More elbow dropping nonsense

[SpiderWebComm]

Still skeptical. I've seen Larry Nevel, Mark Wilson, George Breedlove, and Marvin Anders generate monstrous speed with no perceptible elbow drop. I do not think it is "required" to generate speed; is it a "game enhancement" feature for helping follow through for some as Number Six suggests - maybe....but I was only addressing the power issue.

I have studied this from a biomechanical standpoint (I am an M.D.); and discussed it at length with a leading orthopedic surgeon - neither of us can see any way that speed of stroke will be increased by an elbow drop. My sympathy to those who believe it strongly - but I'm open to some proof that will change what seems biomechanically obvious (opinions do not count - a valuable concept for which we must wholeheartedly thank Dr. Dave for introducing to a resistant pool public).

Perhaps because so many have always played with an elbow drop; they have the definite (and proper) perception that they can't generate as much power with no drop - had they spent the same thousands of hours during their development with no drop; they might properly feel that the drop hinders their power. Maybe, as in the movie Meatballs, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER."

I question you can break as hard without it versus with it. Looking at centripetal force from the elbow to your hand is a smaller circle than from your shoulder to your hand, imo. Isolating the movement from your elbow logically can't get you the same speed as a coordinated movement from your shoulder, elbow, wrist and legs. That's why no one breaks with a pinned elbow - you just can't get the same "whip" affect.

I'm not (nor do I think anyone) is saying a pendulum stroke is any weaker when you play standard shots. Breaking is def an example where pinning the elbow isn't smart, imo.

 

[Williebetmore]

I'm not (nor do I think anyone) is saying a pendulum stroke is any weaker when you play standard shots.

D,
I thought that WAS what many posters were saying; and that's all I was addressing (please see the very first post in this thread by that trouble maker Spidey - it involves "how many elbow drops" during play...though I didn't look at the video, my computer won't allow it).

I have no interest in a "power break" discussion; even when I'm bored...I seem to use the break cue only rarely in my straight pool games.

 

[Masayoshi]

Still skeptical. I've seen Larry Nevel, Mark Wilson, George Breedlove, and Marvin Anders generate monstrous speed with no perceptible elbow drop. I do not think it is "required" to generate speed; is it a "game enhancement" feature for helping follow through for some as Number Six suggests - maybe....but I was only addressing the power issue.

I have studied this from a biomechanical standpoint (I am an M.D.); and discussed it at length with a leading orthopedic surgeon - neither of us can see any way that speed of stroke will be increased by an elbow drop. My sympathy to those who believe it strongly - but I'm open to some proof that will change what seems biomechanically obvious (opinions do not count - a valuable concept for which we must wholeheartedly thank Dr. Dave for introducing to a resistant pool public).

Perhaps because so many have always played with an elbow drop; they have the definite (and proper) perception that they can't generate as much power with no drop - had they spent the same thousands of hours during their development with no drop; they might properly feel that the drop hinders their power. Maybe, as in the movie Meatballs, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8YPX_MXkRQ - Larry Nevel elbow drops on his first shot at around the 4:00 mark and on pretty much every shot after that. Oddly enough, he doesn't elbow drop much on his trick shot video, but in that video he is using a pretty crazy wrist snap. If you want to argue that wrist snap is more consistent than a good elbow drop stroke, good luck.

Sorry, I couldn't find any footage of the other guys you mentioned.

Also, It's not that higher speed is generated with an elbow drop, it's that the elbow drop facilitates as straight a follow through as possible and, if everything is in line, as straight a stroke as possible. The straighter the stroke, the more clean the hit. The more clean the hit, the more power you can get.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

D,

I have no interest in a "power break" discussion; even when I'm bored...I seem to use the break cue only rarely in my straight pool games.

That was a Mike Sigel video, btw- he dropped his elbow on every shot. I HEAR ya brother--- I never use my break cue in 14.1 either--- and that's all I play too!

 

[softshot]

yet, you have the U.K.'s top snooker coach teaching the elbow drop

there is a differance between the U.K.'s top snooker coach...

and a guy who claims to be U.K.'s top snooker coach..

Top Snooker coaches have names like Ray Reardon, Steve Davis, Frank Callan

I did a google search for snooker coaching.. the only links with Lee Bretts name were from AZbilliards..

I guess there is such a thing as a snooker hustler..

head across the pond and claim to be world class at snooker... noone will check... hell start charging for lessons... you'll make a bundle before someone outs ya...




easy and repeatable.. that is the name of the game...

