CTE aiming.
- Thread starter Geometry
- Start date
Center-to-edge?
Which center to which edge? Maybe there are two center to edges? Maybe one isn't good enough mathematically? Which center-to-edge does what? Why is each important? Where does the shot circle come in? How do you know how to align your cue to get to the proper center based on the above?
That should keep these geometry "wizards" busy until Vegas. Good luck guys.
I can't talk crap, actually. It took me over a year of non-stop work to figure it out on my own.
I just spend some time with Hal and we had this very discussion. He gives people enough to start out:
"Sight center to edge, move your bridge to the side and pivot back to center. Thick cuts you pivot this way....thin cuts you pivot that way."
It took him YEARS to come up with the proof and he didn't want to just GIVE it to whoever (i.e. spoon feed Dr. Dave) Only the "serious" player will grind on it until they get it. This is what separates the forum spoon-feeder from someone who wants the secret to pool. Players who use the above sentence long enough will eventually see "it" over time.
Stan and I learned CTE from Hal roughly the same time. I was embarrassed to tell Stan it took me a SOLID 6-months to "see" it. Refreshingly, Stan told me the same thing.
I now know why Hal always used the term "we" in his posts: "We don't do this..." and "We only do that..."
There are those who have the answer and those who don't. Those who see a MILLION shots on the table and those who see only TWO.
My recent visit with Hal was really emotional for me. His health is failing. Telling someone "thank you" for making me who I am on the pool table nearly brought tears to my eyes. Hal was surprised because he didn't "give it to me," yet, I had it. I guess many don't.
What strikes me as funny are all of those people who visited him and had conversations with him over the phone who think "they have it." He never gave "it" to anyone (me included). It's nothing you can pick-up with a camcorder or see while standing beside someone.
I asked him if I should make a detailed post on here so everyone could have it. He asked how long it took me to get it and I said a LONG time. He then replied, "Well... why WOULD you then?"
Me:
"Because you should be in the hall of fame for what you came up with. It's the most profound discovery in all of pool."
Hal:
"I don't want that--- I don't want any of that. I just don't care."
Me:
"I do."
... and we left it at that. On the drive home, I think I finally understood what he meant. It's only important for him that people who love pool enough to find the answer know how it works. That's why I won't post everything, but I want everyone to know.
The answer is in front of everyone. Check out my blog. I did more than 1/2 the work for everyone. I keep jumping into these threads because I want everyone to know, but I promised him I'd never post it. It makes me emotional to read Dr. Dave, Mike Page, and Bob Jewett's posts. I want to just come out and say _____ DUHHHH but I can't.
The sad thing is the average IQ of those guys is prob 50 points above mine and I figured it out. No matter what happens to Hal from here, I love and respect him enough to never disclose the full monty without forcing the person to do some digging on their own. If they quit, they didn't wanna know it bad enough. If they try like hell and won't quit and can't get there-- that's a different story.
I didn't quit.
P.S. The "magic" is only partially in the pivot. There's another element you're missing.
Which center to which edge? Maybe there are two center to edges? Maybe one isn't good enough mathematically? Which center-to-edge does what? Why is each important? Where does the shot circle come in? How do you know how to align your cue to get to the proper center based on the above?
That should keep these geometry "wizards" busy until Vegas. Good luck guys.
I can't talk crap, actually. It took me over a year of non-stop work to figure it out on my own.
I just spend some time with Hal and we had this very discussion. He gives people enough to start out:
"Sight center to edge, move your bridge to the side and pivot back to center. Thick cuts you pivot this way....thin cuts you pivot that way."
It took him YEARS to come up with the proof and he didn't want to just GIVE it to whoever (i.e. spoon feed Dr. Dave) Only the "serious" player will grind on it until they get it. This is what separates the forum spoon-feeder from someone who wants the secret to pool. Players who use the above sentence long enough will eventually see "it" over time.
Stan and I learned CTE from Hal roughly the same time. I was embarrassed to tell Stan it took me a SOLID 6-months to "see" it. Refreshingly, Stan told me the same thing.
I now know why Hal always used the term "we" in his posts: "We don't do this..." and "We only do that..."
There are those who have the answer and those who don't. Those who see a MILLION shots on the table and those who see only TWO.
My recent visit with Hal was really emotional for me. His health is failing. Telling someone "thank you" for making me who I am on the pool table nearly brought tears to my eyes. Hal was surprised because he didn't "give it to me," yet, I had it. I guess many don't.
