Joint Pin..No Glue ??!!

Russell Cues

Russell Cues

Maverick Cue Builder
Silver Member
Ok, I have completed many repairs on many cues of various makers and manufacturers but I have never seen anything quite as pathetic as this. I received a cue from a regular customer with a cue from a well known maker ( name withheld ), and the problem he had was that while unscrewing the cue the joint pin just turned right out of the butt section !! Upon inspection the joint pin had absolutely no glue on it at all, I mean nothing. I did the repair for him and was able to use the same pin as the threads were as clean as a whistle. There were no threads to speak of down in the butt section, so the pin was in effect grabbing nothing, there was the faintest hint of epoxy, but just barely.

How can anyone with a name and reputation like this particular cue maker let there quality and standards drop this low? Quality control is paramount, as what other newer cue's have a loose joint pin or other major issues from this maker ?

Ok now my question, Im done ranting, How many of you other cue makers or repairmen have seen what used to be a quality cue suddenly become a piece of junk when the maker went into "production" and just stammped out cues ?
 
Cue makers like everyone else are human and susceptible to error. Do you honestly think the builder did this on purpose? Why not just fix it and move on?
Just saying..........
 
Russell Cues said:
... How can anyone with a name and reputation like this particular cue maker let there quality and standards drop this low?
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Perhaps just a "senior moment." No harm done; I'm sure the original cue maker would have fixed it quickly (and with some embarrassment).
 
Why would you wind up repairing the cue instead of the maker? Maybe someone else has worked on the cue as well, do you know? You take a bunch of cheap shots at the maker but did you speak to him directly about the cue, or did you just take the opportunity to bash him before you had the facts?
 
Russell Cues said:
Ok, I have completed many repairs on many cues of various makers and manufacturers but I have never seen anything quite as pathetic as this. I received a cue from a regular customer with a cue from a well known maker ( name withheld ), and the problem he had was that while unscrewing the cue the joint pin just turned right out of the butt section !! Upon inspection the joint pin had absolutely no glue on it at all, I mean nothing. I did the repair for him and was able to use the same pin as the threads were as clean as a whistle. There were no threads to speak of down in the butt section, so the pin was in effect grabbing nothing, there was the faintest hint of epoxy, but just barely.

How can anyone with a name and reputation like this particular cue maker let there quality and standards drop this low? Quality control is paramount, as what other newer cue's have a loose joint pin or other major issues from this maker ?

Ok now my question, Im done ranting, How many of you other cue makers or repairmen have seen what used to be a quality cue suddenly become a piece of junk when the maker went into "production" and just stammped out cues ?
Click to expand...



Well like with everything else, known cue makers make mistakes just like unknown cue makers do, just not as many. So I don't get what your saying, are you saying that this is the normal procedure for this cue maker? If not why would you say anything at all?

I don't get it, help me understand your thought's on this!!!
 
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manwon said:
Well like with everything else, known cue makers make mistakes just like unknown cue makers do, just not as many. So I don't get what your saying, are you saying that this is the normal procedure for this cue maker? If not why would you say anything at all?

I don't get it, help me understand your thought's on this!!!
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Maybe it wasn't a mistake. I've been told by more than one cue maker that Gus Szamboti never glued his pins into his joints and supposedly that is one of the clues to look for when ascertaining if the cue is a Szamboti or not. I know there was no trace of any glue on any of the Szamboti's that I've worked on.

Dick
 
Could be someone "repaired" it before you.
Could be the cuemaker got lazy or hired people to do his work for him.
First you say the threads were clean, then you say there were no threads?
Which is it?
 
manwon said:
Well like with everything else, known cue makers make mistakes just like unknown cue makers do, just not as many. So I don't get what your saying, are you saying that this is the normal procedure for this cue maker? If not why would you say anything at all?

I don't get it, help me understand your thought's on this!!!
Click to expand...

This cue maker went from makeing cues " by hand" to haveing them stamped out on a cnc and now you can buy one for far less than a few years ago. It just seems that what once was a solid well made cue has now become a "thrown together" cue, it saddens me as I have owned one of theses cues, before I started making cues myself.

I guess my disdane is that money has now out weighed quality, pride and craftmanship. Sad.

When I said the threads were clean, I mean there was no glue whatsoever on the joint pin and only the faintest trace on the hole itself. The cue im speaking about is maybe a year or two old and Im pretty sure the pin wasnt worked on before now. I never knew a szamboti didnt use glue ! If you tapped the hole tight...tight you could do that. I guess I'm just too italian and my blood runs hotter that most LOL. The hole in the cue butt had some groves in there but it wouldnt grip the pin and this was before I did the repair.
 
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Russell Cues said:
This cue maker went from makeing cues " by hand" to haveing them stamped out on a cnc and now you can buy one for far less than a few years ago. It just seems that what once was a solid well made cue has now become a "thrown together" cue, it saddens me as I have owned one of theses cues, before I started making cues myself.
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Where can I get a CNC that stamps out cues? I've never heard of anyone using CNC for anything beside inlays.
Also, how does one go about making a cue "by hand"? Hand tools only? Must be a bytch to square up a joint face, or install a pin. :grin:
 
as for me, cuemakers are also humans, subject for errors. Everybody wants to do their best. but in the situations you encountered, try first to talked to the original cuemaker. We should also listen the story on the other side. I'm pretty sure he has an explanation on this. Or who knows, before it came to your hands, other cuemakers may also worked on it. We did not know the real story on that cue.:)
 
Sheldon said:
Where can I get a CNC that stamps out cues? I've never heard of anyone using CNC for anything beside inlays.
Also, how does one go about making a cue "by hand"? Hand tools only? Must be a bytch to square up a joint face, or install a pin. :grin:
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Sheldon, are you a drinker?

