Sandbagging at APA National level

[mm4pool]

well,

I usually dont reply to these threads because i play APA 2 nights a week. i normally read these for the entertainment value only but here goes. i ask all of you posters who have all this first hand knowledge, were you personally involved in the match where you witnessed this sand bagging? the reason i asked is that some people have a very hard time with self assessment after a loss. case in point- a few weeks ago i played a match in 9 ball and put a 20-0 on a equal skill level player. his captain comes screaming over making claims of sandbagging. however when i point out that his player(his son BTW) only made 5 balls in 12 innings this quiets him down. my point is look at the performance in most cases and you will see a player that maybe played a little better than usual but also a player that did NOT play to his or her normal level. i know that it was hard for me to learn to critique myself objectively but that once i did i began to show some improvement.

secondly, why is it that apa is the only entity to be continually bashed for sandbagging. we dont bash nfl coaches when they misrepresent a players injury status, yet that is cheating. we dont bash on race teams for not divulging their race setups. we dont bash on poker players who slow play a good hand just to keep people in the pot. and closer to home, i have never seen a bashing thread about hustlers who purposely misrepresent their skill level for monetary gain, so why all the hatred towards an organization which does bring a lot of new players in to the game? as always the opinions expressed are just my random thoughts.

Mike

 

[DrewWhitehead]

As a former APA player, it's rampant. There is no way around it either. The way to win out there or even in the local "city-wides" that we have here in OKC, is to cheat the system. As for the "pet team", that's also the truth. I will stand and attest to that being the truth here too. Not sure about other places, but there are favorite bars and all.

The way that the league is built, the better you cheat, the better you'll do. Simple as that. Also, if you play another league against any other APA players, they might rat you out. I have had this happen too. I guess if you cant cheat with the best, cheat them out of a chance.

The whole APA thing has gone sour to me anyway, I gave it up and will never go back to it, less someone pays me to play. BCA all the way now.

Just rambling out my ideas

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...Actually there are quite a few of us here who will "bash" a hustler for outright laying down to 'hook' a sucker. Two hustlers trying to 'outhustle' one another is something quite different.

About the APA...I've read all of this thread, and most of the others, and no matter how rosy you want to paint the picture (calling it handicap management, etc)...SANDBAGGING IS CHEATING...PERIOD. If those of you who have cheated your way to nationals, and/or cheated your way to a high finish, are proud of yourselves, I guess that's just a reflection of your own personal values...or lack thereof. Even though it will never happen, I'd love to see lie detectors at pool tournaments like this. It would weed out the cheats pretty quickly...and to heck with them.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I usually dont reply to these threads because i play APA 2 nights a week. i normally read these for the entertainment value only but here goes. i ask all of you posters who have all this first hand knowledge, were you personally involved in the match where you witnessed this sand bagging? the reason i asked is that some people have a very hard time with self assessment after a loss. case in point- a few weeks ago i played a match in 9 ball and put a 20-0 on a equal skill level player. his captain comes screaming over making claims of sandbagging. however when i point out that his player(his son BTW) only made 5 balls in 12 innings this quiets him down. my point is look at the performance in most cases and you will see a player that maybe played a little better than usual but also a player that did NOT play to his or her normal level. i know that it was hard for me to learn to critique myself objectively but that once i did i began to show some improvement.

secondly, why is it that apa is the only entity to be continually bashed for sandbagging. we dont bash nfl coaches when they misrepresent a players injury status, yet that is cheating. we dont bash on race teams for not divulging their race setups. we dont bash on poker players who slow play a good hand just to keep people in the pot. and closer to home, i have never seen a bashing thread about hustlers who purposely misrepresent their skill level for monetary gain, so why all the hatred towards an organization which does bring a lot of new players in to the game? as always the opinions expressed are just my random thoughts.

Mike

 

[s'portplayer]

Mike...Actually there are quite a few of us here who will "bash" a hustler for outright laying down to 'hook' a sucker. Two hustlers trying to 'outhustle' one another is something quite different.

