Why is the APA so frowned upon?

[Scott Lee]

Sherm...Okay, perhaps vendetta is too strong a word (so please allow me to apologize publicly to you for that). How about vehement feelings (which, according to many of your posts, are understandable). I think I have a VERY unbiased opinion...since I've been connected with the BCA (as an instructor) for more more than 20 years, AND I've been an APA LO (Just FYI, APA corporate had a stroke when I used my business card with both the APA and BCA logos on it. They tried to strongarm me into discontinuing it, and I told them where to stick it). All I'm saying is not all APA leagues are like the one you suffered through in your area. I don't doubt that what you described happened, nor do I doubt that the LO's you spoke of were "less than amiable or honest". That said, there are over 200 APA LO's. Probably less than 20% do things like you describe. That is disgraceful, especially in the face of how I ran my league...however, that doesn't make the other 80% assholes and pimps either. What percent of used car dealers are 'unsavory'? How many lawyers are 'ambulance chasers'? I suspect the percentage is higher in both of those industries...but that doesn't make it okay. I can't do anything about dishonest people, whether they be players, or league operators...except choose not to associate with them. But it is clear that there ARE APA league areas that are well run, with happy players (whatever the benefits they get back). The APA is not, and never will be, a money league. They provide a service. If the people didn't want it, it would not exist. Wanna talk about robbers and thieves? How about the banking/credit industry. They screw EVERYBODY...and legally get away with it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Gee Scott, what would you know about an unbiased opinion of the APA?

Since you made the comment that I had a vendetta against the APA, I made a point of not posting in this thread unless you did, but I should have known you would not let me down!:grin:

Let me tell you a little about my experience with the APA, and I won't even go into the obvious rules issues I have.

I've been playing pool for over 40 years myself and played in the Busch League when it was first formed, owned a bar and supported it like a good APA'er. We had one league operator who had MS and due to his illness, we didn't

have playoffs the first year and of course no one in the area was qualified to go to the nationals. That was unfortunate, but we all understood why and there wasn't too many people upset. He gave up his franchise. The next LO

in our area skipped town with the final 4 weeks of the dues and because he didn't pay the powers to be in St.Louis again no one was qualified for the nationals and of course the APA did nothing to rectify the situation. The next

LO was like a "Hitler". He thought his shit didn't stink and that it was his way or the highway! A lot of people chose the highway! Teams broke up, whole divisions folded and again we weren't qualified for higher level tournaments!

The next guy was just as bad but was sneakier about it. My team went to Columbus to play in the State tournament. The state was run by the LO in Columbus who owned a vending company and one of the main bars playing in

their division. We had a player on our team who was a SL7 all year, paid his dues and played up until we had to play against his pet team, from his bar when the LO declared he was a "pro" and was disqualified. I called St. Louis

and talked to Larry Hubbart myself and Larry said he knew the player and he was a "top flight amateur" (his words) and was eligible. The LO said "HE WAS RUNNING THE STATE TOURNAMENT NOT LARRY HUBBART" and if we

wanted to continue, we would play without our "top flight amateur" or we would forfeit! I called St. Louis again and Larry Hubbart said that the LO had the final say on the subject, that he was in fact running the tournament, not

St. Louis. We ended up losing by one game due to this ruling and coming in second. When the trophy's were handed out I took ours and told the LO to go make a baby by his self, in not those words and we left. I quit the APA BS

for a few years and another LO came along and I decided to give them one more chance. At this point I owned a pool room instead of the bar and put together a team of fairly good players. Everyone but one player played up to

their handicap but we had one "ringer" who remained a SL2, Eugene Metz. About half way through the session the LO found out that Eugene had a nickname, "Clem" and that he had at one time been one of the most feared

money players in the world. Every other team in the league had several sandbaggers but because we had the infamous Clem on our roster we came under scrutiny. Everyones handicap was raised including 2 guys who were

actually a 2 and a 3! Neither one had a clue, but were nice guys and we wanted them as part of our team. We could only field a legal team (under the 23 rule) every other week because our lowest handicapped player was a

fireman and was at the firehouse every other week. On one of the weeks we knew we had to forfeit the last match, we had the option of playing either a weak 4 (the guy who should have been a 3) or a 5. The opposing team