What strikes me as funny are all of those people who visited him and had conversations with him over the phone who think "they have it." He never gave "it" to anyone (me included). It's nothing you can pick-up with a camcorder or see while standing beside someone.
I asked him if I should make a detailed post on here so everyone could have it. He asked how long it took me to get it and I said a LONG time. He then replied, "Well... why WOULD you then?"
Me:
"Because you should be in the hall of fame for what you came up with. It's the most profound discovery in all of pool."
Hal:
"I don't want that--- I don't want any of that. I just don't care."
Me:
"I do."
... and we left it at that. On the drive home, I think I finally understood what he meant. It's only important for him that people who love pool enough to find the answer know how it works. That's why I won't post everything, but I want everyone to know.
The answer is in front of everyone. Check out my blog. I did more than 1/2 the work for everyone. I keep jumping into these threads because I want everyone to know, but I promised him I'd never post it. It makes me emotional to read Dr. Dave, Mike Page, and Bob Jewett's posts. I want to just come out and say _____ DUHHHH but I can't.
The sad thing is the average IQ of those guys is prob 50 points above mine and I figured it out. No matter what happens to Hal from here, I love and respect him enough to never disclose the full monty without forcing the person to do some digging on their own. If they quit, they didn't wanna know it bad enough. If they try like hell and won't quit and can't get there-- that's a different story.
I didn't quit.
P.S. The "magic" is only partially in the pivot. There's another element you're missing.
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Hic, giggle Which one's got the Tony? Maybe Tony's a guy.
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This is one weird thread, so I'll share this whimsical story...
My daughter just fell in love with Star Wars. Yes, my 4 year old daughter is a geek, I guess. Why do I bring that up? Because all this talk of whether you know "it" or not reminds me of those that have the "force" and those that do not.
"it" is the "most profound discovery in all of pool", yet it should not be shared with everyone...only those that love the game enough to find it on their own. Wait, what?!?!?
FWIW, the "it" is strong in this one.
If the "force" allows you to topple the greatest evil in the universe, does "it" allow you to topple the greatest talent on the table?
My daughter just fell in love with Star Wars. Yes, my 4 year old daughter is a geek, I guess. Why do I bring that up? Because all this talk of whether you know "it" or not reminds me of those that have the "force" and those that do not.
"it" is the "most profound discovery in all of pool", yet it should not be shared with everyone...only those that love the game enough to find it on their own. Wait, what?!?!?
FWIW, the "it" is strong in this one.
If the "force" allows you to topple the greatest evil in the universe, does "it" allow you to topple the greatest talent on the table?
And the other element has already been mentioned
Great post Spider. I had called Hal a few years ago, spent 8 hrs on the phone with him LOL. We talked about many things, one being CTE. He gave me just enough to let me know there was something there, but held back enough to make me keep searching.
I quit playing for a few years, but when I decided to come back I also decided to continue my research. After working with Stan and continuing with my own research am I just now really starting to understand
A video link was posted not long ago with someone using a CTE based system. Those that understand it would notice, those that dont would never pick up on it.
Hope your doing well Spider!
Woody
I was honestly hoping this post (see below) would lead to some useful discussion and information, but I guess I was being unrealistically dreamy. :sorry:
Still hoping for more "clarity,"
Dave
previous post from dr_dave:
Are you saying it doesn't matter how much you need to cut the ball?
Here's one of the diagrams from my November '08 article:
The CB-to-OB distance and alignment are the exact same for every shot in this diagram, and for every possible shot between all of these shots. Yet, the pocket is in a different position (relative to the balls) for each shot. How can the pocket location, and the necessary amount of cut, not matter?
If you line up and pivot the exact same way on all of these shots, most of them will miss the pocket. Even shot "D," which is very close to shot "A," won't go if you use the same alignment and pivot as with shot "A!" (BTW, for shot "D" assume the CB is the still the same distance away from the OB as in shot "A").
I know we have looked at this diagram, or diagrams like it, in many past debates, and we got nowhere. I honestly hope this time might be different.
It appears that in that diagram you correlate the distance between CB and OB to mean you pivot the same way. It's not the distance between the balls that matters as much as it is the angle to the pocket that designates which way, if at all you pivot.
Not sure if I got this right since I have never tried CTE.....I just watched the video and looked at the diagram.
For once I have a good deal of time to play this weekend so I will try this old fangled aiming technology. If I can understand it just from a video (or at least I think I do) it is more than worth a try.
*edit* Someone in the know tell me if my post is correct.....I will check while I am grinding out a shift tonight. If this aiming system works for me it seems like it could set up a pretty good rhythm while playing.
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If a system like CTE is impossible to describe or diagram - and takes a long time and a lot of work before someone finally gets "it" - then where is its value to novice and intermediate players? Why should 99% of all players even care to invest that much time and effort (and sometimes money) into a "system" whose only promise is that it will help them to shoot balls into pockets more consistently? And being that pool is not most people's way of making a living; should we even care which aiming system they choose to use?
Roger
Roger
Dave,
Whenever one these threads teeters on the brink of civility and mutual respect, you're always there to insure that the safety margin is maintained. Yes, I haven't been without sin myself, but it seems to be a persistent habit with you.
One thing you might learn from Dr. Dave (and others), CTE aside, is how to post without constantly trying to demean. It makes it harder for the rest of us "weaker characters" to resist returning the favor. He, on the other hand, was under pretty severe attack from the moment he showed up on the forums years ago ("why's a professor trying to teach pool?"). Instead of taking his marbles back home, he's consistently produced grade-A material for the rest of us, much of it freely available, and without firing back. And as you'd expect from a professor, it hasn't been cloaked in all the obscurantist bull-dingy that seems to forever accompany yours.
A while back you stated that you were seriously trying to prove CTE, in the mathematical or graphical sense, but got hung up with something like rotating a line, or whatever. Now we learn that you had proven it (in your mind, at least) years ago. Maybe you should get that story straight, first.
I know you're committed to keeping Hal's secrets from the lascivious eyes of us forum voyeurs, while at the same time seeing to it that he's chiseled into Mt. Rushmore. That must be very frustrating. But it's not Dr. Dave's fault, or anyone else's.
Jim
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Something I don't get, and which always has bothered me, is the mentality that giving people simple, clear directions is equated with spoonfeeding, like they're lazy or babies to expect such a thing.
You're a bright guy spider and I like your posts, and I know you're perfectly capable of explaining things until they're crystal clear. If you don't want to teach it because you feel Hal wouldn't like it or you're robbing other CTE instructors... then don't. But don't waste your time and ours dribbling out incomplete bits of it and then scold dave for failing to decipher the riddle. I can't either, it's definitely not a case of Dave being intentionally thick. It's not for lack of trying.
And for the record it was pretty lame to imply that CTE could possibly obsolete the wealth of info in VEPS, or that Dave might intentionally avoid getting it because he has some vested interest in protecting VEPS. You basically shat all over years of hard work and an excellent pool resource to defend your pet aiming system. What the hell is wrong with you? Jal's right... you get so strident in these CTE threads and there's no call for it, especially in face of Dave's unwavering patience.
That's the whole point of the diagram. If you don't account for where the pocket is (i.e., the amount of cut you need), you won't be very successful. See the article for more info.
Regards,
Dave
Yes, I took lessons from Stan. Cte really is amazing. I wouldn't believe it either,except for seeing it upclose and personal. You'll never get the full picture on here, but person to person it's quite amazing. The players I was playing even with for years I am now beating pretty concistently. By the way Stan teaches everything, strokes, little inside secrets on how to hit certain shots, typical lesson type info, Cte-Pro ONE is pretty much a bonus, a great big bonus.
You need the pocket for thick and thin. THIN IS IN!!
Don't you teach people to pocket balls more consistently. Isn't that the goal?
And the other element has already been mentioned
Great post Spider. I had called Hal a few years ago, spent 8 hrs on the phone with him LOL. We talked about many things, one being CTE. He gave me just enough to let me know there was something there, but held back enough to make me keep searching.
I quit playing for a few years, but when I decided to come back I also decided to continue my research. After working with Stan and continuing with my own research am I just now really starting to understand
A video link was posted not long ago with someone using a CTE based system. Those that understand it would notice, those that dont would never pick up on it.
Hope your doing well Spider!
Woody
Unfortunately I fear that I'll never quite understand/see it like Spidey and yourself. Sometimes I feel that I go through the steps of CTE/Pro-One blindly. I know the procedure of CTE and Pro-One as I've had lessons with Tom and Stan ( and help from Spidey ) but I don't think I see it as clearly as you guys describe.
