SVB's bad decision cost him dearly

[CreeDo]

My memory has him banking it short, and I think that happened because he hit it with speed and draw.

I think his reasoning was he was trying to run into the 7 and just nudge it down the rail... but he realized that to do this he would either need to hit the 6 fatter (double kiss) or use plenty of draw with a slightly thin hit. He chose draw and actually made two mistakes... hitting so hard that the 7 dropped and throwing the 6 so much that it just went straight across.

Or maybe he planned on the 7 dropping but hoped the CB would somehow carom off it and then back off the rail a foot, which is all that's needed to make the 8 as diagrammed.

This is one of the easier banks in pool BUT.. if you haven't had to play bankshape in 50 or 100 consecutive shots, I can see missing it.

 

[Aaron_S]

My memory has him banking it short, and I think that happened because he hit it with speed and draw.

Did it look to you like he could have avoided the 7 entirely? Sure did to me, but I realize we didn't have the best angle.

Aaron

 

[alstl]

I thought the shot went but it is hard to tell from the camera angle. He tried it a couple times after the match ended and missed it both times so it must have been tougher than it looked.

I disagree with call shot pool but I'm just a banger and nobody in their right mind should care what I think.

 

[Aaron_S]

I thought the shot went but it is hard to tell from the camera angle. He tried it a couple times after the match ended and missed it both times so it must have been tougher than it looked.

I disagree with call shot pool but I'm just a banger and nobody in their right mind should care what I think.

Yeah, it definitely went. It's just one of those shots that is high percentage if you cinch it, but a little tricky if you try to do something extra with the cueball. Like CreeDo said, the draw and speed added another element to the shot. I would still put that shot at 90% or better for most pro players, and I think Shane's post-match misses were more due to disgust and disappointment than the difficulty of the shot. He hit it like he thought it was a hanger, with no consideration of safety or anything; just shows that you have to always give due respect to banks (and combos) or they will make you look stupid.

Aaron

 

[AtLarge]

... if they start changing the rules, and calling kisses of balls, they might as well just play straight pool. ...

I'm not aware of any pro tournament that has required the calling of kisses. All you have to call is a ball and the pocket in which it is to be made. If that ball drops in that pocket after seven cushions and 14 collisions, it is still good.

Straight pool does not require the calling of kisses, just ball and pocket.

And the rotation games, with call shot, are still vastly different from 14.1.

 

[CreeDo]

aaron: I wish I could remember better. I think I remember analyzing it and thinking... "is he doomed to run into that 7? Or could he pound this and run the cue ball around three rails for shape on it?" I don't remember what I answered myself with

alstl: I like your posts but you always go out of your way to manually type that "but I'm just a banger who cares what I think". You having self-esteem issues or what? >_<

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

adjustment needed

Here is my best guess of what the table looked like. I can't remember where the 9 and 10 were, so I'm not even going to put them on the table. The 7-ball may have been slightly closer or slightly farther away from the cueball, but it was in that vicinity, and I'm almost positive it wasn't frozen. Nothing was tied up, nothing was preventing Shane from banking the 6 in the side, and if he did that with shape on the 7, he was out. Page 2 of the WEI table shows an approximation of his shot.

CueTable Help

I was also surprised at what Shane did here, but not because of which ball he called. I was surprised that he hit the cueball below center; he deliberately went flush into the 7-ball, and it almost looked like he was playing the 7 more than the 6. Perhaps he felt that he couldn't avoid hitting the 7, and if he was going to hit it he wanted to hit it flush. I can understand the logic, but if the 7 doesn't push the 8 over, then you're kicking or banking the 8 on your next shot. In his case, the 7 did push the 8 over a bit, but he still wouldn't have had a hanger even if he had made the 6. From the angle of the camera, which was not ideal obviously, it looked to me like he could avoid the 7 altogether and bring whitey back toward the center of the table with either high-left (3 rails) or high-right (2 rails). I just didn't see any advantage to running into the 7 if it could have been avoided.