It's common knowledge that more than just inlays are done using CNC. Different tapers, both shaft & handle, points, ring-billets and yes, even installing joint pins if one is so inclined.

The guy's just making a general statement. Why you wanna beat `em up?
 
I have worked on several ebay cues from a certain florida builder. I have seen everything from butt sleeves and a joint done with no glue from production cues. So everyday you might just get to see something you never did before and learn something in the process. Repairs are just that but in a way it is another art of its own.
 
I like the cnc stamping part. Makes me think of car parts or bits for AK47's.
But cnc machines have advanced so much with software in the last 6 years,that now there is things made that can only be done with cnc.
Even things that used to be chizeled out by hand a few years ago, can now be done with cnc controlled machines.
Micro pulse chizels work amazingly well is just 1 example.
At the moment cnc is not cost effective for a 1 off simple part just yet. But it is getting alot better.
 
KJ Cues said:
Sheldon, are you a drinker?
It's common knowledge that more than just inlays are done using CNC. Different tapers, both shaft & handle, points, ring-billets and yes, even installing joint pins if one is so inclined.
The guy's just making a general statement. Why you wanna beat `em up?
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I just find it amusing when people try to make CNC sound like it's easy or cheating somehow. Reminds me of a cuemaker that actually had posted on his website that you could put a cue in a CNC, go get a cup of coffe, and come back when it was done. :grin-square: Another cuemker even dedicated a whole page to the statement.... http://www.arnotq.com/pages/630/630.html
Unless you're running a full on factory, like McDermott, for the average cuemaker, (beyond inlays) CNC just makes things more precise and repeatable. It doesn't make it easier, or even that much faster.
It CERTAINLY doesn't glue or not glue a joint pin. :D

And no, I don't drink. Or smoke. Or eat junk food. I'm insanely healthy. Thanks for asking though!
 
Sheldon said:
I just find it amusing when people try to make CNC sound like it's easy or cheating somehow. Reminds me of a cuemaker that actually had posted on his website that you could put a cue in a CNC, go get a cup of coffe, and come back when it was done. :grin-square: Another cuemker even dedicated a whole page to the statement.... http://www.arnotq.com/pages/630/630.html
Unless you're running a full on factory, like McDermott, for the average cuemaker, (beyond inlays) CNC just makes things more precise and repeatable. It doesn't make it easier, or even that much faster.
It CERTAINLY doesn't glue or not glue a joint pin. :D

And no, I don't drink. Or smoke. Or eat junk food. I'm insanely healthy. Thanks for asking though!
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Well just to clarify a little the cue maker Im speaking of has a full on factory set up and is putting cues out as fast as they can. The maker used to turn out a quality product but now the quality has fallen off the map ! And with the right programing, and blanks ready to go, you can put one in a cnc and hit the button and BAM all the pockets are cut. Now if you are a smart cookie and had the same machine cut out the parts too, then its a matter is assembly. :D
 
Were there threads tapped into the hole? If not, It could have been a pressed in installation. In the DVD's from Joe, he shows how to do that. I would not use that method> if the wood shrinks slightly, out pops the pin, very similar to what happened here. Just a thought.
Dave
 
I have built cues without glued in joint pins. I have built cues that aquired issues for whatever reasons. I have ideas I want to try & I try them, but how do I know if it's good unless I send some cues out to be put to the test? More yet, how do I know if what I do is any good unless people tell me how it's working? I don't. As they say, no news is good news. So this builder may have been trying something different & he'll not hear a word, meaning it must have worked just fine. He'll be the last to know that he was bashed & rideculed on an online forum in front of the world, by another builder whom he likely doesn't know or has even heard of. There was a word in the first couple of lines of this thread that sums up the situation, "pathetic".

The golden rule rules us all and karma is a ***** to those who foul. Don't think for a minute your cues will never have an issue. Don't think for a minute your ideas sometimes turn out to be bad ones. How will you want to be dealt with as it happens? Will you want somebody to tell you that there was a problem so you can fix it & learn from it? Or would you want somebody to throw you under the public bus for the world to see you get trampled? "Pathetic" says a lot more than you intended for it to say. Only one thing has been revealed in this thread, and it's not the quality of a cuemaker's work.
 
Russell Cues said:
This cue maker went from makeing cues " by hand" to haveing them stamped out on a cnc and now you can buy one for far less than a few years ago. It just seems that what once was a solid well made cue has now become a "thrown together" cue, it saddens me as I have owned one of theses cues, before I started making cues myself.

I guess my disdane is that money has now out weighed quality, pride and craftmanship. Sad.

When I said the threads were clean, I mean there was no glue whatsoever on the joint pin and only the faintest trace on the hole itself. The cue im speaking about is maybe a year or two old and Im pretty sure the pin wasnt worked on before now. I never knew a szamboti didnt use glue ! If you tapped the hole tight...tight you could do that. I guess I'm just too italian and my blood runs hotter that most LOL. The hole in the cue butt had some groves in there but it wouldnt grip the pin and this was before I did the repair.
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Thanks for the private PM, I completely understand your point, but like I said when a cue maker go's production some quality will be lost, however, I am certain that it is not intentional.

Have great day.
 
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