged him. And if we could of put Ronnie and Kelley with Frost today I think that it would be very interesting.
Lets not sell todays players short because they play the style best suited for todays equiptment.

This is just my opinion and obviously will be contested, but it's something to think about.
 
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wincardona said:
If we could put Frost back to the past and have him play Ronnie or Ed Kelley I don't think he could of beaten either player, especially Kelley because Kelley would of clearly outmanaged him. And if we could of put Ronnie and Kelley with Frost today I think that it would be very interesting.
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Kind of what I was getting at a couple times, but I am not old enough to really know how good Ed or Ronnie shot.

If Ed or Ronnie were warped in their early 20's to 1990 and then basically have been a part of the pool scene during the same era of Efren, would Efren have had his hands full? Or would he still have rose above and become the master, even with those two former greats now existing in the same era?
 
Celtic said:
Kind of what I was getting at a couple times, but I am not old enough to really know how good Ed or Ronnie shot.

If Ed or Ronnie were warped in their early 20's to 1990 and then basically have been a part of the pool scene during the same era of Efren, would Efren have had his hands full? Or would he still have rose above and become the master, even with those two former greats now existing in the same era?
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I feel that Reyes is the best player by far, that I have ever watched play pool. Reyes obviously can change his game regardless of the conditions, that has been proven by his ability to play under the most adverse conditions in the Philippines.

If Reyes would of played one pocket in the 60's it wouldn't of been difficult for him to adjust to the conditions, because he's the most intellgent skilled player that i've ever watched play.I've watched Reyes do more inexplicable stough on a pool table then any 5 players. He never ceases to amaze me. He is clearly a ball better than any modern day player (when he was at the top of his game) and I would feel strongly that he would be a ball better then any player of any generation if he played in their time.
 
What a great thread!

Scott is the reason I play one pocket. I wish all pool players had a chance to watch him or Efren play the game. It might make one pocket the number one game like it should be.(at least in places with 9 footers)


I've watched Efren for about 7 or 8 years and I find it hard to belive that anyone could beat that man in one pocket. He has waded through so many huge fields with short races in one pocket tournaments and makes top pros look silly.

Scott is not quite at that level but he sill might be the second best on the planet. His moves are overpowering! People who say he can't move that good are idiots. He moves the whole stack with his offensive moves sometimes. He also breaks balls off the stack to keep running as good as anyone.

One thing that has held Scott back in big tournaments is that he often gambles all night and still tries to play the tournament. That is tough to do.
 
real bartram said:
jay you really dont know what you think you know about pool.
i saw that in the alex thread with shannon corn bread and who ever else they talked about alex would rob those guys.
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I know that you think you know something I don't know. Do you know that? :grin:

I was only making a joke about you giving Worst the five ball. I guess you didn't get it. By the way, do you think Alex would "rob" Shannon playing Banks? I'm just curious because I know you're a very good handicapper.
 
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Celtic said:
There is hardly any video of the greats playing in their primes at all. That is a large part of why we are here debating this.

Efren would most definately be getting the same disrespect 50 years down the road from the new generation of that era (the future versions of you) if it were not for video, and how much of that video will be easily found in 2050 is itself debatable. There will certainly be people saying he played no better then a shortstop compared to the 2050 people and that some 20th ranked player in 2050 would smoke him for the cash.
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Lol it's not disrepspect, it's just so obivous that players get better every decade. Look at how much stronger players are now compared to twenty years ago.

I bet I'm not alone on this one either and I bet great handicappers will agree with me on this. Dennis orcollo is a better 10ball player than efren was in his prime.
 
wincardona said:
Jay,the point I was trying to make was that todays equiptment is more condusive to an offensive game, unlike years ago where the conditions often dictated how to play strategically. The tables if anything were probably tougher to play on back then, not because the pockets were tighter but because humidity affected the playability of the tables much more then, than today. As far as judging the ability of players then and now it would be very difficult because the equiptment was differen't. But it stands to reason that todays players are as good or better then players of the 60' and 70's. But playing the game of one pocket that doesn't necessarily have to be true. Todays players play more agressively then the last generation of players, because the equiptment is designed for an offensive game. If the equiptment was still the same today as it was back then we could make a better comparison.

If we could put Frost back to the past and have him play Ronnie or Ed Kelley I don't think he could of beaten either player, especially Kelley because Kelley would of clearly outmanaged him. And if we could of put Ronnie and Kelley with Frost today I think that it would be very interesting.
Lets not sell todays players short because they play the style best suited for todays equiptment.

This is just my opinion and obviously will be contested, but it's something to think about.
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Thanks for this analysis Billy. You are a bonafide pool scientist!
 
senor said:
You aren't taking into consideration that the 40 balls run were done on nap cloth. You probably have as well, but I've played nine ball and one pocket on tight nine foots with nap cloth and with simonis cloth. Simonis cloth is a great equalizer. Anyone with a little poke stroke runs out. So it makes sense that as equipment 'improves' so does the level of play.
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Well then how about explaining the high straight pool run by mosconi on nap cloth... Get it? Anyone with a little poke stroke? Lol!

One thing I've noticed is that peoples strokes don't change. Example buddy hall. I've seen mosconis stroke and their is no way he could draw balls etc like svb. I'll tellem. I saw lassiters stroke when he was old and it seemed powerful. Another thing is this, 4 1/2 inch pockets on gold crowns play like slop buckets.
 
jay helfert said:
I know that you think you know something I don't know. Do you know that? :grin:

I was only making a joke about you giving Crane the five ball. I guess you didn't get it. By the way, do you think Alex would "rob" Shannon playing Banks? I'm just curious because I know you're a very good handicapper.
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no banks shannon would rob him.
but we have 10 ball alex rob
8 ball alex rob
14.1 alex rob.
one pocket alex wins close
 
donny mills said:
Lol it's not disrepspect, it's just so obivous that players get better every decade. Look at how much stronger players are now compared to twenty years ago.

I bet I'm not alone on this one either and I bet great handicappers will agree with me on this. Dennis orcollo is a better 10ball player than efren was in his prime.
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Doony, with all due respect pool is not a strength sport like football, baseball or even golf. It is more about finesse and knowledge. I do agree that in games like 9-Ball and Ten Ball today's best players may be better than the best players of a generation or two ago. Although I might add, that I saw money matches years ago where players ran rack after rack. That is where the best pool is usually played, in a back room with cash on the line.

In games like One Pocket and Straight Pool where there is so much emphasis on overall knowledge, I'm not so sure todays' players are any better than the best players of previous generations. Only Efren stands out from the pack in this respect. Moreso, if somehow Bugs and Taylor could magically be transported to the present, I think some eyes would bulge upon seeing them bank balls. They would adjust to the fast cloth overnight IMO.

My opinion, limited though it is, remains that the very best players from one, two and even three generations ago were the equal of the best players today. Guys like Mosconi, Crane, Caras, Lassiter, Worst, Balsis, Kelly, Hall and Mizerak could have played and done well in any generation. And in One Pocket, Ronnie is still the best I ever saw. Even better than Alex! :eek:
 
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