Aaron

Aaron;

Thanks for posting a cuetable for us. I am pretty sure that the 7 ball was a good bit closer to the 6 making for a much easier billiard than this layout suggests. Also, for the sake of accuracy, I do not believe the 7 ever kissed the 8 on its way in the corner pocket.

I remember when the cueball came to rest from his previous shot I thought immediately that the 7 was a piece of cake for SVB and, alternatively, the 6 was tricky but do-able requiring lots of inside english to keep a tight line back across to the other side given the cut angle.

Scott Frost almost simultaneous to my conclusion pointed out the 7 as being a nice choice then Billy engaged him about illegally pocketed balls. I do feel good that Mr. Frost liked the 7, as well.

I'm not SVB, that's for sure, and I'd feel good about making the billiard on the 7 probably eight out of ten times.

If we are able at some point to view the actual shot footage from the match, I think some in the bank shot camp may rethink their position.

Best,
Brian kc

 

[JB Cases]

First, let me say that I wish I could use the cuetable feature so I can show the scenario for all to see. I did read the cuetable how-to sticky which directed me to the cuetable site to download their free software but when I go there, I am taken to a cuetable tutorial and faq narrated by Gail G. I could not figure out how to download and use it but please know, I tried. Maybe someone who also watched the SVB - Corteza semi-final could post the table and scenario I am referring to.

Anyway, I believe it was the hill-hill game but maybe it was the one just before hill-hill - whichever, it was the end for Shane.

Shane was on the 6 ball which laid maybe an inch to the left of the left side pocket; it wasn't frozen but was fairly close to the cushion. Just to the left of the 6, maybe three or four inches up the rail was the 7. Further up the same rail sat the 8 ball, near, but just outside the corner pocket, making for a LARGE and inviting pocket, indeed. The cue ball was in the vicinity of the opposite side pocket maybe twelve inches out toward the middle of the table.

Just as soon as the cue ball stopped rolling from the previous shot, I saw, SVB had a two way shot here: bank the 6 cross-side (maybe an 85% shot) while letting the cue ball go naturally into the 7 ball heading toward the G-I-A-N-T corner pocket that featured the insurance 8 ball sitting perfectly for the nudge on the 7 if it was needed (this probably a 98%) shot. Scott Frost even mentioned something about it then he and Billy went into some discussion over illegally pocketed (non-called) balls. I believe that if Shane wanted to he could have called just the 7 ball, contacted the six first so it's legal and he would have kept shooting with four easy balls remaining for the win.

Well, to my atonishment, Shane called the six cross-side, missed that, but as I, and I'm sure many other viewers fully expected, whitey went into the seven sending it straight down the rail right into the corner pocket.

Please tell me that I have the rules right, that as long as he hit the 6 first he could have simply called that easy seven in the corner and kept shooting, right?

So, IMHO, his decision to go for the seemingly lower percentage cross-side bank on the 6 rather than the easier billiard on the 7 into the corner cost him the chance to advance to the Championship match.

Does anyone disagree?

Again, so sorry for not being able to illustrate this with the cuetable feature. I'm sure I'll figure that out soon. What a nice resource it is.

Best,
Brian kc

You are correct. Shane made the wrong decision on that shot.

 

[Aaron_S]

Aaron;

Thanks for posting a cuetable for us. I am pretty sure that the 7 ball was a good bit closer to the 6 making for a much easier billiard than this layout suggests. Also, for the sake of accuracy, I do not believe the 7 ever kissed the 8 on its way in the corner pocket.

I remember when the cueball came to rest from his previous shot I thought immediately that the 7 was a piece of cake for SVB and, alternatively, the 6 was tricky but do-able requiring lots of inside english to keep a tight line back across to the other side given the cut angle.

Scott Frost almost simultaneous to my conclusion pointed out the 7 as being a nice choice then Billy engaged him about illegally pocketed balls. I do feel good that Mr. Frost liked the 7, as well.

I'm not SVB, that's for sure, and I'd feel good about making the billiard on the 7 probably eight out of ten times.

If we are able at some point to view the actual shot footage from the match, I think some in the bank shot camp may rethink their position.

