CLOSE HITS: Do you say "Watch this, it's going to be close"?

genomachino said:
I just had this happen to me on Sat. I'm in a little tournament. I said to the guy we better get a referre. He says. I'm going to shoot it real soft so it will be easy to tell. He reaches down and aims the shot and makes a horrible hit and then reaches over to shake my hand. The match was over. he just walked away with no discussion.

Bottom line. On a close hit either way always get a ref. And not just anyone.
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Wait. Did he know that he'd just lost or was he playing off like he'd just won. Also who was the winner according to the tournament brackets?
 
arguments are bound to occur as long as long as we have rules like that for that kind of situations just like two men will beat each other up when they are left with only one women in a uninhabitated island.
There will NOT be peace on earth.
 
Is the video quality on cell phones good enuf to do an instant replay that could help?

Jeff Livingston
 
Neil said:
I have yet to have anyone try and call a hit that I felt was qualified to do so. The first indicator is that they stand right over the balls to try and see which got hit first. Good luck on that one. That shows they don't even know what to look for.

That is why I try and explain before hand what will happen, why it will happen, and how to tell if it was a good hit or not. That educates at least two other people, who now know what to look for, and esures a good call as much as it can be ensured.

The direction the balls take doesn't lie, and you can't alter a bad hit to make it look good, or vice versa.
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Neil isn't far off here. I often see referees standing in the wrong place to call a hit, especially in the amateur tourneys. We do have some good officials like Ken Shuman who work pro events.

As a rule of thumb I like to stand where I see the cue ball coming toward me on the hit. It is true (as Scott said) that most of the time you can judge a hit by the action of the object balls. But not always!

I have had players ask me not to stand in their line of sight. I tell them I will stand where I can see the hit best and stand still. I have stood right up next to a player at times. A good ref will get in the best position to call the shot. PERIOD!

It's a funny thing but after all these years, I can almost instinctively tell a good hit from a bad one. If it's bad, you know right away. If it's good you don't have that feeling like something is wrong. I don't know how to explain this but sometimes I have to trust my gut.

I worked the entire U.S. Open and I can tell you for sure I didn't miss one call. And I made dozens of them. I would guess that I miss about one out of a hundred. So I have a 1% failure rate. No one's perfect at this, just like in other sports. You just better get the obvious ones right. I have seen some unbelievably bad calls made in tournaments that affected the outcome of a match. Just like the one recently with Ga Young Kim in the Amway Cup. The ref dogged it on that one.

I called a bunch of them at DCC too. The closest one was where Hennessee was kicking two rails to hit the object ball, with another ball right next to it. He hit it fairly hard but I was in perfect position to call the hit. As soon as it hit I called "Foul". Then I hesitated a moment as I thought about the action of the balls. I said "just a minute" and after a moment I said "it was a Foul." And it was DEFINITELY! Hennessee erupted telling me I made a bad call. I tried to explain to him why it was a bad hit but he didn't want to hear it. He said I changed my mind and couldn't decide how to call it. Once again I said that I did call it right away, but gave it more thought in my mind as to how the balls reacted to confirm my first inclination. Then I said Foul for the second time. At no time did I ever say it was a good hit.

After the match he told me he would never play in one of my tournaments again. C'est la vie.
 
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close calls

I have noticed that when calling opponents over to watch a hit in a tournament or gambling session probably 80-90% of the calls go against me. When calling the tournament director over that isn't playing the majority of calls go my way. Leaves me a wee bit skeptical.

Many ref's and people in general often call hits based on the way the balls moved however when balls are very close together or near the rail often what people see most clearly are the results of secondary hits.

Most the time I would rather shoot another shot than call the person I am shooting against over to watch a hit. Too many will call it bad when it is close and I don't call anyone over unless it is close.

Hu


KoolKat9Lives said:
It's recently happened twice to me, with almost identical situations and results. Playing 10 ball I went for a carom off the OB to make the 10 ball.

Both times:

- I informed my opponents "watch the hit, it will be close"
- I made the 10
- It was too close for me to call. I thought the OB went on the proper tangent from a good hit.
- After much discussion, the calls (and the cheese) went against me. :mad:

FYI: The rule states if it's too close to call, the ruling goes in the shooter's favor.

