More elbow dropping nonsense

dr_dave said:
This is not correct. Keeping the cue tip moving in a straight line requires a "piston stroke," not a pendulum stroke. A piston stroke requires coordinated (constantly changing amounts of) elbow and shoulder motion. This is much more difficult to achieve than an elbow-only pendulum motion, where the grip hand moves in an arc, which causes the tip to move up at during the back stroke and down during the follow through (assuming the cue isn't being lifted off the bridge with a "death grip").

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

See, I think this is opinion / conjecture. It's not always easier. The piston/drop motion is a natural motion that takes less effort. If it were easier, everybody would be doin' it. The pool world isn't stuffed tight with players doing things the hard way.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
See, I think this is opinion / conjecture. It's not always easier. The piston/drop motion is a natural motion that takes less effort.
Click to expand...
Good points. I've edited my sentence to make it less strong. For many people, the coordinated elbow and shoulder motion required by an elbow-drop-before-CB-contact stroke (e.g., a piston stroke) can be more difficult to control and be consistent. And as you point out, a pendulum stroke might not feel natural for many people.

When I first learned how to play pool, the elbow-drop stroke seemed like the natural way to stroke, and that's what I did for many years (although, I wasn't much of a player, and I'm still not as good as you ... yet). However, I had poor consistency with draw shots and I would sometimes miscue and "bang the rail" on follow shots, both due to elbow drop that was sometimes too early and/or too much. When I switched to a pendulum stroke, it didn't feel natural at first (and still doesn't sometimes, especially on follow shots), but I am much more consistent and hit much better draw and follow shots now. I do have to constantly remind myself to not drop the elbow on certain shots, but when I do the results are usually better.

This whole last paragraph was just an anecdote about my own personal experience. I am not implying that it will apply to other people. I am just thankful that I found the pendulum stroke for my game. I think I am much better now with it than I could have been without it ... but we'll never really know, will we?

Regards,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I could prob post 50 more pages in this thread of pros who drop. We're not saying nobody shoots with a pinned elbow.

I'm still looking for a list of "pro tour" players who shoot with a pinned elbow. I'd be shocked to see more than 3, really. That's how unbalanced it is.
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting to see a list of the Pro Tour players who went to Scott Lee and company and wanted to learn how to get rid of the Elbow Drop.

Someone else requested that information but I may have missed Scott posting it. (I'm guessing those names will be confidential.) :wink:

JoeyA
 
no disagreement here

Neil,

Your posts are excellent and you are always one of the posters whose messages I read carefully.

If people set up properly and accept that the tip travel will not be level most of the issues with the pendulum would go away. The largest flaws with the pure pendulum are that the backstroke and bridge lengths are somewhat restricted but these are minor quibbles; the vast majority of time these aren't issues.

I'm not sure why but it seems that most people object to the tip moving up and down noticeably. When you accept that this will happen on many shots and ignore it then the compensations to keep the tip moving in a level path aren't needed. There is some minor compensation in the wrist or grip regardless because of angles but these are far easier to deal with.

Hu






Neil said:
Good post , Hu. I think the problem is that many that try the pendulum stroke don't set up correctly. Then, they have to make compensations that tend to screw the shot up. For it to work, you have to start with your tip very near the cb, and your forearm perpendicular to the cue. Then, one way to test if you are on the right line is to raise your bridge hand so you actually stroke over the cb without touching it. Then, just let your hand drop with no muscle control, just freefall. See if it goes where you want it to. That step, (which you don't do every time) is often left out, and people are not on the right line. When on the right line, you just contract the bicep, and it controls your speed.

As far as a purely level stroke looking so good compared to a pendulum stroke, I disagree, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In any case, I will take function over beauty any day. And, no matter how tired I may be, the repeatability of the pendulum stroke has saved me many a time.
Click to expand...
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I could prob post 50 more pages in this thread of pros who drop. We're not saying nobody shoots with a pinned elbow.