Best,
Brian kc

Yeah we really need to see the video. I know the 7 was a pretty good distance from the 6, because it looked like he could avoid running into it if he wanted to. I'm also almost positive that the 8 got clipped by the 7, because I remember thinking that it got pushed over just enough that he would have had a shot on it if the 6 had gone. Without the video, I know I'm still guessing a bit on this, though. I also remember hearing what Scott said, but I think he meant that he would have called the 6 and the 7, but Billy informed him that it was not an "either/or" situation, and that calling two balls wouldn't be wise because they would both have to go for the shot to be legal. I'm not sure what the rules say exactly in this situation, but what Billy said sounded more correct to me, because I really don't think you can say "I'm going to make either this ball or this ball".

As far as the carom vs. the bank goes, I trust SVB's judgment in calling and shooting the bank. He obviously thought the shot was pocketable, and I think most would choose a cross-side bank over just about any carom that is not hanging. I do agree that the 7-ball was a fairly simple carom into a big pocket, but pocketing the ball is only 1/3 of the battle on a shot like that, because you also have to control the cueball and the 6-ball to have a shot at getting out. If he catches the 7 on the left or right side, it probably still goes off of the 8, but the cueball is going further uptable, away from the 6. Plus, at the speed required to make the carom, where is the 6 going? It could hit a point on a side pocket and go virtually anywhere. In a game where reducing variables is key, I think the bank offered the lowest risk out, but I do agree that SVB got a bit reckless with his choice of spin and speed. Some lessons are expensive.

Aaron

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Just by going from the wei layout alone, I think that by far and away the bank was the right shot. For people of Shane's caliber, that bank is at least 80% favorite to go in.

I do know that after the match, Shane tried the shot a few times again and missed. It was probably the table he wasn't used to playing that shot on. Diamond tables do bank pretty short, I've been a victim of this myself.

Either way, in Shane's mind it was the right shot. If he felt he was gonna make it, than I don't see how anyone can criticize his shot selection. He is one of the best players in the world, he knows what he's doing.

I always laugh when people criticize a pro for shot selection, when they don't know what it feels like to be under the gun in the semi finals or finals of a pro tournament filled with world beaters.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

I always laugh when people criticize a pro for shot selection, when they don't know what it feels like to be under the gun in the semi finals or finals of a pro tournament filled with world beaters.

To be clear, with this thread I was simply hoping to stimulate some discussion on strategy, playing the percentages, and whether anyone watching this specific shot choice that SVB made, felt there was a better option in playing a billiard on the 7.

I would have to have some big brass balls to criticize in any mean-sprited way, as crawfish put it, a player who could give me the orange crush with balls in hand all day and like it, a lot.

I won't beat this poor horse any more ( :deadhorse: thank you, gracias) after saying just one more time: If we had a way to see the real video footage I guarantee some who have stated the 6 bank was the way to go will change their minds. The cuetable diagram that Aaron was nice enough to post doesn't portray the 7 opportunity realistically enough. Plus, I truly think it would be a brilliant opportunity to analyze (and possibly learn from) an example of a shotmaking choice by one of, if not, the premier 10 ball player in the world.

Anywho, I've sure enjoyed reading everyone's points of view. :thumbup:

Best,
Brian kc

 

[cuesblues]

Bank Shot

The 6-ball bank Shane missed in the game before the hill-hill game was far more difficult than the shot in the diagram.
The 6-ball was just past the side pocket an inch or so off the rail, and the CB was at a greater angle.
It also looked like a safety would have been difficult, but SVB is a great safety player.

I was sitting right there and it looked like a low percentage bank to me.
As mentioned before he tried it a few times after the match and missed it each time.
The bank he missed on the hill-hill game was a much easier shot, and I was surprised he attempted that one as well.

Lee Van did make a nice runout to win the hill-hill game but in both situations it was surprising that Shane didn't attempt a safety.

 

[PoolBum]

This is probably a memory failure on my part, but I was thinking the one he missed in the match went long, and then his subsequent practice shots went short. Can't remember for sure.