The last time this happened to me, a respected player on an adjacent table immediately pronounced "bad hit". :confused:

I'm thinking I won't be advising my opponents that an upcoming shot will be an extremely close call. Although it seems like the noble thing to do, it only invites controversy. It's an opponent's responsibility to watch the table, right?

For the more experienced players here: to advise or not to advise?
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Marlon Manalo

There are always the cases like the one Marlon Manalo got so upset about. If he just touched the ball, if he missed it going to the rail, what was going to be most obvious was how the balls moved when they made contact after the cue ball came off the rail. Because of various things including color bloom even video can't be trusted on extremely close shots. I think he missed the ball before the rail, nobody really knows although many people think they do. When things are that close standard video can't be trusted, possibly no video can depending on lighting and colors.

Hu



jay helfert said:
Neil isn't far off here. I often see referees standing in the wrong place to call a hit, especially in the amateur tourneys. We do have some good officials like Ken Shuman who work pro events.

As a rule of thumb I like to stand where I see the cue ball coming toward me on the hit. It is true (as Scott said) that most of the time you can judge a hit by the action of the object balls. But not always!

I have had players ask me not to stand in their line of sight. I tell them I will stand where I can see the hit best and stand still. I have stood right up next to a player at times. A good ref will get in the best position to call the shot. PERIOD!

It's a funny thing but after all these years, I can almost instinctively tell a good hit from a bad one. If it's bad, you know right away. If it's good you don't have that feeling like something is wrong. I don't know how to explain this but sometimes I have to trust my gut.

I worked the entire U.S. Open and I can tell you for sure I didn't miss one call. And I made dozens of them. I would guess that I miss about one out of a hundred. So I have a 1% failure rate. No one's perfect at this, just like in other sports. You just better get the obvious ones right. I have seen some unbelievably bad calls made in tournaments that affected the outcome of a match. Just like the one recently with Ga Young Kim in the Amway Cup. The ref dogged it on that one.

I called a bunch of them at DCC too. The closest one was where Hennessee was kicking two rails to hit the object ball, with another ball right next to it. He hit it fairly hard but I was in perfect position to call the hit. As soon as it hit I called "Foul". Then I hesitated a moment as I thought about the action of the balls. I said "just a minute" and after a moment I said "it was a Foul." And it was DEFINITELY! Hennessee erupted telling me I made a bad call. I tried to explain to him why it was a bad hit but he didn't want to hear it. He said I changed my mind and couldn't decide how to call it. Once again I said that I did call it right away, but gave it more thought in my mind as to how the balls reacted to confirm my first inclination. Then I said Foul for the second time. At no time did I ever say it was a good hit.

After the match he told me he would never play in one of my tournaments again. C'est la vie.
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I lost , he won smooth move..............

Luxury said:
Wait. Did he know that he'd just lost or was he playing off like he'd just won. Also who was the winner according to the tournament brackets?
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I really don't know if he knew how bad he hit it. It was kind of close but to me watching on the side it was pretty obvious.

Always get e ref...................in a tournament.......
 
Another shot I got someone to call the hit. The guy jacked up and the balls were about 1/4 inch apart and he's shooting straight on. The guy on the next table volunteered to make the call.

When he shot the shot you could hear the double hit. The cue ball went forward abuot 4 inches but had draw on it so after going 4 inches forward started to draw and went to the side. Obvious bad hit. Doulble hit. You could hear it for sure. The guy calling it kind of paused because he was trying to figure it out and then looked up and said good hit.

Get a ref. Not just anyone???????????????????????????
 
Bob Jewett and I have some good videos on this topic here:

I wish every league player were required to watch these videos. Many (if not most) league players don't know what to look for. If everybody knew what to watch and how to interpret what they see, there would probably be fewer disagreements. But that's what makes league night so fun ... all of the disagreements, right? :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
 
IMHO, in friendly games for no cash or a tiny wager, when it's their shot I always say "it's your shot, I trust your call".....it's rare that I ever see a bad call....rare...if the hit is so so close that both of us are a little bit baffled, we usually agree that the tie goes to the shooter and move on...

In tournaments or games for real cash (I rarely if every play for real cash :grin-square:), it's best to get a knowledgeable third party/ref.....whatever they say, I respect and let it go, even if I think they made a bad call ;)
 
It seems it's been stated by a few people already. You don't tell if it's a good hit by trying to see what hits what first..