About the APA...I've read all of this thread, and most of the others, and no matter how rosy you want to paint the picture (calling it handicap management, etc)...SANDBAGGING IS CHEATING...PERIOD. If those of you who have cheated your way to nationals, and/or cheated your way to a high finish, are proud of yourselves, I guess that's just a reflection of your own personal values...or lack thereof. Even though it will never happen, I'd love to see lie detectors at pool tournaments like this. It would weed out the cheats pretty quickly...and to heck with them.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

What he said.

 

[justadub]

nope , that helps unscrupulous league operators adjust points for their pet teams .Earned points should be the only points.
one of APAs favorite mottos is "win from the table , not from the chair".
The very idea of 'bonus points' is in direct contradiction of that motto.
the point is for 'properly filled out' paperwork.
if you accidentally leave out a players player number , then the paperwork is "improperly" filled out , and the L.O. can deduct a point from you ?
If your paperwork is 'late' , the L.O. can deduct a point from you?
Wow , I hope there is a way you can audit every other teams scoresheet every single week so that you can see that this is applied fairly , because I am personally aware of APA regions where it is not .
Miss the drop-box deadline ? No problem , the L.O. is my BFF and I'll just drop it by their house before they're done inputing scores the next day. BONUS !
conversely , your sheet can be sitting right in front of them when they mark it 'past due' & withhold your point.
If the 'pet team' forgets to fill in a player number box , maybe the L.O. just pens it in for them cuz they 'jest forgot' . BONUS !
Not all league operators are unscrupulous - I know some I would trust . But I know 1 for certain who , if I had to invite them for dinner , would force me to lock up the good china.

No one "loses" a point, they just don't get an extra point for getting it in on time. They don't take away points earned "on the table". Do I agree with that system, I dunno, but it's not my choice or decision, so I PLAY BY THE RULES, and work to make sure we get the extra point each week. Like everyone else does.

I'm not sure if my LO has any pets or not. He very well may. Most of them would be in the southern part of our state, where he lives, so we "up here" aren't affected by that stuff unless/until we get to states. (Couple hundred miles apart.) We don't see him much, other than the tri-cup state qualifiers at the end of each session. I did go to states this year, and I didn't notice any favoritism, certainly none that stood out. Do I think he has his favorites, even in our part of the world, sure. But does he cheat for them, I kinda doubt it. I have employees that I like better than others, but I don't cheat our company for them. But that's just me, I suppose, naive wide-eyed polyana...

Your blanket claim of unscrupulousness (sp?) is just as tired as "everybody sandbags". Our LO may very well be a bad apple, but I don't think so. Certainly I've not seen anything to indicate that. Are there bad apple LO's out there, most likely. But I somehow doubt they are the majority, just like in any other facet of life. That doesn't minimize how it must suck to be stuck with one of the bad guys, but that doesn't take anything away from the rest of the LO's who are doing a good job running their business. And the thousands of players enjoying their leagues...

 

[Georgia Boy]

Can we also have those Lie Detectors hooked up to Electro Shock Therapy. I would have two clamps for hooking up to individuals and every time they lie they get a shock right through the 'Gonads'. :yikes:

Any Sandbaggers, whether you believe it actaully happens or not, have no class, no morals and are basically sub human IMO.

 

[mm4pool]

What he said.

Mike...Actually there are quite a few of us here who will "bash" a hustler for outright laying down to 'hook' a sucker. Two hustlers trying to 'outhustle' one another is something quite different.

About the APA...I've read all of this thread, and most of the others, and no matter how rosy you want to paint the picture (calling it handicap management, etc)...SANDBAGGING IS CHEATING...PERIOD. If those of you who have cheated your way to nationals, and/or cheated your way to a high finish, are proud of yourselves, I guess that's just a reflection of your own personal values...or lack thereof. Even though it will never happen, I'd love to see lie detectors at pool tournaments like this. It would weed out the cheats pretty quickly...and to heck with them.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i was in no way condoning the practice of sandbagging. i was merely trying to point out that this practise is ongoing in a lot of sports. the apa teams that i have captain'd required that skill levels be watched, which meant that my 7s and 9s didnt play very often and i was constantly looking for new lower level players. i never once told any player of mine to dump or run up innings yet we did win 3 sessions. i just wish that people would aknowledge the fact that cheating ocurrs everywhere, not just in the apa.