P.S. I can generate just as much power on a break..as anyone else... without changing my stroke or stance.. I don't even need a banshee war yell... I must be a freak of nature

 

[JoeyInCali]

You have our instructors who are all about the pendulum as being the most repeatable way to hit a ball; yet, you have the U.K.'s top snooker coach teaching the elbow drop (you have to be repeatable in snooker too, no?).

Just like the other's, I'd love to hear a debate between two knowledgeable guys. If someone can get ahold of Dell Hill, I'll sponsor a webcast between he and one or two of our guys (maybe Scott and Randy).

I'd love to sweat a friendly intellectual debate on whether or not to follow-through with your elbow. I can prob stream it to about 50 azb people or so, live.


Dave

Or we can just watch Parica, Hall, Efren, Davenport and Souquet videos .
:smile:
I think to drop or not to drop the elbow debate can be switched to follow through the ball or not debate.

 

[Williebetmore]

Or we can just watch Parica, Hall, Efren, Davenport and Souquet videos .
:smile:
I think to drop or not to drop the elbow debate can be switched to follow through the ball or not debate.

JC,
You are correct; now that all are agreed that the world is flat, and that the universe revolves around the earth; we can progress to discussing things of which we are even more certain (no sense waiting around for proof as long as everyone agrees and does it....).

Errrr.....wait.....Greenleaf and Mosconi not only dropped a bit; but they also had an inside elbow...they played better than the other guys in this thread....we need to reevaluate...Mosconi almost always wore a suit....we ALL must wear suits from now on, for it will certainly make us play better using the main thrust of the reasoning delivered so far in this oh so deep thread.

 

[randyg]

You have our instructors who are all about the pendulum as being the most repeatable way to hit a ball; yet, you have the U.K.'s top snooker coach teaching the elbow drop (you have to be repeatable in snooker too, no?).

Just like the other's, I'd love to hear a debate between two knowledgeable guys. If someone can get ahold of Dell Hill, I'll sponsor a webcast between he and one or two of our guys (maybe Scott and Randy).

I'd love to sweat a friendly intellectual debate on whether or not to follow-through with your elbow. I can prob stream it to about 50 azb people or so, live.


Dave

Count me in....SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

Still skeptical. I've seen Larry Nevel, Mark Wilson, George Breedlove, and Marvin Anders generate monstrous speed with no perceptible elbow drop. I do not think it is "required" to generate speed; is it a "game enhancement" feature for helping follow through for some as Number Six suggests - maybe....but I was only addressing the power issue.

I have studied this from a biomechanical standpoint (I am an M.D.); and discussed it at length with a leading orthopedic surgeon - neither of us can see any way that speed of stroke will be increased by an elbow drop. My sympathy to those who believe it strongly - but I'm open to some proof that will change what seems biomechanically obvious (opinions do not count - a valuable concept for which we must wholeheartedly thank Dr. Dave for introducing to a resistant pool public).

Perhaps because so many have always played with an elbow drop; they have the definite (and proper) perception that they can't generate as much power with no drop - had they spent the same thousands of hours during their development with no drop; they might properly feel that the drop hinders their power. Maybe, as in the movie Meatballs, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER."

OUTSTANDING, thanks Williebetmore....SPF=randyg

 

[MitchDAZB]

The elbow drop is not about introducing any muscles or moving parts that increase power, rather it's about facilitating a proper follow through so that you can finish your stroke.

+1. Yes. Bingo.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

there is a differance between the U.K.'s top snooker coach...

and a guy who claims to be U.K.'s top snooker coach..

Top Snooker coaches have names like Ray Reardon, Steve Davis, Frank Callan

I did a google search for snooker coaching.. the only links with Lee Bretts name were from AZbilliards..

I guess there is such a thing as a snooker hustler..

head across the pond and claim to be world class at snooker... noone will check... hell start charging for lessons... you'll make a bundle before someone outs ya...




easy and repeatable.. that is the name of the game...

P.S. I can generate just as much power on a break..as anyone else... without changing my stroke or stance.. I don't even need a banshee war yell... I must be a freak of nature

I found some snooker coaching videos on YouTube from Steve Davis and Jack Karnehm. Neither of them say you shouldn't drop your elbow. Steve just says it is important to position your elbow over the cue. So does Ronnie (who has been coached by Del Hill) in his snooker school lessons, and he also adds that you should hit the cueball "with the elbow" which is "the most consistent way of getting a straight, positive, consistent shot everytime you play".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYB2id9qyL8

I also think that Ronnie has a very beautiful cue action.

