What is missing in Cuemaking

[TATE]

Just in case you don't know.

I spend just as much time thinking about playability as I do about design.

In 1968 Danny and I were the first to core a cue. Coring produces a stronger, straighter more consistent playing cue. It is the standard today and most cuemakers core their cues.

In the early eighties Dan and I were the first cuemakers to use CNC. It may surprise you to know that CNC is used to turn cues and parts of cues to produce a more consistent and better playing cue. It not just for inlays and art work.

I developed the 3/8-10, the Unilok and the Radial pins that are the industry standards. I gave them their names.

I was the first cuemaker to use piezo electric damping to eliminate vibration and produce a better playing cue. I also developed the Smartshaft.

The list of innovation in cuemaking runs to 2 pages so I will not post anymore here.

I work every day to find new engineering techniques to inprove the way cues play. I also play pretty well and can evaluate any cue myself but I personally think cues are more than just how they play.

You are entitled to you opinion but next time try to get your facts straight.

Bill Stroud

I appreciate the quality and durability of your construction too. My JW has an ivory joint, buttcap, and ferrules and there have been a number of times the cue has been dropped or banged where I am appreciative of the techniques you use (which you explained to me) to make the ivory more durable. It has not chipped or cracked where I think other cues would have.

Chris

 

[Hierovision]

You are entitled to you opinion but next time try to get your facts straight.

Bill Stroud

Bill, I believe he was saying that both Stradivarius violins and Josswest cues play beautifully, and that is the most important variable. He is saying the fact that they are beautiful pieces of artwork comes second to the function.

I believe you share the same belief there, but you're taking it further and saying that once a cuemaker has mastered the construction and execution, they should focus on innovating the artistic aspect of their cues.

 

[qbilder]

Have cuemakers ever thought of doing a joint effort on a cue with what you are saying? If one does really well on the artistic side, but is soso on the cuemaking aspect of it, and the other does really well on the cue making but isn't very creative from an artistic standpoint?? Or is that a bad idea? Do egos get in the way of wanting to be in control of the whole build/design process, or are there problems deciding on how to split the money etc?

I did that with Wes Hunter on a cue. It had nothing to do with who was artistic or who built good playing cues. It was a cooperative effort to utilize the aspects we both felt were our strong points as builders. We were able to do that because we are close friends and there's no ego or competitiveness between us. But in the big scheme of things I think there would be too much competitiveness & pride for cuemakers to work together on things like that. And it would be very tough because a lot of design aspects are part of the structural build. I personally wouldn't be opposed to it. I like the idea of working together to serve a greater purpose.

 

[Fieldhammer]

In 2008, I hired an artist to come up with 12 new cue designs that might be made by an excellent cue maker for under $1,500. After showing the designs to many players, I didn't have the heart to move forward and build prototypes because I feared they wouldn't sell.

Here are two examples from the dozen designs.

Name: McQueen

Name: Tribal

 

[HollyWood]

The wrap area

I see no reason why the wrap area couldn't be used in an artistic way. Bem front and Butt- with many colors used in the wrap and sealed over. Red ,gold,blue- others. There is a name for this type of painting,where 1 color comes through ,the next layer comes through. While in Paris some painted blk and white only. Others used pastel colors to get points across. And then use your Finnish right over the art work. Using exotic woods in the handle - like how ivory was used to make segmented handles. I see some have incorporated the points well into the handle area. mark

 

[Ratta]

Hi there,

i m no cuemaker- but know some guys. And i think i understand what Bill tried to ask and show up in this thread.
But i am very sure that some customers are also not answering seriously (no offense!!)- from my opinion many many customers/players would spend much more money on a cue if they COULD- and so they re makin comprises on their custom cue, like saying then-i don t need such a design etc. , i just want this and that...and so on. If they wouldn t have to have a look at their money imo there would be many customers who would let the cuemaker *just make* and help them with the design.

jmho,

Ingo

 

[book collector]

What Is Missing In Cuemaking

Thanks again Mr. Stroud, I have been thinking about how much I have wanted one of those Marquetry Cues for 15 or 20 years now. I decided to try to do something about it. I am going to work on it myself, I may never figure it out but I think half the fun will be learning how to do it. I did a little research and there is some basic information to get started but I have a feeling it will be mostly trial and error. I am too old to be the next generation of cuemakers but I am having fun just thinking about it.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Good post. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it is nice to see someone with an eye for letting the wood speak. I do believe that is someone with an eye for the art design side of it. A true artist knows about concepts of color, lighting, balance, symmetry or asymmetry, and other key points that leave the rest of us saying great cue. I'm not sure there needs to be a cut on the word traditional, but still there is plenty of design room within traditional.

