Danny D. and the HOF
- Thread starter Jerry Forsyth
- Start date
How does this work? So the voters get to vote among those on the ballot (candidates as you said)? How (and by who) are the candidates chosen or determined? How/by who is it decided who will be on the ballot? And who exactly puts together their resumes that are given out to the voters for review?
Fred, thanks for the list of voting members. So we can address any correspondence to them at the Michigan Ave address and the members will receive it?
Who exactly are the voting members of the Veterans Committee? Is this a completely different group of people from the regular voting members? How and by who was this group picked?
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The HoF Committee sends out the names, but they are only a initial sample of names of players who are eligible. The voting members can then present back other names for consideration.
I don't know if that would or wouldn't work. But, at least it's a list and if you're creative enough, you can find these people. Most are not hard to find as a bunch are writers for every magazine out there or forum owners/members.
I'll defer to anyone else who might know.
Fred
Jerry,
Thanks for providing a lot of great information about the HOF voting.
Are the outcomes of each person's vote made public or are only the final tabulated results made public?
Thanks Fred! You have certainly provided us with a lot of good information about the HOF process and have been particularly helpful in answering questions I've had now and in the past. :thumbup:
Rep to you,sir.
Rep to you,sir.
Jerry,
This is a hard post for me to write. And the only reason for it being so hard to write is because I like you a lot. Every time I ever sat with you and Tom, you guys were the epitomy of class and fun. I enjoy your pool commentating, I appreciate your contributions here and to pool in general and I know your heart is in the right place. Also, you and your wife are soft hearted and kind people who have helped many people behind the scenes. For all of that, we're very grateful. So naturally, I don't like putting any heat on you, so that's why this is kind of tough.
First off, have you or any of the suits at the BCA EVER wondered why the decisions that the BCA makes are so often not understood or, worse yet, disagreed with so strongly? For example, remember this thread re: "Man of the Decade"?.....http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=190113
Why are so many of the BCA's decisions so unpopular and controversial with the pool fans?
I quoted two things from your post. The first was what I construe as an admission that there WAS a lot of politicing going on behind the scenes, at least previously. Some of the inductees and the ORDER in which they were inducted are outlandish. That's the best word I can come up with the describes some of the goings on in the BCA.
An example? Why was Earl Strickland passed over so many times before he was finally inducted on his last year of eligibility? There simply will never be a logical or reasonable answer to that question, other than politics. Shameful and not soon forgotten by the public.
Also, Lou Butera, a fine player and a fine human being as well, is inducted in the BCA H.O.F. based on what? His single, lone and only World 14.1 Championship? Bennie Allen has a slew of World Championships and he's not in. Why?
Cisero Murphy. "First and only African American".......to win a World Championship. Well, the major problem with that is twofold. One, the single, lone and only World Championship he won is not listed in the BCA's own rules and record book! Why? Because it was an unsanctioned tournament. And years ago, one of their stipulations was the inductee had to have won sanctioned major tournaments. And two, is he inducted on his skills or his color? Inducting the first "African American" to win a World Championship but yet, ignoring the first Filipino-American (Parica) that won a world championship is discriminating against every other race that does not have IT'S first winning champion inducted, is it not? In other words, why do "African Americans" get a special recognition that they were the "first" and yet, other nationalities are not given that same treatment? Why isn't Fong Pang Chao inducted based on his winning 2 SANCTIONED World 9 Ball Championships? He could also be inducted based on being the first Chinese Taipei player to win 2 World Championships. Takeshi Okumura should be in, based on the Murphy logic, because he's the first Japanese player to win a sanctioned World 9 Ball Championship. Why isn't Oliver Ortmann already inducted? He's got more U.S. Open 14.1 Championships and World 9 Ball Championships than Butera and Murphy COMBINED.
It sounds unfair because it IS unfair.
I also quoted a second statement from your post..."Please someone explain to me how Buddy being in the HOF has enriched anyone within the BCA or the print media?" Here's my question....Why should an inductee, ANY inductee, have to "enrich anyone within the BCA"??? It's the BCA's job to honor the great players. They're not supposed to induct players who can "enrich" the BCA, are they? Or is that what they've counted on in the past, which would explain some of the curious order in which players were inducted.