Mike

 

[Ctwitty]

DQ'd team

had a 2 play my lowest number which was a 4. needless to say she won 20-0 with 0 innings. in other words she broke and ran a 2 pack, 9 was made before the 8 so almost a 2 pack. that team made it into the 2nd round and during that match is finally when the APA DQd the entire team.

You say that it wasn't until the second round that they were finally disqualified. The second round, are you kidding me, how soon would you have expected that they got disqualified. Sounds like the handicap review committee was right on it and took care of it right away. Fantastic job APA

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...I knew that, and didn't mean to imply it. It was very clear in your post. I should have just quoted the part about bashing hustling, instead of the entire post. Thanks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i was in no way condoning the practice of sandbagging. i was merely trying to point out that this practise is ongoing in a lot of sports. the apa teams that i have captain'd required that skill levels be watched, which meant that my 7s and 9s didnt play very often and i was constantly looking for new lower level players. i never once told any player of mine to dump or run up innings yet we did win 3 sessions. i just wish that people would aknowledge the fact that cheating ocurrs everywhere, not just in the apa.

Mike

 

[JohnnyShakes]

Onw of the reasons people bash the APA is the sandbagging/underrated player. That being said for those of you who have gone to vegas for Nationals, how many blatant examples of sandbagging do you see?

I am wondering about this because I will be going to nationals for eight ball and don't know what to expect. So many people speak of it that I'm going to start thinking that everyone is one sl up . Any experiences or stories out there?

Foolio,

Don't sweat the sandbaggers. There are always going to be people who are at the top of their skill level, or even one level lower than they should be. This doesn't mean that they can't be beat. Have you ever racklessed a 6? I know you have, so that means they could have played as a 2, and you still would have beaten them. Just play your game, be smart and do your best to stay focused. Don't get intimidated by what your opponent does on the table. Just treat every turn at the table as your chance to gain control of the outcome. You play smart, so you can beat anyone. If you play a two who breaks and runs on you, take a deep breath and tell yourself that you're not going to give them the.chance to do that again. Everyone is going to miss a shot. That's when you attack. Keep them in their chair, and then leave them locked up when you finally let them back to the table. Do this a few times and watch how their attitude changes. The sandbaggers hate this, and their game goes downhill quickly. That's when you know you have them.

More than anything else, HAVE FUN OUT THERE. You're in Vegas to play pool. It doesn't get much more fun than that. I know you and your team will represent our league with grace and class. Leave a positive impression on every team you meet. Them stomp them on the tables.

Good luck and shoot well.

Johnny

P.S. I'm still not gonna give you our APA race next time we match up. I might as well just give you my money and save the table time.

 

[Georgia Boy]

On this last point I would have to agree with Mike, cheating happens in a lot of places and a lot of sports. It's a sad reflection on a society where many see winning at any cost as acceptable. In the end it comes down to individual responsibility a player has to do what's right. It is very difficult for anyone on the sidelines to say definatively if someone is/has been cheating, you have to feel for those who try. The problem there is some individuals wouldn't know right from wrong it if got up and slapped them in the face and couldn't even spell responsibility.

 

[Scott Lee]

tap, tap, tap...and that obviously includes several posters in this thread!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The problem there is some individuals wouldn't know right from wrong it if got up and slapped them in the face and couldn't even spell responsibility.