Aaron

No, he missed it short during the match, and on both practice shots afterward, which he only hit half-heartedly because he was so disgusted with having played poorly and lost the match.

 

[jay helfert]

Aaron;

Thanks for posting a cuetable for us. I am pretty sure that the 7 ball was a good bit closer to the 6 making for a much easier billiard than this layout suggests. Also, for the sake of accuracy, I do not believe the 7 ever kissed the 8 on its way in the corner pocket.

I remember when the cueball came to rest from his previous shot I thought immediately that the 7 was a piece of cake for SVB and, alternatively, the 6 was tricky but do-able requiring lots of inside english to keep a tight line back across to the other side given the cut angle.

Scott Frost almost simultaneous to my conclusion pointed out the 7 as being a nice choice then Billy engaged him about illegally pocketed balls. I do feel good that Mr. Frost liked the 7, as well.

I'm not SVB, that's for sure, and I'd feel good about making the billiard on the 7 probably eight out of ten times.

If we are able at some point to view the actual shot footage from the match, I think some in the bank shot camp may rethink their position.

Best,
Brian kc

On a Diamond table, you must spin this bank a little using left english to throw it uphill. Just cutting it won't work, as Shane found out. It is NOT a hanger! You have to hit it good.

 

[satman]

My main point

I'm not aware of any pro tournament that has required the calling of kisses. All you have to call is a ball and the pocket in which it is to be made. If that ball drops in that pocket after seven cushions and 14 collisions, it is still good.

Straight pool does not require the calling of kisses, just ball and pocket.

And the rotation games, with call shot, are still vastly different from 14.1.

Is, they tried televising straight pool a long time ago, and with all the safety and long runout's, the game was too boring. That's the same problem with one pocket, which is arguably the best game for showing overall talent in billiards. It incorporates all the skills. But, it is boring to most people, who have no patience for watching the "moving part" of the game.



Stop thinking you can take all the luck out of pool, and make it better in the end.

 

[Bayawak]

wrong decision, my a#%

I try not to question a guy that can give me the last five and like it. Talk all you want, but under certain situations, you make a decision. He made his. It's worked pretty well for him so far.

Or.. you could call him and tell him he fu@#ed up.

I'm with you, crawfish. How can these people question Shane's decision in this game? They can, probably if they shoot better than Shane.. Otherwise just drop the subject. This is just a big waste of time and an exercise in futility.

Stop Kicking a dead horse!!

 

[CreeDo]

shane's on the TAR booth now, and said he played the ball with lots of spin to help it spin back uphill towards the pocket... and even with the spin it didn't climb off the rail, just went straight across. Seems to feel the diamonds play that way, as jay says. Slippery rails I guess.

 

[AtLarge]

Is, they tried televising straight pool a long time ago, and with all the safety and long runout's, the game was too boring. That's the same problem with one pocket, which is arguably the best game for showing overall talent in billiards. It incorporates all the skills. But, it is boring to most people, who have no patience for watching the "moving part" of the game.

Stop thinking you can take all the luck out of pool, and make it better in the end.

Designing a pool game to attract a large TV audience is not what I am talking about. That may be a futile effort. My interest is in having a set of rules that levels the playing field in terms of the element of luck and raises the probability that the player who is actually playing the better pool will win the match. That means call-shot pool. I'm not proposing any particular set of rules as "best," just the general principle I've stated here. And we've witnessed a couple of major events in the past few months under sets of rules that did that pretty well.

As to your last sentence, I have never said we should or could take all the luck out of pool (or any other sport played with balls). But it is so easy to eliminate some of the more obnoxious results of luck in pool.

 

[JoeyA]

On a Diamond table, you must spin this bank a little using left english to throw it uphill. Just cutting it won't work, as Shane found out. It is NOT a hanger! You have to hit it good.

THAT'S why I have no chance against you playing banks!

JoeyA

 

[mikeyfrost]

Im pretty sure every player in that tourney would have banked that shot. It looked like an easy bank, we're talking like it was table length or something. He just misjudged it is all, brutal game.