CTE/ PRO ONE with Stan Shuffett

[mikepage]

Why would this disappoint you Mike? Because I want to see a good man who worked hard to develop and define a marketable product to profit from his work or at least make his money back on an expensive video that he created.

Do you want to see this opportunity stripped from his hands? If so, this REALLY disappoints me.

You've had a good career in your chosen profession and are enjoying the fruits of your labor in a new business enterprise and I am thrilled for you and your success and if someone attempted to steal and copy your signature design pub and pool room I would be the first one to condemn the thief.

Why don't you tell me how you can justify having this man's work flaunted before the public before he even has a chance to make his money back on the cost of the video, LET ALONE MAKE A PROFIT?

Joey -

If Stan has useful or interesting information on his DVD, people will buy it.

There are many people right on this forum that have claimed they can't wait for the opportunity to buy the DVD. I'm sure he will sell plenty of them.

To me this discussion forum is about the free flow of information. If Stan wants his information to be kept secret, then he shouldn't publish it and offer it to the public. Instead he should dole it out privately to folks that sign confidentiality agreements.

You talk about morality. Sharing what I know is and always has been a core part of my moral code Joey.

 

[JoeyA]

I am curious JoeyA, if the product (DVD) is only as good as being nothing more than an introduction to the aiming method, and you suggest the DVD does tell 'secrets' BUT, begs of having an instructor to really explain the system, fully.

Why are you so worried about someone spreading the word? Wouldn't that just mean that Stan will have more business selling the DVDs and also have more customers learning from him with lessons?

I fail to see the loss Stan would have. In fact, for all the DVDs he sells, it is more like an advertisement for "lessons form Stan". Wonderful idea, have players give him money up front for the DVD that leads to lessons.


BTW, Thanks for the review.

Tom,
I haven't seen the final draft of Stan Shuffett's CTE/Pro One video so I don't know what all will be in it.

My personal interest was to have Stan give me a one one one lesson in CTE/Pro One. I viewed the first draft video after I was exhausted from a long day of travel and work and the video seemed to follow the lesson from what I remember.

I believe a person can learn CTE/Pro One from Stan's video if he applies the principles detailed in the video.

I've been familiar with CTE for many years but didn't really "get it" until Stan showed it to me in person. Keep in mind, I've never seen a video on CTE aiming either.

Now, a small number of people think it's just fine to elaborate about the details of CTE/Pro One in this public forum, BEFORE THE MAN EVEN HAS A CHANCE TO MAKE HIS EXPENSES BACK.

That's gratitude and respect for your fellow man.

I'm sick of all this bickering, needling and mean-spirited comments that are becoming part of this forum's personality.

(Your comments don't fit the above statement, btw)

 

[JoeyA]

Joey -

If Stan has useful or interesting information on his DVD, people will buy it.

There are many people right on this forum that have claimed they can't wait for the opportunity to buy the DVD. I'm sure he will sell plenty of them.

To me this discussion forum is about the free flow of information. If Stan wants his information to be kept secret, then he shouldn't publish it and offer it to the public. Instead he should dole it out privately to folks that sign confidentiality agreements.

You talk about morality. Sharing what I know is and always has been a core part of my moral code Joey.

Yeah, I guess the old saying "It all depends on whose ox is getting gored" is pretty appropriate about the morality issue.

You wouldn't like it if one of your employees copied every aspect of Fargo Billiards and went out and set up shop down the street or simply shared that information with someone else.

The man is trying to make a living. Really, Mike.... you don't get that? You don't respect that?

 

[RShellhouse]

I am not wearing flame retardant undies so please refrain but doesn't Hal GIVE this information away ?

If Stan's dvd is a refinement of Hal's formulas ( something else I have yet to understand) then I am confused...which usually is what happens in one of the CTE threads.

I saw examples of Capelle's books before buying one...and now own 5 and have recommended them to numerous friends who have bought them.

I get the impression I am buying one of those grab bags...what's in it might be worth the 5 bucks or it could be a bag of fake poop...I will have no problem buying, recommending, talking about said dvd...but do buy it with the least amount of information possible..well i have a hard time doing that.

So to me...a example or explanation (i can understand) makes a huge difference in my buying decision....a review going this is great...it works for me...its the supercalifradjilistic bestest thing in the world...trust me...without any examples (other than it works) tends to make me hesitant...

R

 

[GetMeThere]

I think what you (and others) are really sick of, Joey, is the continued insistence (especially by me) that challenges to assertions made about CTE actually be ANSWERED.

If people have a "right" to publish and make money from CTE, then I'll continue to express my right to CHALLENGE the fundamental underpinnings of CTE.

The easiest way to shut me up is to adequately ADDRESS my challenges. I can only assume, by the absence of meaningful and direct responses by the CTE crowd, that they don't WANT to shut me up.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yeah, I guess the old saying "It all depends on whose ox is getting gored" is pretty appropriate about the morality issue.

You wouldn't like it if one of your employees copied every aspect of Fargo Billiards and went out and set up shop down the street or simply shared that information with someone else.

The man is trying to make a living. Really, Mike.... you don't get that? You don't respect that?

If I was a millionaire and built a poolhall down the street from the gastropub and gave away free table time and soda--- he'd sh!t his heart out and there'd be a different tune being whistled.

I hope other pool instructors who are considering investing money into DVD production read this thread and consider all aspects of doing so. I wonder how much of their hard-worked material will end up getting pasted underneath Dr. Dave's mocking section.

I think I'm gonna copy/paste Dr. Dave's entire website and just re-structure the copy and create a Dr. Spidey site. Nothing on there is copyrightable either. Maybe that's the solution--- just start pirating everyone else's material as well and create one MEGA site. Spidey's Billiard Information Emporium. I like the sound of that

Dave

 

[eezbank]

If I was a millionaire and built a poolhall down the street from the gastropub and gave away free table time and soda--- he'd sh!t his heart out and there'd be a different tune being whistled.

I hope other pool instructors who are considering investing money into DVD production read this thread and consider all aspects of doing so. I wonder how much of their hard-worked material will end up getting pasted underneath Dr. Dave's mocking section.

I think I'm gonna copy/paste Dr. Dave's entire website and just re-structure the copy and create a Dr. Spidey site. Nothing on there is copyrightable either. Maybe that's the solution--- just start pirating everyone else's material as well and create one MEGA site. Spidey's Billiard Information Emporium. I like the sound of that

Dave

If you do decide to go that route I have some ideas for the mocking section :grin:

 

[GetMeThere]

If I was a millionaire and built a poolhall down the street from the gastropub and gave away free table time and soda--- he'd sh!t his heart out and there'd be a different tune being whistled.

I hope other pool instructors who are considering investing money into DVD production read this thread and consider all aspects of doing so. I wonder how much of their hard-worked material will end up getting pasted underneath Dr. Dave's mocking section.

I think I'm gonna copy/paste Dr. Dave's entire website and just re-structure the copy and create a Dr. Spidey site. Nothing on there is copyrightable either. Maybe that's the solution--- just start pirating everyone else's material as well and create one MEGA site. Spidey's Billiard Information Emporium. I like the sound of that

Dave

What childish nonsense. You seem to know nothing about business; and you seem to not clearly understand the consistent ethics of Dr. Dave's site, either: he gives FULL AND ACCURATE attribution for anything used on his site. What you (jokingly) refer to doing would be to NOT acknowledge that it was Dr. Dave's material you copied (obviously, because you wouldn't be taking the eaiser route of simply linking to his site).

On a less childish level than your point deserves, your analogy fails because:

1) I don't intend to use Stan's DVD information to turn myself into a CTE instructor (the failure of your Mike analogy)

2) I don't intend to sell or pass off Stan's information as my own (the failure of your Dr. Dave analogy).

 

[irock]

JoeyA, you are exactly right about Stan's video. I lot of us on here are very intersted in it, and he is also pricing it at a very fair price. It would be very unfair for anyone to post the info he has worked so hard on, he deserves to make a little $ on it. I would hate to see it happen, but I would not blame Stan at all, if he pulled the plug on the whole thing, after reading some of these posts.

 

[mikepage]

If I was a millionaire and built a poolhall down the street from the gastropub and gave away free table time and soda--- he'd sh!t his heart out and there'd be a different tune being whistled.

This would be an appropriate time, Dave, to point out that you asked me for information from my business plan for Fargo Billiards & Gastropub when I was starting up

.. and to point out that I was happy to send you a lot of stuff, including the table of contents, the executive summary, and the business description including the floorplan...

I hope other pool instructors who are considering investing money into DVD production read this thread and consider all aspects of doing so.

Every other person in the history of the universe who has chosen to publish ANYTHING has opened it up to public response. This idea of publishing it and keeping it secret at the same time is a bizzareness that is unique to this discussion.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This would be an appropriate time, Dave, to point out that you asked me for information from my business plan for Fargo Billiards & Gastropub when I was starting up

.. and to point out that I was happy to send you a lot of stuff, including the table of contents, the executive summary, and the business description including the floorplan...




Every other person in the history of the universe who has chosen to publish ANYTHING has opened it up to public response. This idea of publishing it and keeping it secret at the same time is a bizzareness that is unique to this discussion.

I asked you on behalf of a friend who was too shy to ask you. You were nice enough to send your table of contents--- thanks for that.

You're missing the point completely.

I'll leave it at this, if Dr. Dave posts enough info from the DVD to the point where no one has to buy the DVD, I'll do the same to his VEPS and his entire site---- since keeping info secret is bizarre.

 

[GetMeThere]

I asked you on behalf of a friend who was too shy to ask you. You were nice enough to send your table of contents--- thanks for that.

You're missing the point completely.

I'll leave it at this, if Dr. Dave posts enough info from the DVD to the point where no one has to buy the DVD, I'll do the same to his VEPS and his entire site---- since keeping info secret is bizarre.

No. I think everyone gets the point: Unless people do what you tell them to do, you're ready to take any destructive action you feel like taking.

Yeah, we get it.

And you have to ask why I prefer to keep my identity private?

 

[JoeyA]

JoeyA, you are exactly right about Stan's video. I lot of us on here are very intersted in it, and he is also pricing it at a very fair price. It would be very unfair for anyone to post the info he has worked so hard on, he deserves to make a little $ on it. I would hate to see it happen, but I would not blame Stan at all, if he pulled the plug on the whole thing, after reading some of these posts.

I wouldn't blame him for pulling the plug but he has already spent an enormous amount of money for production, editing etc, not counting his countless hours in development.

Dr. Dave thinks that his "humor" in mocking what I know about CTE/Pro One is good for pool.

Dr. Dave uses material FROM OTHERS, legally obtained, to drive additional traffic to his website. Yes, it's legal, but you have to question someone's ethics who's making a profit from someone else's work.

Dr. Dave, GMT and Lou's AD HOMINEM ATTACKS on Stan, Spidey, myself and anyone else who happens to find value in CTE/Pro One are against forum rules and he continues just like Lou Figueroa to CLAIM that the ad hominem attacks are just fun times.

I've resisted the attempts by others to persuade me to see the attempts of a few to create disharmony in the forum. I prefer to see the good in people but their true colors of the instigators are shining through with every post.

These thinly veiled ATTACKS on well-respected members of this forum are a CANCER and it eating away at the very fabric of what makes this forum a decent place to visit.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

..... you're ready to take any destructive action you feel like taking.

I'd never do that unless Dr. Dave felt the need to post the exact contents of Stan's video. So, don't ruin a man's project unless you want your videos cataloged online as well.

I'm taking this stance because I'm getting a feeling people are ready to take Stan's video and plop it online.

So, don't expect to do that without the same happening to you in force.

That's all. To discuss bullet items, etc, is fine--- to outline all aspects to the point where someone doesn't have to buy the video is unacceptable.

Dave

 

[dr_dave]

if Dr. Dave posts enough info from the DVD to the point where no one has to buy the DVD, I'll do the same to his VEPS and his entire site

Spidey,

The value of VEPS and my website is not just the "information" ... the value is in how the "information" is presented and demonstrated. Many people and websites (some of which are listed here) link to and quote stuff from my website. However, they do not violate any Copyright laws or "trade secrets" in doing so. In fact, I feel honored by it.

Much of the "information" in VEPS has been openly shared and discussed. There is also nothing wrong with this. In fact, I welcome it.

I'm sure Stan's "information" will be shared and critiqued, but I doubt the "information" is the true value of the DVD. If it is, and the "information" can be summarized in just a few sentences and paragraphs, then I would question the "value" of the DVD.

BTW, feel free to attempt to summarize all of the "information" in my entire VEPS series. I can guarantee that it would not be easy; although, the result would be extremely useful. Actually, I've already started doing it with my recent series of articles for Billiards Digest. I've written thirteen articles so far, but I've barely scratched the surface. I think a complete summary of all of the "information" in VEPS would require a full set of encyclopedias (hence the name: Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots). But again, I don't consider the "information" the main value. The main value is in the "presentation." Information is not copyrightable ... but the "presentation" (the actual "video") is. If you try to illegally copy and profit from the "presentation" (i.e., the actual "video") then you have a legal problem, and I'll send Tom after you (he's the "muscle man" in the partnership).

Regards,
Dave

 

[GetMeThere]

I'd never do that unless Dr. Dave felt the need to post the exact contents of Stan's video.

And when did Dr. Dave post "the exact contents" of anybody's video--or "threaten" to do it, or even give any HINT that he would ever do any such thing? Never.

So why is it necessary to make threats against him?

 

[jmurphy]

I am sorry if these questions have already been answered but I don't have time right now to read through the entire thread.
I did email Stan inquiring about the video and he wrote back telling me that it was in the final editing stages.

1. Does anyone know the plan release date?
2. Cost of Pro1 DVD?
3. With out giving away trade secrets on Pro1 before the DVD is available I have a question on Pro1. Currently I use Ghost Ball w/BHE, if I learned the Pro1 aiming system would I still be able to use BHE to apply desired English on the cue ball?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

And when did Dr. Dave post "the exact contents" of anybody's video--or "threaten" to do it, or even give any HINT that he would ever do any such thing? Never.

So why is it necessary to make threats against him?

Not a threat. I just wanted to make it clear it's not OK to post every detail of Stan's information from his DVD onto Dr. Dave's site.

As they say, "Do unto others."

 

[GetMeThere]

I wouldn't blame him for pulling the plug but he has already spent an enormous amount of money for production, editing etc, not counting his countless hours in development.

Dr. Dave thinks that his "humor" in mocking what I know about CTE/Pro One is good for pool.

Dr. Dave uses material FROM OTHERS, legally obtained, to drive additional traffic to his website. Yes, it's legal, but you have to question someone's ethics who's making a profit from someone else's work.

Dr. Dave, GMT and Lou's AD HOMINEM ATTACKS on Stan, Spidey, myself and anyone else who happens to find value in CTE/Pro One are against forum rules and he continues just like Lou Figueroa to CLAIM that the ad hominem attacks are just fun times.

I've resisted the attempts by others to persuade me to see the attempts of a few to create disharmony in the forum. I prefer to see the good in people but their true colors of the instigators are shining through with every post.

These thinly veiled ATTACKS on well-respected members of this forum are a CANCER and it eating away at the very fabric of what makes this forum a decent place to visit.

To all that drivel I say, mostly, PHOOEY!

You're making a big drama out of nothing. I can hardly imagine why.

Your advice to Stan to withdraw the DVD (HA! so he apparently doesn't have to WORRY about recovering the expense to make it) is ridiculous: the MORE it's talked about on this forum the MORE DVDs he will sell--that's STRAIGHT OUT of the marketing handbook.

I certainly don't mind if Stan sells a million copies--Geez, the guy who sold PET ROCKS made a million bucks off it, right? It's a big world, and LOW VALUE CERTAINLY never stopped people from buying what they want to buy!

Why don't you take a pill and a steam bath, Joey, before you give yourself a stroke over this?

The final word is: IF ANYTHING, all the talk back and forth about CTE will INCREASE STAN'S SALES. You, as a marketer, should know that very well (and maybe that's why you're creating all this drama? I don't know).

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave thinks that his "humor" in mocking what I know about CTE/Pro One is good for pool.

Joey,

I don't think I have mocked what you know about CTE/Pro One. If I have, you deserve an apology. I have challenged mocked some outrageous claims and ridiculous statements made by CTE proponents (see the DAM intro paragraphs). I do think the outrageous claims and ridiculous statements are bad for pool, so I will most certainly continue to challenge and mock them.

Dr. Dave uses material FROM OTHERS, legally obtained, to drive additional traffic to his website. Yes, it's legal, but you have to question someone's ethics who's making a profit from someone else's work.

Tom and I are profiting off the sale of the instructional products offered on my commercial website (dr-dave-billiards.com), but I do not profit from my free, online, nonprofit, educational resource website (billiards.colostate.edu). In fact, I often turn down request for advertising because I want my educational resource site to remain non-commercial. Now, I can see how some people might decide to purchase my products after they benefit from my free online educational website. In this way, I do profit from the noncommercial site.

Regards,
Dave