 

[maldito]

Starting with his first shot count how many times he does not stay down on a shot.

 

[Scott Lee]

maldito...It just goes to show you how many pros can take bad habits, work them long enough, and be successful with them. IMO that's what's wrong with this whole thread. Instead of trying to copy what a few (dozen) pros do, why not figure out what works best for the individual? Like Neil said, if you're struggling with a repeatable stroke, the shooting template and pendulum swing are easy ways to improve (along with the ability to measure improvement and correct errors), for the vast majority of amateur players...which is exactly why we teach what we teach. If you're happy with your current level of ability, doing what you do (elbow drop or otherwise), then by all means continue! If not, that's why people like randyg, myself, pooltcher, Mark Wilson, Mike Page, Denny Stewart, Stan Shuffet, Tom Seymore, dr9ball, and many other fine instructors are out there.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Starting with his first shot count how many times he does not stay down on a shot.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Still skeptical. I've seen Larry Nevel, Mark Wilson, George Breedlove, and Marvin Anders generate monstrous speed with no perceptible elbow drop. I do not think it is "required" to generate speed; is it a "game enhancement" feature for helping follow through for some as Number Six suggests - maybe....but I was only addressing the power issue.

I have studied this from a biomechanical standpoint (I am an M.D.); and discussed it at length with a leading orthopedic surgeon - neither of us can see any way that speed of stroke will be increased by an elbow drop. My sympathy to those who believe it strongly - but I'm open to some proof that will change what seems biomechanically obvious (opinions do not count - a valuable concept for which we must wholeheartedly thank Dr. Dave for introducing to a resistant pool public).

Perhaps because so many have always played with an elbow drop; they have the definite (and proper) perception that they can't generate as much power with no drop - had they spent the same thousands of hours during their development with no drop; they might properly feel that the drop hinders their power. Maybe, as in the movie Meatballs, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER."

Ok Willie, here is an experiment for you. Get into a shooting stance without a cue. Make it so that your upper arm on your shooting arm is parallel to the floor, with your forearm hanging straight down to form a 90 degree angle. You may have your elbow in a different position than this, but it isn't important for this experiment. Now, go ahead and move the elbow down. The will be causing your shoulder joint to rotate. Keep the 90 bend in your elbow fixed, since we are trying to isolate the variable of dropping the elbow. Now, what do you observe? When I drop my elbow about six inches, I see that my hand has moved down, but has also moved forward some. Now try the extreme...start off with your upper arm angled *downward* at about 45 degrees. This would simulate the position of the elbow for a power breaker, like say SVB, after they have stood up a bit in their stroke. Go ahead and move the elbow down now. I think you can clearly see that the hand moves primarily *forward* at this point.

Based on this, it is hard to imagine that you could say that the elbow drop adds nothing to the stroke. Now granted, you need to place your arm in an unorthodox position to rally derive the benefit, but there *is* a difference there. Combine this type of motion with a traditional arm swing in which the elbow rotates and the forearm is contracted by the bicep, and you get a nice additive effect that really ramps up break speed.

On standard shots, I would agree that the elbow drop adds little, but it does have the potential to add something.

What do you think?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

D,
I thought that WAS what many posters were saying; and that's all I was addressing (please see the very first post in this thread by that trouble maker Spidey - it involves "how many elbow drops" during play...though I didn't look at the video, my computer won't allow it).

I have no interest in a "power break" discussion; even when I'm bored...I seem to use the break cue only rarely in my straight pool games.

Actually, I believe the original poster said exactly that, since they mentioned how Allison Fisher was "handicapped" with a weak stroke due to lack of elbow drop (which isn't true...she absolutely does drop her elbow. She didn't used to. Why the change I wonder?)

KMRUNOUT

 

[sillisoy]

Drop vs no Drop ... talking bout elbows

I myself have started using the elbow drop (aka shoulder flexion) for about 6 months now ... finally started to have it fully under my control and the timing could use some fixing but all in all... i have the power and accuracy i wanted from the stroke.