I've shot great pool using Pro-One in which I've barely missed in hours of pool and sometimes this can go on for weeks. Then at times I can perform the same procedure with mixed results, it becomes hit or miss? It appears I'm missing that one variable that makes it a constant result, like I just happen to stumble upon the solution (while performing the necessary steps) without really understanding it.
I know what it's like to shoot really well with CTE/Pro-One and it feels *uck$ng amazing, how could I quit searching.
By the way everyone, DJPstacked (fellow AZer) and myself won 1st in our league division and will be heading to the VNEA championships at the end of May
I had a really solid performance especially compared to last year and I owe thanks to Stan and Spidey for the help they've provided me concering my aim. CTE / Pro-One was a huge contribution to my confidence and overall performance this year!
mosconiac;
"it" is the "most profound discovery in all of pool", yet it should not be shared with everyone...only those that love the game enough to find it on their own. Wait, what?!?!?
I don't want to put words in Hal's mouth but I believe he has so much respect for the game and sees soooo many that don't, such as those who Only using their pool skills to Commit Robbery on some poor sap. Why would he want this knowledge taught to petty thieves. This forum is open to everyone in the world, registered or not.
Now that being said Hal seems to not have any problem with those he taught to pass on the information privatley. I asked. -- "I just gave it to you. Its yours to do what you want with it."
If the "force" allows you to topple the greatest evil in the universe, does "it" allow you to topple the greatest talent on the table?[/QUOTE]Maybe??
In fact I think its been secretely proven already.
Maybe I'm just nieve.
"it" is the "most profound discovery in all of pool", yet it should not be shared with everyone...only those that love the game enough to find it on their own. Wait, what?!?!?
I don't want to put words in Hal's mouth but I believe he has so much respect for the game and sees soooo many that don't, such as those who Only using their pool skills to Commit Robbery on some poor sap. Why would he want this knowledge taught to petty thieves. This forum is open to everyone in the world, registered or not.
Now that being said Hal seems to not have any problem with those he taught to pass on the information privatley. I asked. -- "I just gave it to you. Its yours to do what you want with it."
If the "force" allows you to topple the greatest evil in the universe, does "it" allow you to topple the greatest talent on the table?[/QUOTE]Maybe??
In fact I think its been secretely proven already.
Maybe I'm just nieve.
Yes, I do teach people to pocket balls more consistently, and so far I have been successful at doing so without using CTE aiming. As I alluded to in my post, my students are primarily novices and intermediates (and I prefer it that way since they are the future of this sport), and being such, I feel the need to introduce them to pool in the most simplistic and understandable ways possible. And CTE definitely does not fit that need.
But let me say this about CTE: While I do believe it may be an extremely valuable method of aiming, I think that value may only apply to certain people. As with all other aiming methods, CTE is just a way of looking at a shot and then pointing the cue stick to make the cue ball go to the desired spot.
But there are other methods for doing the same thing. One is the Ghost Ball method. Another is the Fractional Ball method. Yet another is the Wagon Wheel method, and still another is the Light Reflection method. There are more, but they are too numerous to mention. And while all these methods exist, none of them can change the laws of physics; the cue ball will always have to be struck at the right spot, with the right amount of spin (or none at all), and at the right speed, to get it to pocket the object ball and then roll on to get shape for the next shot. But as for the method of aiming chosen; that will depend on the individual. Some people will never "get" the Ghost Ball method, but they might get the Fractional Ball method. Others might not get Fractional Ball, but they may get Light Reflections. Still others may not "get" anything except CTE, while others will never "get" it. It's all in each individual's personal perception.
So, it is my belief that CTE has its place in pool, but I seriously doubt that it can automatically turn everyone into ball pocketing machines.
Roger
CTE Aiming
Roger,
I have to agree with you. In aiming methods, systems what speaks volumes to me in understanding may not say anything to you. Nice post. I think ive tried or played around with every perception of shot making there is. At some point we act as chemists mixing and matching things until we find the right mixture that seems to make it all work just for us. Then you have to wonder: Why didnt someone tell me this before!!!
Roger,
I have to agree with you. In aiming methods, systems what speaks volumes to me in understanding may not say anything to you. Nice post. I think ive tried or played around with every perception of shot making there is. At some point we act as chemists mixing and matching things until we find the right mixture that seems to make it all work just for us. Then you have to wonder: Why didnt someone tell me this before!!!