captain said we had to play the 4 because our fireman, the 3 wasn't present even though he was on our roster. We called the LO and asked for a ruling and explained every detail to him, the opposing team captain weighed in

with his side as well! The LO said we could play the 5 and forfeit the last match. We won the other 4! When the paperwork came out for the next week it showed us with 5 losses. When I called the LO about the discrepancy he

told me that the other team protested and he sided with them at a later date! I argued that if he hadn't ruled that we could play the 5, we could have played the other player and we would have won at least 3 out of the 5

matches. He wouldn't budge! We dropped out of the league! Several years later, a customer of mine bought a new cue for himself and his wife and they pressured me into playing on their team in a different county and with a

different LO. Again they started raising our handicaps at the end of the session to the point where we could no longer field a legal team under the 23 rule. In the city tournament we had to forfeit the last match again and I had

to play a guy, who I happen to like very much, but I had to spot him 1 game even though he played professionally. That was my last straw with the APA and why I don't like the rules and system they have of fleecing the

players! And why I'm so vocal about the APA! I feel I've earned the right!

 

[Koop]

I hate the APA so much I just accepted recruitment to my third team

Seriously, I understand why some don't like it.
If Sherm wants to come on here and blast the APA, it's his right and I am not going to get butt hurt about it. It seems to me he has very legitimate gripes.
Fact is, I like it and if I didn't I have the choice to walk away.

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm,

Just some thoughts.

You and I have gone back and forth on a few threads regarding APA. I definitely respect your opinion and also the amount of time you have put into the gameas a player, bar and room owner.

Your above post shows that you have has a long standing issue with the L.O.'s in your surrounding area. I don't know how far back that goes but I can see your mistrust for the league as a whole.
Is it possible that the teams that you put together were just too strong from the start to play within the 23 rule and the fault lies not only with the L.O. for raising your players, but also with you team for not realizing how strong your team was from the start.

You also admitted to keeping a 2 as a ringer because everyone else was doing it. You have called me nieve in the past but I highly doubt every team was doing it (just my opinion as i was not in your league). It was probably a few teams but those are the ones that you remember. My thought on this is simple. You were a bar owner, player, captain and yet you participated knowingly in the sandbagging. You most liekly carried alot of respect from other players in your area. To me you should have been part of a league solution, not part of the problem. Just my opinion. The only way to change the culture is to have the people that are respected begin the process. You could have done but choose not to.

Is it possible the current L.O. is better than the ones you had back then. Have you spoken to them. Before you tell everyone not to play, you should know what the current set up is. maybe it is better. would you even be able to recognize it if it was?

I understand your frustration about Larry not being able to overrule your L.O. at your state tournament. Unfortunely that is how I believe a franchise works. I don't know about franchise law but perhaps he was completely unable to do so (just a thought). Have you looked at it from that perspective

There have been many on here who have posted that they have a pretty good L.O. and seem to have a good time out and seem to get paid back enough (even if it is not 80 % or higher as some have suggensted other leagues pay back). But you seem to discount us as being nieve.

The APA has over 250,000 members that is a fact. You constantly post that the majority of the people who play in the APA don't like it but play out of neccessity. If over time, the majority of people don't like something, they will stop doing it, let alone recruit others to do it with them (as you claim is necessary to keep the league going.) Your logic around this is completely flawed.

As I said, i respect your opinions as someone who has been around the game for a long time but I believe in this case your opinion is jaded based on a series of events that happenend a long time ago that were out of your control.

I am sure we will debate on this topic again.

Leagueguy

Some of what you say is no doubt, true. I'm sure that everyone in the APA hasn't had the kind of experiences I've had, that's blatantly true! As far as our r"ringer", after a while, you kind of get the attitude that if you can't beat

them, you join them or beat them at their own game! I can only speak of what I've experienced and what I hear from other players who have continued to play in the APA around my area. I have a pretty constant flow of players

coming in and out of my shop getting repair work and buying cues. I just had a couple in today who were telling me they were done with the APA after having just returned from the nationals in Vegas. Their team had to split up

and only 5 out of the original 8 players could play in Vegas due to handicaps rising. My biggest complaint is not with the LO's even though locally as you just read, it's been horrendous. My biggest complaint has always been the

"23 Rule" and how it's used almost like a pyramid scheme, forcing teams to divide and form new teams with lower handicapped players so that the APA will make more profit. This was even a selling point they used to recruit new

bars to join the leagues! I know I've heard the pitch directly from the horses mouth! I feel that this penalizes players for improving and causes the sandbagging in the leagues! And you can't say I didn't do something about it. I

brought a new league to Cincinnati back in the early 90's and in 2 years time we were bigger than the APA! BUT i already had 2 businesses to run and I was neither interested in running a league, nor had the time to do so

without my other businesses, which were much more important to me, suffering. I turned it over to a pro pool player friend and in less than 2 years he got fed up with dealing with drunks and bought a pool room in another state.