Lemme say 1st of all that the game of pool has many different strokes, and its a matter of learning them all not a matter of which is best, which is worst... more like which is obsolete and which you should really use on this f***ing hard shot and what not
Stroke types i know: regular pendulum, dropped elbow, wrist stroke, reverse slip stroke and slip stroke.
Stroke percentage and usage: regular pendulum (5%), dropped elbow (90%), wrist stroke (2-3%), reverse slip stroke (<1%), slip stroke (1-2%)

that being said lets try to get everyone on the same page about the drop elbow aka. flex the shoulder or for most people just getting the shoulder involved with the right timing.

from a pendulum stroke to a elbow drop stroke the main differences are as follows
1st pendulum strokers can get much lower to the cue... to where there chin gets a nice valley... or butt chin... however you wanna see it
Reason being is that in a pendulum stroke the elbow is static/stuck
/doesnt do shit.
The stroke power is generated from the wrist and the forearm
The spin power is generated from the amounts of tips you cue with
(say max 3 tips of english in any direction)
The follow through is max about 4inches ... to measure your follow through with this stroke use the pendulum and from where the elbow is 90 degrees to where your wrist is fully extended fowards is about your follow through... do you look like a T-rex yet... or is your arm more like a chicken wing
2nd the pendulum i feel created less cue ball movement and is used more for keeping the cue ball in the center of the table with small stun/tick shots.
3rd the pendulum should be used for jacked up shots like OTB or when you just hafta draw and your on the rail....

Thats it for the pendulum stroke its good for doing simplistic stuff and honestly its prolly all you need from the game....
BUTTTTT......
what about recovery strokes?
what about full table draw without miscue-ing?
what about acheiving more english with less force?
what about gracefulness/ fluidity?
what about not looking like a T-rex/chicken wing when you shoot?
finally what bending the ball to your every whim?

the elbow drop does it ... it really does
1st imagine your cue is part of your ENTIRE arm... not just your forearm!!!
extend your arm out straight holding your cue in your wrist like your pointing at someone with it
that is full extension --> notice the shoulder is now flexed and the elbow is fully extended and the wrist is bent downwards.
(thats max extension of 3 feet vs. 4 inches in pendulum stroke)
Okay okay .... neither professionals nor any pool player can pull a 3' follow through... the cue ball will leave way before then. but how about a 10" or 12" follow through - No Problem

tricks to learning elbow drop
1. get into pendulum style
2. aim
3. slightly raise your upper body ... let your arm have clearance to swing thru underneath
4. TIMING... TIMING... TIMING
the cue must accelerate thru the cue ball and continue acceleration til desired follow thru
5. so whats the timing?
- backswing
- get back to neutral (this is where your elbow is at 90 degrees and the cue is about to make contact with the cueball)
- before neutral your shoulder starts initiating movement
- Lock elbow at 90 degrees when shoulder is in movement.... the elbow should never bend past 90 degrees because that would mean the cueball will be hit and long gone before the stroke is done

- now initiate front swing with both the shoulder continue to flex and the elbow now extending and straightening out
- WHAT ABOUT THE WRIST... the wrist is to keep the cue level and in line ... you really dont need a wrist to generate the power ... therefore dont snap it like you would with a pendulum. just let it bend with the cue to keep the cue straight.

the whole stroke is alot slower in timing then you think... dont rush be patient ...
last tip*** get a mop... pretend your mopping some hardwood and just learn how to extend that elbow
So the knowledge bomb has been dropped.
Give me the 7 out and we'll call it even
sam

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Actually, I believe the original poster said exactly that, since they mentioned how Allison Fisher was "handicapped" with a weak stroke due to lack of elbow drop (which isn't true...she absolutely does drop her elbow. She didn't used to. Why the change I wonder?)

KMRUNOUT

Spider, sorry I checked. It wasn't you that made the comment about Allison Fisher.

 

[ShootingArts]

interestink

veddy veddy interestink!!

I can only get about 30" of follow through sitting here in my office chair and dropping the elbow.

OOOOPPPSSS!!!! and aw sh*TT!!!

OK, now I have 44" of follow through and a hole through both sides of a sheetrock wall. I think you need to come help me do some 'splaining. I'm sticking with the story it is all your fault until you get here!

Hu

I myself have started using the elbow drop (aka shoulder flexion) for about 6 months now ... finally started to have it fully under my control and the timing could use some fixing but all in all... i have the power and accuracy i wanted from the stroke.