I would also go as far as to say that Buddy Hall and every other person they've inducted DO add prestige and honor to that orginazation by having a slew of worthy and great champions inducted. Or at least, that's how it SHOULD be. Worthy and great champions should be inducted, based on major accomplishments. Not based on skin color or who likes them for non credential reasons.
Now that the BCA has inducted a player with NO BCA sanctioned championships (Murphy), then maybe it's time to induct the likes of Grady Mathews, Jose Parica, Danny DiLiberto, Ronnie Allen, etc.
Thankfully, we have Steve Booth over at OnePocket.org who has created and maintained a H.O.F. that does not discriminate against non-connected players and champions.
One more thing that grated me deeply was when the BCA announced they would NOT be having an induction because they were cutting costs. In the end, they did have an induction, but just to bemoan it like they did showed that their collective heart was not or is not really into the Hall of Fame portion of the business. After all, they did mention the prohibitive cost of hosting a H.O.F. banquet to "honor" their iinductees.
Jerry, these are just my thoughts and opinions. I don't claim to be always right, but I do feel very strongly about the order in which some of these inductees were inducted.
The BCA even cancelled the BCA Open 9 Ball Championship, which was later named the Enjoypool.com Championship. Either way, they dumped men's pro pool from their schedule. And isn't it the BCA's responsibility to come up with sponsors? Every other federation has the same responsibilities, and they have their tournaments. What exactly is the BCA doing, other than promoting amateur pool leagues? Which explains why Hubbart and Bell will be eating at this year's banquet.
This wasn't directed at you personally Jerry, but you are involved with the goings on. You can be our "go to" guy with these messages to the BCA from the members here who have spoken from their hearts. And also, I really appreciated JAM's posts here. Dead on accurate in my opinion.
Still, my very best goes to you Jerry. You have the unenviable position of having to hear the complaining and having to field the tough questions that are caused by others in the BCA. Just don't take none of this personally. I got no complaints with you.
JAM...Most of the time we're on the same page about things. That said, Fatty had more larceny in him then Parica could EVER muster, and he was inducted many years ago. Don't get me wrong...I loved Fats...but he was a con man of the first order!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
In fairness, you are talking about two completely different eras.
Baxter...In all fairness, the HOF "voting" is 10x LESS political nowadays than it was when Fatty was inducted.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I wasn't speaking at all about politics. I'm saying that in Fat's era, there were very few professional pool tournaments. If you played pool in those days, you played for money. It's a bit different now than it was then.
Terry...Just a clarification. The BCA does not promote amateur pool leagues.
The BCAPL is a separate, privately owned business entity. The BCA is a trade orgainization. I do believe that they should honor past and present great players, as well as others who have contributed significantly to the game.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
The BCAPL is a separate, privately owned business entity. The BCA is a trade orgainization. I do believe that they should honor past and present great players, as well as others who have contributed significantly to the game.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Your post is so well written, Terry, taking into consideration other people's feelings and still getting your point across without being mean-spirited. You should be a writer and be one of the voting members, but I fear you'll still be out-numbered by the pool purist voting members.
The tension in pool today truly boils down to pool purist versus action enthusiast. This tension seems to be the biggest sticking point. You read about it on this very forum quite often.
It's so ironic that Billiards Digest (BD) gave Ewa Mataya credit for the popularity of "The Color of Money" in 1986, writing an article about it. I never understood why BD felt that way then, but I think it's becoming crystal clear to me today.
After contemplating this topic all weekend, I think I've finally come up with an ending to a pool-related project that I have been working on for seven-plus years. The subject matter of this thread is right on cue [pun intended]! :wink:
BTW, I love Ewa. We share the same birthday. My other half said she's good people, beautiful within her very soul. She's also easy on the eyes for the gents, which is always a good thing.