 

[tshughes]

Hi there,

i m no cuemaker- but know some guys. And i think i understand what Bill tried to ask and show up in this thread.
But i am very sure that some customers are also not answering seriously (no offense!!)- from my opinion many many customers/players would spend much more money on a cue if they COULD- and so they re makin comprises on their custom cue, like saying then-i don t need such a design etc. , i just want this and that...and so on. If they wouldn t have to have a look at their money imo there would be many customers who would let the cuemaker *just make* and help them with the design.

jmho,

Ingo

I agree, I think that most customers...(the mass) are just average working people who love the game of pool. They will spend money to get a better playing cue, but have other things in life that come before dropping thousands on one. These being bills, kids, etc. So I think that is one reason you do not see customers ask for more elaborate designs.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Rep to Ratta and tshughes.

At the end of the day, pool, by in large, is a game played by blue collar people making blue collar money. Their cues typically are in the range of hundreds, not thousands of dollars.

And I've been beaten real good by some of them. :wink:

Best,
Brian kc

 

[bstroud]

Thanks again Mr. Stroud, I have been thinking about how much I have wanted one of those Marquetry Cues for 15 or 20 years now. I decided to try to do something about it. I am going to work on it myself, I may never figure it out but I think half the fun will be learning how to do it. I did a little research and there is some basic information to get started but I have a feeling it will be mostly trial and error. I am too old to be the next generation of cuemakers but I am having fun just thinking about it.

I have been working on just this technique. It involves cutting from the flat sheet and then wrapping the material into an exact pocket on the cue. The math is more complicated than I would have thought. I can bend ivory and veneer without a problem but doing the design work is taking a lot of time.
I will have it down soon.

Bill Stroud

 

[bstroud]

In 2008, I hired an artist to come up with 12 new cue designs that might be made by an excellent cue maker for under $1,500. After showing the designs to many players, I didn't have the heart to move forward and build prototypes because I feared they wouldn't sell.

Mike,

" If you build it, they will come" pretty good quote for a movie.

The only way to know for sure is to build it.

At the cue show last year in Santa Fe I took all new 4-axis designs that had never been done before. All elaborate and expensive. I had no idea if they would sell but I felt the designs were good and needed to be built. Guess what? The all sold.

I like the designs you posted. Not easy to make but interesting. The lower design could be beautiful with a little more work to the front.

Bill Stroud

 

[ratcues]

Bill,

Who do you feel is currently pushing the envelope?

Are there any cues that you have recently been impressed with?

Thanks.
Ryan

 

[bstroud]

Bill,

Who do you feel is currently pushing the envelope?

Are there any cues that you have recently been impressed with?

Thanks.
Ryan

Ryan,

I is not so much who as how. What I would like to see in new cue design is more thought in the design process itself.

I was talking with McWorter the other day and he was attempting a new design. Attempting is the correct word because like me, he spends uncounted hours conceiving of and refining a new design.

For every 20 designs ideas you might get one good one if you are lucky.

From the very begining as a cuemaker I have always tried to intergrate the cue design into a coherent whole. When I started cuemaking most cues were a patchwork on no agreeing colors and mismatching rings with a few diamonds and dots. I made a lot of these myself but I always tried to at least have the rear of the cue match the front.

With today's software and CNC the task of designing cues has become much harder, not easier. A paper sketch that would have worked in the old days now has to be moved to the computer and that requires much more time. You can not simply pick up an eraser and change the design. Every change require a tremendous amount of time and effort. That explains why so many designs look incomplete. The designer runs of of patience or gets bored working on the design.

A cuemaker really can not get paid for a good design unless he uses it more than once. I try not to do that. It is a personal choice. I get bored making the same design twice. It is the chase for a great design that inspires me.

You asked about other cuemakers. I think that McWorter, Chudy, Wayne, Drexler and a few others pursue design as a principle element of their cuemaking. I wish there were more. I also think that some of the makers doing some of the complicated butterfly designs fall in the same catagory.