Lemme say 1st of all that the game of pool has many different strokes, and its a matter of learning them all not a matter of which is best, which is worst... more like which is obsolete and which you should really use on this f***ing hard shot and what not
Stroke types i know: regular pendulum, dropped elbow, wrist stroke, reverse slip stroke and slip stroke.
Stroke percentage and usage: regular pendulum (5%), dropped elbow (90%), wrist stroke (2-3%), reverse slip stroke (<1%), slip stroke (1-2%)

that being said lets try to get everyone on the same page about the drop elbow aka. flex the shoulder or for most people just getting the shoulder involved with the right timing.

from a pendulum stroke to a elbow drop stroke the main differences are as follows
1st pendulum strokers can get much lower to the cue... to where there chin gets a nice valley... or butt chin... however you wanna see it
Reason being is that in a pendulum stroke the elbow is static/stuck
/doesnt do shit.
The stroke power is generated from the wrist and the forearm
The spin power is generated from the amounts of tips you cue with
(say max 3 tips of english in any direction)
The follow through is max about 4inches ... to measure your follow through with this stroke use the pendulum and from where the elbow is 90 degrees to where your wrist is fully extended fowards is about your follow through... do you look like a T-rex yet... or is your arm more like a chicken wing
2nd the pendulum i feel created less cue ball movement and is used more for keeping the cue ball in the center of the table with small stun/tick shots.
3rd the pendulum should be used for jacked up shots like OTB or when you just hafta draw and your on the rail....

Thats it for the pendulum stroke its good for doing simplistic stuff and honestly its prolly all you need from the game....
BUTTTTT......
what about recovery strokes?
what about full table draw without miscue-ing?
what about acheiving more english with less force?
what about gracefulness/ fluidity?
what about not looking like a T-rex/chicken wing when you shoot?
finally what bending the ball to your every whim?

the elbow drop does it ... it really does
1st imagine your cue is part of your ENTIRE arm... not just your forearm!!!
extend your arm out straight holding your cue in your wrist like your pointing at someone with it
that is full extension --> notice the shoulder is now flexed and the elbow is fully extended and the wrist is bent downwards.
(thats max extension of 3 feet vs. 4 inches in pendulum stroke)
Okay okay .... neither professionals nor any pool player can pull a 3' follow through... the cue ball will leave way before then. but how about a 10" or 12" follow through - No Problem

tricks to learning elbow drop
1. get into pendulum style
2. aim
3. slightly raise your upper body ... let your arm have clearance to swing thru underneath
4. TIMING... TIMING... TIMING
the cue must accelerate thru the cue ball and continue acceleration til desired follow thru
5. so whats the timing?
- backswing
- get back to neutral (this is where your elbow is at 90 degrees and the cue is about to make contact with the cueball)
- before neutral your shoulder starts initiating movement
- Lock elbow at 90 degrees when shoulder is in movement.... the elbow should never bend past 90 degrees because that would mean the cueball will be hit and long gone before the stroke is done

- now initiate front swing with both the shoulder continue to flex and the elbow now extending and straightening out
- WHAT ABOUT THE WRIST... the wrist is to keep the cue level and in line ... you really dont need a wrist to generate the power ... therefore dont snap it like you would with a pendulum. just let it bend with the cue to keep the cue straight.

the whole stroke is alot slower in timing then you think... dont rush be patient ...
last tip*** get a mop... pretend your mopping some hardwood and just learn how to extend that elbow
So the knowledge bomb has been dropped.
Give me the 7 out and we'll call it even
sam

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spider, sorry I checked. It wasn't you that made the comment about Allison Fisher.

I would never knock Allison. She is the best woman to EVER play the game. On top of that, I personally watched her trounce lots of top guys in the IPT. She can beat anyone in a race to 10 if she's playing well. I remember sweating some of her matches, drinking some coffee.... just thinking to myself, "Shit, this chick don't miss...." I'm her #1 fan

 

[pooltchr]

Scott. You made an excellent point there. There are a lot of players who are looking to improve their game, or have hit that probverbial plateau and want to move forward. That is what I hear most frequently when someone contacts me about lessons. That, or they want more consistency. Those are the players we can help. There is also a group who don't need our services. They already have consistency, and are seeing continuous improvement in their game, or they are already as good as they need to be. They don't need to change anything. Oh, yeah, there is also the pro who is looking for every little edge they can get who will want to get that video analysis done on a regular basis.
We can not, and will not be, all things to all people. Spend your energy with the ones who seek you out...they are the ones who will benefit most from what you have to offer.
Steve