You tell by how the balls go after. That simple.
 
I understand what you are saying about close hits but end of the day, you better be careful on who you get to watch a hit. Don't just get anyone, get someone smart enough to make the call correctly, if you do that you will minimize the problem.

I have a much worse problem that annoys the holy hell out of me. What do you do when it's a close hit, or you know the person will foul for sure doing what they are trying, like almost guaranteed double hit.

Well what happens if they just shoot the shot before you can get a ref or someone to watch it? What do you do if they blast it at 100 mph and its near impossible to tell? I find these situations happen more and are much harder to deal with without the butt end of your cue!
 
This reminds me of the tough call that went against Bustamante versus Daryl Peach in the WPC two or three years ago. I think the refs got the call right (calling a foul against Bustamante) but was that ever a close call in a tense situation!
 
shinobi said:
This reminds me of the tough call that went against Bustamante versus Daryl Peach in the WPC two or three years ago. I think the refs got the call right (calling a foul against Bustamante) but was that ever a close call in a tense situation!
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A very good ref who found himself out of position to make the call. He wasn't quite sure until we saw the replay on the nearby TV monitor. Then it was clear that Bustie hit the nine ball first and it was a foul.
 
When I'm playing and there is a close hit coming I don't tend to say anything. It's not my responsibility to help him pay attention to the match, it's his. What I will do is look at my opponent and give him plenty of time to decide if he wants a call and I won't begrudge him that time, or his right to call someone to watch the hit if he wants to.


As a rule of thumb I like to stand where I see the cue ball coming toward me on the hit. It is true (as Scott said) that most of the time you can judge a hit by the action of the object balls. But not always!

I have had players ask me not to stand in their line of sight. I tell them I will stand where I can see the hit best and stand still. I have stood right up next to a player at times. A good ref will get in the best position to call the shot. PERIOD!
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Jay, I respect your abilities, but this is not a good viewpoint. A person of your level is going to call most of the shots by ear or by instinct anyways, so being in an overly obtrusive position is pointless. Contrary to popular belief, when you're reffing a shot you don't have to be in the best position, you just have to be in one that is good enough to see the shot clearly. Your ears and your knowledge of pool will do the rest.
 
jay helfert said:
A very good ref who found himself out of position to make the call. He wasn't quite sure until we saw the replay on the nearby TV monitor. Then it was clear that Bustie hit the nine ball first and it was a foul.
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This shot was a clear foul and everyone knew it (even Bustey, I'm certain). I'm not even sure how it became so controversial.
 
Hank said:
What is the split hit rule?I never heard of it.THANKs
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Here is the Split Hit Rule. It's part of the World Standardized Rules.

There are several situations in which it is not possible to determine which ball was struck first. The videos that Dr. Dave pointed out above show several of them. Here is an easy one you can set up as a demo. Put the cue ball on the foot spot. Place two balls touching the cue ball each directly in line with a foot pocket. Now move the cue ball straight up the table. If you shoot the cue ball back to the foot spot, you can make both balls. They will go into the pockets simultaneously and the cue ball will stop dead.

A much harder one is like this: Freeze two object balls together. Put the cue ball directly out to the side, so that if you shoot directly at where the two balls touch, the cue ball will hit them simultaneously. If you do hit them simultaneously, the cue ball will come straight back, and not off to one side or the other. I've seen it come straight back.
 
Here are the videos again if people want to check them out:

Bob Jewett said:
Here is the Split Hit Rule. It's part of the World Standardized Rules.

There are several situations in which it is not possible to determine which ball was struck first. The videos that Dr. Dave pointed out above show several of them. Here is an easy one you can set up as a demo. Put the cue ball on the foot spot. Place two balls touching the cue ball each directly in line with a foot pocket. Now move the cue ball straight up the table. If you shoot the cue ball back to the foot spot, you can make both balls. They will go into the pockets simultaneously and the cue ball will stop dead.

A much harder one is like this: Freeze two object balls together. Put the cue ball directly out to the side, so that if you shoot directly at where the two balls touch, the cue ball will hit them simultaneously. If you do hit them simultaneously, the cue ball will come straight back, and not off to one side or the other. I've seen it come straight back.
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