I've been there and done that! I know the job of LO is a terribly stressful and dificult job. You'll never please everyone, but with the APA the inherent flaw in the system is in my opinion unjust. And just because they have

250,000 members doesn't make it right. There were millions of people in Germany under Hitlers rule but that didn't make that right either! I've got better things to do than argue about the APA but I felt the need to respond. Good

Day sir, and I hope you have a much better experience with the APA than I did!

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm...Okay, perhaps vendetta is too strong a word (so please allow me to apologize publicly to you for that). How about vehement feelings (which, according to many of your posts, are understandable). I think I have a VERY unbiased opinion...since I've been connected with the BCA (as an instructor) for more more than 20 years, AND I've been an APA LO (Just FYI, APA corporate had a stroke when I used my business card with both the APA and BCA logos on it. They tried to strongarm me into discontinuing it, and I told them where to stick it). All I'm saying is not all APA leagues are like the one you suffered through in your area. I don't doubt that what you described happened, nor do I doubt that the LO's you spoke of were "less than amiable or honest". That said, there are over 200 APA LO's. Probably less than 20% do things like you describe. That is disgraceful, especially in the face of how I ran my league...however, that doesn't make the other 80% assholes and pimps either. What percent of used car dealers are 'unsavory'? How many lawyers are 'ambulance chasers'? I suspect the percentage is higher in both of those industries...but that doesn't make it okay. I can't do anything about dishonest people, whether they be players, or league operators...except choose not to associate with them. But it is clear that there ARE APA league areas that are well run, with happy players (whatever the benefits they get back). The APA is not, and never will be, a money league. They provide a service. If the people didn't want it, it would not exist. Wanna talk about robbers and thieves? How about the banking/credit industry. They screw EVERYBODY...and legally get away with it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,
Apology accepted and offered to you as well! I know that not all LO's could be like the ones I've experienced and I'm sure with proper management the APA could be fine for certain players. I'm probably just bitter because of what I've endured in this area. Please don't get me started on the banking industry! :grin:

 

[gunzby]

My opinion must be drastically different from a lot of people here so I will reply to various things I see in this and other threads about the subject.

The APA will not make you a better player

I actually agree with this. I would also agree that the BCA, CPL, TAP, VNEA or any other league wouldn't make me a better player. I will make myself a better player by any means necessary and certainly won't depend on a league to do it for me because that simply isn't possible.

The APA doesn't pay out enough

The area that I am in pays out $8,000 p/team for winning the cities. I think they have the cities 3, or 4 times a year. Yes the area has a lot of players, but to pay out $48,000-64,000 to 8/9 ball teams per year is pretty good imo. Add in the money paid to Singles, Masters and I think the Second Chance Tourney pays out as well and I am sure it is closer to $100,000 a year. I'm also sure that my LO paid a pretty penny for the 80 or so Diamond BBs, balls, Diamond lights, bridges, racks and rental of the Expo for the Cities. I would consider that to also be money given back to the players because it could always be held at some dive with a dozen or so bar tables which would take forever to run.

I get the idea that I am in a well run league from what I have read which makes me happy. I understand that this league is very large and can afford adding more money to teams and also making things very nice for the cities every time they have it.