Keith and I were at the Super Billiards Expo (SBE) in 2002, subject to check, walking like mountain goats for the miles and miles and miles that one is required to walk when attending the SBE in Valley Forge. We heard a female's voice from across the gigantic second floor saying, "Hey, you." We looked over, and there was Ewa giving an exhibition, but when she saw Keith, not having seen him for a long while, she had to say hi. They exchanged a few words, and you could tell that she was genuinely happy to see Keith, and the feeling was mutual. It was pretty cool for me, never having seen her in person before.
Yeah, I'm an Ewa fan. Looks like Keith is an Ewa fan, too, getting a little too comfy as I shot this picture, taken in Orlando in December 2005.
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Fats was on ESPN with Willie, too. Pool was much different in this era than it is today -- MUCH DIFFERENT. Comparing the two is not a good analogy, but I can see why you'd think that way.
Look, you and I are definitely on different sides of the fence on this issue, and that's okay. I understand your thoughts and appreciate your taking the time to express them. I'll continue to feel the exact same way as I do today about the BCA's voting process for the Hall of Fame.
Very well written post Terry! I agree with all you've said including the nice things you had to say about Jerry. I know that Danny thinks the world of Jerry and has told me many times. I get frustrated sometimes and lash out at what I feel are injustices which is what started this whole controversy, but you laid it out in a much more intelligent way. Thank you my friend!
Terry,
Nice post but with two corrections. I don't believe Jose is Filipino-American, just Filipino. Minor distinction, but I believe he was born in the Philipines.
Also, I believe you and Jerry are in total agreement about Buddy Hall's induction. Another poster accused the BCA from profiting from Buddy Hall's induction, and Jerry was asking how is this possibly true. You re-enforced Jerry's position.
I really only know Danny D. from Accu-Stats productions. I've read his history and find his life story fascinating. I could listen to his stories and commentary all night long. If I could spend an evening shooting pool with him that would be VERY cool. I hope he makes it into the HOF soon.
Mike
LOL!
JAM <---another poster
What JAM said: Ask Buddy Hall what he's received for his BCA Hall of Fame recognition, as an example. I'm sure he's proud as punch to be recognzied by the pool print media and industry members, but it hasn't put any money in his pocket, but, gee, I wonder how much Buddy Hall being in the Hall of Fame has put in their collective pockets.
I would elaborate, but I don't want to instigate a flame thread. Without pool players, the BCA wouldn't be able to provide salaries to their full-time employees. Since they are the supposed organizational entity representing North America on a global scale, you would think they would invest more in the professional players than they do. It's miniscule.
Without pro players, who don't *usually* receive one red cent for interviews written about them, the billiard mags might not profit or break even, if they do, allowing the magazine employees to receive a salary. Most sports celebrities receive compensation for interviews to magazines. In pool, this doesn't happen very often, if at all, to my knowledge. Then again, some pool purists don't believe some pool players -- the road warriors and action players in particular -- are worthy of having anything written about them, much less be inducted into the BCA's Hall of Fame. This is my opinion.
Granted, most writers for pool mags don't receive much by way of compensation, as most of them work in a freelance capacity, and I do have firsthand knowledge on this topic.
Buddy Hall being in the Hall of Fame has benefitted others financially more so than himself, my opinion.
The existing lot of professional players in America is dwindling. I can count on one hand who can afford to attend high-profile events overseas, which pool tournaments are held overseas much more so today than 20 years ago. With less of an American representation in these overseas tournaments, this diminishes the American pool strength, which is already suffering due to the dwindling of professional players today in 2010. Without American professional players, the BCA may have to represent something else, unless a handful of American pros can keep them afloat.
The billiard mags, especially the print media, is already struggling, but the print media everywhere today experiences this, thanks to the advent of the Internet. Most people today prefer to get their news as quickly as possible, and the Internet affords this opportunity, much like this forum does. Billiard mags may have to come up with an innovative strategy to turn a profit in the future.
Whether it's action or tournament play, people enjoy reading about pro players. It is a shame that they are a dying breed in the United States.
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Thanks Sherm.
Also, I won't be making out your way anytime soon. Hoped to but just can't. I'll give you a call early next week to set up what we talked about and then do it by mail instead.