 

[justadub]

Foolio,

Don't sweat the sandbaggers. There are always going to be people who are at the top of their skill level, or even one level lower than they should be. This doesn't mean that they can't be beat. Have you ever racklessed a 6? I know you have, so that means they could have played as a 2, and you still would have beaten them. Just play your game, be smart and do your best to stay focused. Don't get intimidated by what your opponent does on the table. Just treat every turn at the table as your chance to gain control of the outcome. You play smart, so you can beat anyone. If you play a two who breaks and runs on you, take a deep breath and tell yourself that you're not going to give them the.chance to do that again. Everyone is going to miss a shot. That's when you attack. Keep them in their chair, and then leave them locked up when you finally let them back to the table. Do this a few times and watch how their attitude changes. The sandbaggers hate this, and their game goes downhill quickly. That's when you know you have them.

More than anything else, HAVE FUN OUT THERE. You're in Vegas to play pool. It doesn't get much more fun than that. I know you and your team will represent our league with grace and class. Leave a positive impression on every team you meet. Them stomp them on the tables.

Tap, tap, tap. Very well said.

 

[MikeM]

Why would she call her shot in APA?

To keep from getting marked for a safety?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

With all this business about knowing which players to have dump their match (and when): Will someone relate a story about watching a match where it appeared pretty obvious that both players were trying to lose? I would imagine it must happen on occasion. That would be entertaining to watch. :grin:

 

[s'portplayer]

i was in no way condoning the practice of sandbagging. i was merely trying to point out that this practise is ongoing in a lot of sports. the apa teams that i have captain'd required that skill levels be watched, which meant that my 7s and 9s didnt play very often and i was constantly looking for new lower level players. i never once told any player of mine to dump or run up innings yet we did win 3 sessions. i just wish that people would aknowledge the fact that cheating ocurrs everywhere, not just in the apa.

Mike

I completely agree with ya Mike, didn't mean to imply anything else and apologize if you thought so.

If anyone intentionally slows down to "hustle" someone, whether it's during league, action, or anywhere.... That is cheating in my book.

Yes, I know it happens in most sports, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[rlw]

I don't think sandbagging is 'cheating'. It is dishonorable, but the 'rules' of APA almost dictate that you should attempt to sandbag. A lot.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't and don't agree with it, but that is why I don't play APA.

Sandbagging happens and APA has no real idea or intentions for dealing with it.

Cheating and being dishonorable are the same thing!!! Only low life scum cheats!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ridinda9]

i ask all of you posters who have all this first hand knowledge, were you personally involved in the match where you witnessed this sand bagging? i have never seen a bashing thread about hustlers who purposely misrepresent their skill level for monetary gain,

Mike

1) yes , I have been personally involved in the match - uh , my name is Sandy Bagger . . .
2) try your search key for hustler bashing threads - I've seen 'em & contributed , in the last few days , in fact

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

I have been out 3 times for Team 8 Ball, 2 times for Jack N Jill, once each for doubles and masters. I have only seen one instance where I could call it "blatant" sandbagging and that was in a mini.

However, I am also convinced that a team will not get past 64th-65th without a couple of players on their team being under handicapped. Go out have a good time and enjoy yourself and go as far as you can. It is just that out of the hundreds of teams there a certain percentage of those will be cheating and they will stay in the tournament longer so the farther you go the more likely it is that you will run into one.

On another but related subject. I am sure that there are some honest APA league operators out there just like there are some that are not on the square. For the posters that are league operators..Does the APA offer you guys the opportunity to call out those operators that keep sending out cheaters? I mean if there is an area that has a team DQ'd each year that would be an indication that they are not running things properly. Personally, if I owned a franchise and was running it honestly/fairly I would be really hot if another LO kept sending teams of cheaters out to nationals. Those guys give the whole system a black eye and are cheating your customers.
Just my 2 bits...

 

[ridinda9]

Your blanket claim of unscrupulousness (sp?) is just as tired as "everybody sandbags".

never made a blanket claim . Read all the way to the bottom of the post you quoted , and the last paragraph starts :
"Not all league operators are unscrupulous - I know some I would trust."
I was only posting a fact-based anecdote.