 

[jrt30004]

i just don't get why people keep rehashing this crap. do a search it's been discussed to death. i play on three apa teams (sometimes four) i don't do it for the money. if you do you're an idiot. sorry but it's true. i also play bca. and that ain't for the cash either. they are leagues. they are trying to make money and they pay the players back a little bit. that's it. I play in leagues for the practice. i have gotten fairly good from taking advantage of the way the leagues work in my area. we get ALOT of free practice. i know - you don't in your area and the players are bangers and criminals and the tables suck and the lo's are douches and on and on. if the leagues in your area suck i'm sorry, don't play. step up and play in tournaments - i do that to, everything from local 10 to 20 dollar entries and when i can afford it i'll pay 35 to 50 to play in a viking or gsbt event. no tourney's around you? gamble. people will bet cheap or high. all you gotta do is ask. don't have any of those options? move or quit playing but please quit crying. you say you got jobbed by the apa, vnea, bca, insert league here, join the club. i got shafted out of going to vegas last year because a sandbagger whipped my a*s in the finals of the regional singles - oh well i still get to play up to 30 hours of pool a week for about 40 bucks a week and 50 a year in dues. not a bad trade off if you live in the atlanta area considering the normal table time is around 10 bucks an hour. don't have that near you? c'mon down. housing's cheap, have good rooms with nice tables. traffic's rough but you can work around it. contact woody mcclure for the apa or clay fisher/james hester/curtis hale for the bca. and if you like custom cues more than a few of my apa and bca mates have some nice stuff to show and talk about and would love to hear and see what you play with. oh my god - yes we actually know about cues. steve lomax used to shoot in my bca division i'm pretty sure he can tell ya about 'em. and it's not uncommon to here us talk about the latest stream matches or who's betting high in conyers or going to the derby or if earl had another hissy. oh wait, i forgot league players can't pick earl out of a line up much less a pinoy. some of you are either ridiculous - if you think all league players are idiots, or myopic if you base your whole view of leagues and league players on just your area. and to answer the op - the apa is frowned upon for the poor rules they have and the return on money paid in - that's the nutshell version.

 

[Pushout]

You're right about "old school" eight ball.
The APA didn't bastardize it. The BCA has changed the game. It's not eight ball any more. Eight ball on the break is not a win? Open table after the break? Scratch on eight ball is not a loss? And now, ball in hand anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break? This is not eight ball anymore, it's just a game of run the balls. It's who's got the best break wins. All of the eight ball skills are being removed from the game.

Gee....kinda like 9-ball!

 

[SCCues]

I play in the APA (BCA is nowhere near me). Winning the cities here gets you $8,000 p/team (8 and 9 ball teams). I can't remember what the Masters pays out, but it is a fair amount as well. They hold the cities 3 times a year I think so that is $48,000 and when ya add in the Masters it's over $50,000. Back when the SBE had an APA tournament they would also send the 2nd place team there with like $2,000 as well.

Can't help but mention that the cities is held at the Metrolina Expo in Charlotte with about 80 Diamond BBs.

After reading gripe after gripe about the APA on this forum I'm thinking that I have it really good where I am.

Believe me you have it great......$8000 per team in the cities where you are and the last time I heard it's no where near that here where I live. I don't play in the APA because of the rampant sand bagging and I mean rampant. If you don't have at least 2 players under handicapped forget it in the tournaments. I saw a 2 handicap break and run out and another female 2 banked in 3 balls in one game on her way to running out in 8 ball. Now tell me the handicaps are even close with 2's playing like that and that's just 2 examples........

James

 

[Koop]

LMFAO....

The banner at the top, while reading this thread, is an advertisement for the APA.

 

[sfleinen]

LMFAO....

The banner at the top, while reading this thread, is an advertisement for the APA.

Koopster:

You should've taken a screenshot, cropped out just your AZB browser window from the screenshot, and posted it here. That would've been a funny sight to behold!

-Sean

 

[klockdoc]

Isn't this thread like..................

Doesn't it ever get tiring. If you don't like the association, DON'T PLAY IN IT.
:thumbup:

 

[Maniac]

i just don't get why people keep rehashing this crap. do a search it's been discussed to death.

Are you freakin' kiddin' me ??? This sh*t's more entertaining than summer re-runs. I mean, we get at least two new APA threads per week and this newest one is already up to seven pages in length. I think most of the posters just like to continuously stir the sh*t pot :sorry:. I like to sit behind my keyboard reading these posts and imagine which posters are releasing steam out from under their collars as they're typing. I mean, c'mon, don't you at the very least find some humor in all of this???

FWIW, I see truth in BOTH sides of these types of threads. I think the bottom line on how the APA is viewed all depends on the certain area/LO that is in any given area. It certainly appears that there are both decent APA league areas and some that just plain suck. I think the people that are adamantly for or against the APA as a whole are not being objective enough. The answer, as usual on topics like these, lies somewhere in the middle.

Maniac

 

[Bigkahuna]

Apa

Well, it is a "recreational" pool league. It is designed to be a fun league. My biggest complaint is that it is not fun for me as a captain to watch 43 inning matches. However I play by the rules they have and enjoy it for what it is. It is the largest league in the country and many have complaints. However, it is my opinion that between infants and pool players, pool players actually cry more and it hasn't been any different in any other league I have played in.

In my opinion the APA has a profitable business model and a growing product available to consumers. I would bet that there are a good many pool halls across the country that are very happy to be APA locations and thank god for that as there would be more pool halls closing if not.

Like many sports there are all levels of interest and what is wrong with having a venue that all levels can play in?

 

[Snapshot9]

One sentence

Because it is the most 'Mickey Mouse' league that exists... period.

 

[cuesmith]

After carefully thinking about my position regarding the APA, I think the difference between whether it's a good experience for you or not is based on your own lifestyle and involvement in pool. I've obviously been pretty deeply

involved and most of my friends are above average pool players, not above average bar pool players, but what I guess is a level or two above that. When you're in a situation like me, it's nearly impossible to have a team of friends

playing together without either sandbagging or having to break up your team. I don't mean to sound like an elitist because I'm often the worse player on my team or in my circle of friends. If pool is not an important part of your life

and your circle of friends extends out of the pool world, it's probably fine for you. If you're in my boat, it isn't! Nuff said!

 

[greyghost]

After carefully thinking about my position regarding the APA, I think the difference between whether it's a good experience for you or not is based on your own lifestyle and involvement in pool. I've obviously been pretty deeply

involved and most of my friends are above average pool players, not above average bar pool players, but what I guess is a level or two above that. When you're in a situation like me, it's nearly impossible to have a team of friends

playing together without either sandbagging or having to break up your team. I don't mean to sound like an elitist because I'm often the worse player on my team or in my circle of friends. If pool is not an important part of your life

and your circle of friends extends out of the pool world, it's probably fine for you. If you're in my boat, it isn't! Nuff said!

very well said brother....I understand 100% where your coming from....some friends want me to join as I type this...and for some of the same as you and my own, I won't be playing....

I like how you talked about levels....it really does depend on your involvement in the game as to how you view them.....

-keeb'

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

APA threads are the best.....to hone your typing skills.

In all fairness, the APA is great.....for people who play pool not pool players. It is by no means fair and never will be. It is a way for friends to get together or meet new friends and play pool on paper and have a good time. If everyone would realize that there is almost zero financial gain to be made they would be better off. I know lot's and lot's of people who think there is some pot of gold at the end of the "trip to vegas rainbow" and that is not the case. It's sad to see legitiment low skill level players get up there and get tortured by someone of the same paper pool skill level. I am by no means a "player", decent at best and one of the last time's I played in Vegas I got beat 19 to 1 in the team 9 ball tournament by someone of the same skill level on paper. Those handicaps are so far off its not even a joke anymore. I also played people in Vegas and locally who couldnt spell pool if you spotted them the P and the L. Sometime's they are 4s 5s and in some case's 6s. A lot of it has to do with playing under pressure and there are a ton of good players who cant handle it for one reason or another. The very last time we played out there we played a team who had a 4 that was the best player on the team. This was according to the team itself which had seveal 5s 6s and a 7. It was kind of funny because everytime one of them made a ball the team would say "get money".....im sure everyone else found it annoying because it actually was.

Getting back to the handicap's, I played in an APA state tourny several years ago and never lost a match in 2 days and never got raised. It was a 4s 5s and 6s and I must have heard everyone in the building complain at one time or another, not because they lost but because they lost to someone who played as a 5 the whole time. When people ask why I didnt get raised I said because I lost for almost 2 years straight. I ended up losing to a moron who played his carrer match then dogged his brains out right afterwards. It's funny how when you get beat like a drum on paper then you ask someone to play even a $10 set afterwards they act like you are trying to steal from them. It has never been a secret about sandbagging, dumping etc and the best part is when you beat someone who has done it all their lives and then they get mad. People can say that all the sandbagger's in the league give it a bad rep and that may be the case but until they find s sure way to make it fair it will continue.

This is just my two cent's on the matter and I have a whole piggy bank left on the subject. There have been just as many APA threads as there has threads about aiming so maybe the next APA thread can be about the funny experience's people have encountered over the year's.

 

[ridinda9]

Lance Link (among other "payback" bashers)...You all just don't GET IT. The APA was never intended to be a payback league...not 30 years ago, and not now. If the LO chooses to payback more than sending teams to Vegas, good for them...but this nonsense about "I only got paid back $50 for a whole session" is absolute baloney. You don't play APA to make money, plain and simple. If you do, you're in the wrong place, for the wrong reason. As said several times...it's about recreation. Do you expect to be paid back for going to the movies? How about a concert?...watching a baseball or football game?
We pay to be entertained...and don't EXPECT a refund. That's the real truth about the APA too. Now...that said, imo the APA could put another million or two dollars annually into the national event prize pool very easily. APA corporate is really the one making the huge profit. Some LO's do quite well, and imo, deserve it for all the hard work, whining from the players, and handling all the BS that many of these posts are about. Yes there are some poor LO's...there are in any league organization...but it's not MOST of them. There are plenty of crybabies and cheaters in other leagues too...it's not only in the APA.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You say the APA was "never intended to be a payback league . . .not 30 years ago , and not now . . ."
Yet that is exactly what the APA is implying in it's advertisements to lure new players in .
"OVER $1,000,000 IN PRIZES!" blare their posters . Is not the potential of the cash payday the hook they use to lure in new players ?
"Everyone can play , & anyone can win!"
Sounds just like the lottery . . . .
Maybe the National Office and the Local LO's never intended it to payback , but that's not the way they represent it in advertising to hook the Newbies .
Yep , us jaded old hands at this know better , but how long did it take for us to become jaded and realize how the league truly operates?

 

[ridinda9]

We had a player on our team who was a SL7 all year, paid his dues and played up until we had to play against his pet team, from his bar when the LO declared he was a "pro" and was disqualified. I called St. Louis and talked to Larry Hubbart myself and Larry said he knew the player and he was a "top flight amateur" (his words) and was eligible. The LO said "HE WAS RUNNING THE STATE TOURNAMENT NOT LARRY HUBBART" and if we wanted to continue, we would play without our "top flight amateur" or we would forfeit! I called St. Louis again and Larry Hubbart said that the LO had the final say on the subject, that he was in fact running the tournament, not St. Louis. We ended up losing by one game due to this ruling .


In the city tournament we had to forfeit the last match again and I had to play a guy, who I happen to like very much, but I had to spot him 1 game even though he played professionally.

Always thought the Official Team Manual contained the statement "the APA is the highest authority". Maybe they have no authority ?
That brings up another whole issue with the APA . They state that they are an "amateur" league , and professional players are not allowed .
This would be absolutely fair and fine , if it was applied equally across the board . But they have no intention of applying it equally across the board .
Go to the APA's own website . There is a section for "pool instruction by Tina Pawlowski" . It then gives a brief bio of Tina as a "touring professional" who gave up the tour , and returned to San Diego , where she competes in her local league as an s/l 7. So the APA is aware that she is a professional , but allows and even endorses her competing ? Am I reading the "no professional players" rule wrong ? Or is it just another APA rule which they can apply selectively ?

 

[Scott Lee]

My comments are directed at those APA league players who think they should get local payback, not winning prize money at the national events. Remember, most of the complaints seem to be directed at the local LO, who "steals" all the weekly money and doesn't pay anything back to the players (which, for the most part, is incorrect). Speaking from that perspective, what I said is 100% correct. Some APA LO's pay back tens of thousands of dollars back to their players, exclusive of trips to the nationals. Others don't. Either way, when I became an LO, the national office stressed that the APA was NOT a payback league (although each LO is free to do whatever they choose).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You say the APA was "never intended to be a payback league . . .not 30 years ago , and not now . . ."
Yet that is exactly what the APA is implying in it's advertisements to lure new players in .
"OVER $1,000,000 IN PRIZES!" blare their posters . Is not the potential of the cash payday the hook they use to lure in new players ?
"Everyone can play , & anyone can win!"
Sounds just like the lottery . . . .
Maybe the National Office and the Local LO's never intended it to payback , but that's not the way they represent it in advertising to hook the Newbies .
Yep , us jaded old hands at this know better , but how long did it take for us to become jaded and realize how the league truly operates?