I'm still looking for a list of "pro tour" players who shoot with a pinned elbow. I'd be shocked to see more than 3, really. That's how unbalanced it is.
Click to expand...
Earlier in the thread, I think you were implying that practically no pros drop their elbow before CB contact. When you say "pros who drop" now, are you still referring to pros who drop only after CB contact (e.g., a "J" stroke with "pinned-elbow" pendulum motion on backstroke and forward stroke into the ball; and then piston stroke, with elbow drop, after CB contact)? I think (but I'm not sure) many pros might actually drop before CB contact.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Earlier in the thread, I think you were implying that practically no pros drop their elbow before CB contact. When you say "pros who drop" now, are you still referring to pros who drop only after CB contact (e.g., a "J" stroke with "pinned-elbow" pendulum motion on backstroke and forward stroke into the ball; and then piston stroke, with elbow drop, after CB contact)? I think (but I'm not sure) many pros might actually drop before CB contact.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

To make this simple, can't we just say they either drop or they don't? The whole before/after contact variable is great and something to be looked at, but we haven't really even established this first simple part yet.

KMRUNOUT
 
unfortunately not

KMRUNOUT said:
To make this simple, can't we just say they either drop or they don't? The whole before/after contact variable is great and something to be looked at, but we haven't really even established this first simple part yet.

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

Debating rather somebody drops the elbow or not after the cue ball has left the tip is a nonissue. Dropping, even a little, before the ball is hit is an issue. An inch is huge.

Hu
 
Bring Patrick Johnson back!

Patrick would be great in this thread. We need some cacklelackal.

Bring Patrick back!

JoeyA
 
KMRUNOUT said:
To make this simple, can't we just say they either drop or they don't? The whole before/after contact variable is great and something to be looked at, but we haven't really even established this first simple part yet.
Click to expand...
I think it is important to distinguish when a person drops their elbow. If they don't drop their elbow until after CB contact, it really doesn't matter how much the elbow is dropped, because the CB is already gone. Some people will drop it more on firmer shots; but again, the amount is not important. These people basically have a "pendulum stroke" with a modified follow-through (e.g., a "J" stroke ... "pendulum" before contact, and "piston" after contact). If these people are consistent with the timing of the elbow drop, they can have the benefits of both worlds ... pendulum-stroke tip-contact-point accuracy with a smoother follow-through on firmer shots. I think if people were more clear on when the elbow drops, there would be a lot more agreement in this thread. Many of the video examples show a pendulum stroke into the CB and then different amounts of elbow drop after CB contact. To me, it isn't important if the elbow drops after CB contact, or if the elbow drops different amounts after CB contact. What's important is when the elbow drops, and if the drop occurs consistently before or after CB contact, and/or if the timing changes with shot speed.

Regards,
Dave
 
Last edited:
Good point, Dave. You can do back flips and handstands after the CB leaves the tip, and it won't change the shot one single bit.

Steve
 
dr_dave said:
I think it is important to distinguish when a person drops their elbow. If they don't drop their elbow until after CB contact, it really doesn't matter how much the elbow is dropped, because the CB is already gone. Some people will drop it more on firmer shots; but again, the amount is not important. These people basically have a "pendulum stroke" with a modified follow through (e.g., a "J" stroke ... "pendulum" before contact, and "piston" after contact). If these people are consistent with the timing of the elbow drop, they can have the benefits of both worlds ... pendulum-stroke tip-contact-point accuracy with a smoother follow through on firmer shots. I think if people were more clear on when the elbow drops, there would be a lot more agreement in this thread. Many of the video examples show a pendulum stroke into the CB and then different amounts of elbow drop after CB contact. To me, it isn't important if the elbow drops after CB contact, or if the elbow drops different amounts after CB contact. What's important is when the elbow drops, and if the drop occurs consistently before or after CB contact, and/or if the timing changes with shot speed.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

I am not sure about all of this Dave. If the player anticipates using the forearm muscles such as the Supinator, Flexor and Abductor muscles these muscles will tighten and loosen (as needed) before contact in anticipation and thus possibly provide more cue stick guidance. The psycho-neurological literature on anticipated muscle contraction / relaxation is quite clear. The extensor Policis Brevis and related wrist muscles have to be used in a different way than the pendulum swinger uses them and there must be anticipation here as well.

I am suggesting that any person who uses a piston stroke before or after contact is using these muscles before contact. The body simply readies itself for anticipated use and thus it could be expected that there would be some effect for those who intend to use the piston swing after contact.

I am not trying to nitpick here. I am suggesting that those who use a piston swing are using additional muscles to propel the cue stick before and after contact. To be more specific they are making added use of these muscles that the pendulum swinger is not intentionally using. The additional muscles may lead to a better quality of hit in the guidance they provide.

I am attempting to work with the idea that several, many, whatever, large groups of pro players have found this piston swing to be useful and their must be some benefit or there would not be so many people using the piston approach, of whatever variety. I am of the belief that theory must accomodate to reality. :-)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top