Perhaps on day there will be an artist that understands the difficulties of cumaking but also has formal art training, that can produce some designs that are clearly beautiful and new.

Bill Stroud

 

[Rak9up]

Just in case you don't know.

I spend just as much time thinking about playability as I do about design.

The list of innovation in cuemaking runs to 2 pages so I will not post anymore here.

I work every day to find new engineering techniques to inprove the way cues play. I also play pretty well and can evaluate any cue myself but I personally think cues are more than just how they play.

You are entitled to you opinion but next time try to get your facts straight.

Bill Stroud

Bill,

I'm more than aware of your accomplishments. I didn't mean to get you so defensive. As for my respect for you there was a Cuemakers trade show a few years ago here in Florida. Not one day was it ever opened to the public how stupid is that. Just distributors and cuemakers.
I pulled alot of strings to get in...not to get deal on a cue but to meet and speak with YOU and the other cuemakers I respect.

I work on rockets and we get better and better space age materials everyday. I try and share improvements that I see with cuemakers like adding micro beads for a perfect glue bondline.
I don't care if a plumber or school teacher has an idea that improves a cues playability anyone could have something to offer. Its not all on your shoulders.

If you asked a golfer if he would like to golf club companies spend time
adding points and inlays to a three wood or make it hit 10 yards further.
I bet the majority thinks adding art is a waste of time.

It's like Donald Trump's wife getting a job to help out with money...............now we have ten billion and 2 dollars.

It's like Donald Trump's wife going to art school to help out with cue design...............now we have ten billion and 2 cue designs

Art can only different....playability can always be improved

Yes its my opinion....I would like to see cuemakers spending their time trying to make a cue draw 2 more diamonds or adding 10 mph to break speed or improving control cueball control or.....the list is endless.

Finding a way to transfer the Mona Lisa onto a cue seems like its lowest on the list of priorities.

Yes we need out of the box thinking ideas can come form anywhere but concentrate on whats important

 

[Jerry Yost]

Cue art

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this post because it is all based off the notion that cuemaking is "a combination of art and craft". While for some cuemakers/cue lovers this is true, its important to note that this sentiment is just an opinion. The first sentence of the post above needs to be revised to read that cuemaking CAN BE a combination of art and craft. But the two are not necessarily married by definition.

For some, cuemaking and art go hand in hand. For others, the artistic side is either a bonus or a non-factor all together. And frankly, that's as it should be. For many, it is important to note that cuemaking should be a mariage between FUNCTION and craft. If there are those who wish to add art into the mix, so be it. But to imply that art is a necessary element of a cue is, in my opinion, nothing more than personal preference.

Completely agree...I'm in the same camp!

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Never forget where you came from. ...

Well, yes, but if you want to get ahead in the world, don't stay there.

Points? I don't collect fancy cues, but I'd think that for a cue maker who's got a lick of artist in him, points would be like asking a top chef to do mashed potatoes. But if the customer orders pot roast and mashed, what are you going to do? Maybe add a little wasabi to the mashed.

I used to collect stamps, and I got pretty excited about slightly different color variations in the early postage due issues. I'm not proud of it, and I've gotten over it -- there it is. But points?

Sometimes people ask to see my cue, which has four standard points with veneers and eight mother-of-pearl diamond-shaped inlays. (In the interest of full disclosure, it has two Stroud shafts, regular and masse.) They will remark how beautiful it is. For a cue with points? Perhaps they have never seen really artistic cue work or they're just being polite.

 

[mia]

Mia,

You present powerful arguments, no question.

I view cuemaking as both an art form and a craft. If all one wanted is function there are many cheap imported cues to choose from. Buying a custom cue is a more personal experience than that for most people. I often have long conversations with my customers to determine what it is they really want. If it is only function, I ask them to go elsewhere because I do not represent good value for their money.

I personally think custom cuemaking is more than just function. It is an attempt on the cuemakers part to assist and fulfill the customers expectations on a higher level. To me a good playing functional cue is a given. I could build that in my sleep. The real challenge is to produce a combination of function/craft/art that exceeds the customers expectation.
To that end I spend hours of design time trying to find the perfect balance between materials, design and price. Many times the price simply doesn't matter. I would rather complete the cue at the agreed on price than compromise the design. I know this is a luxury that I have and others do not.

What I am trying to accomplish with this thread is to wake up some of the cuemakers and let them realize that they can do more. The public will respond positively. Give them a chance. Try something new. If it fails, try something else.

Cuemakers can not just sit on their hands thinking that what they are currently doing is enough. It's time to move beyond the relative safety of "traditional" and think "what's next".

Bill Stroud

I certainly understand where you're coming from. I guess my only real 'problem' (for lack of a better term) with what you're saying is that your argument is based of the presupposition that most people share your views on cues and the role of art in cuemaking. You say that buying a custom cue is a more personal exeprience for most people and, while I agree that you are right about that, I'm not sure art is something that matters to most cue buyers. I would say that the majority of cue buyers out there are more interested in the play of the cue, the name of the person who made it, and perhaps a few other details as well. I would tend to doubt that artistic expression is a concern of most people buying a custom cue.

Sure there are a slew of people who have pushed the envelope and shown many that cues don't have to be just points and diamonds, yourself being one of them. Thomas Wayne being another. Richard Black, Bob Manzino, Jim Stadum, Joe Hercek (and the list goes on) :grin:. Your contributions to the cue community are unparalleled and have dropped jaws time and time again. Cuemakers like these, who push the envelope of design and marry function and art with craft will (hopefully) always be ever-present in the cue world. And their contributions will continue to astound many. Still, there is a place for 'traditional in the cue world. And, for better or worse, its place is at the forefront of the cue world. Not every cuemaker considers themselves an artist. Not every cuemaker cares to be artistic. And the plain truth is, not every customer cares about artistic expression in the design of their cues. I would guess the majority of them don't.

The presence of art in cues is a truly valuable and wonderful thing. But to expect that MOST cuemakers as well as cuebuyers change their views of the role art plays in their craft is just not reasonable. Sure, there are a TON of cuemakers out there who may default to the notion that 'I do traditional cues because I like the look' when the reality is, they do traditional cues because its all they are capable of. Still, there are numerous cuemakers out there who take traditional and add their own influences/twists to make a style that is 'theirs'. Furthermore, there are scores of people out there who pay these guys to make them 4 pointers, 6 pointers, box cues, notched diamonds, etc. because they have no desire to commision a work of art. And the reality is, if you're looking for function over form, production cues aren't always the best answer.

 

[bstroud]

Bill,

I'm more than aware of your accomplishments. I didn't mean to get you so defensive. As for my respect for you there was a Cuemakers trade show a few years ago here in Florida. Not one day was it ever opened to the public how stupid is that. Just distributors and cuemakers.

<If you are referring to the collectors show in Palm Beach, it was open to the public on Saturday afternoon.> Sorry you didn't realize it.

I pulled alot of strings to get in...not to get deal on a cue but to meet and speak with YOU and the other cuemakers I respect.

I work on rockets and we get better and better space age materials everyday. I try and share improvements that I see with cuemakers like adding micro beads for a perfect glue bondline.
I don't care if a plumber or school teacher has an idea that improves a cues playability anyone could have something to offer. Its not all on your shoulders.

<Why not just build the same rocket over and over. There's no art in Rocket Science? Right>

If you asked a golfer if he would like to golf club companies spend time
adding points and inlays to a three wood or make it hit 10 yards further.
I bet the majority thinks adding art is a waste of time.

<I guess from your perspective the art of materials and the art of aerodynamics really doesn't matter?>

It's like Donald Trump's wife getting a job to help out with money...............now we have ten billion and 2 dollars.

It's like Donald Trump's wife going to art school to help out with cue design...............now we have ten billion and 2 cue designs

Art can only different....playability can always be improved

<Art is not just different. It affects the mind in a way that function seldom does. When function does approach elegance it can also become art.>

Yes its my opinion....I would like to see cuemakers spending their time trying to make a cue draw 2 more diamonds or adding 10 mph to break speed or improving control cueball control or.....the list is endless.

<Want to play better? Practice, practice, practice is the answer.>

Bill Stroud

 

[Bob Callahan]

Sometimes people ask to see my cue, which has four standard points with veneers and eight mother-of-pearl diamond-shaped inlays. (In the interest of full disclosure, it has two Stroud shafts, regular and masse.) They will remark how beautiful it is. For a cue with points? Perhaps they have never seen really artistic cue work or they're just being polite.

What happened to the Balabushka with the skinny little 10.5mm shaft? Am I remembering wrong? :grin-square: