From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:

[JoeyA]

While some say that Willie didn't learn from Ralph Greenleaf, the quote below contradicts that:

"Away from the table Ralph and I always were close friends, and he even displayed a fatherly interest in my career. But during our matches, particularly those I won, Greenleaf was a fierce and friendless cmpetitor. I learned much from him, including an intense desire to win."

 

[Rich93]

While some say that Willie didn't learn from Ralph Greenleaf, the quote below contradicts that:

"Away from the table Ralph and I always were close friends, and he even displayed a fatherly interest in my career. But during our matches, particularly those I won, Greenleaf was a fierce and friendless cmpetitor. I learned much from him, including an intense desire to win."

Willie talks about learning from Ralph in his autobiography, Willie's Game, particularly during the cross country tour they did together in 1933 or 1934. Ralph didn't give lessons or or act as a mentor. Willie learned by playing against him and observing what he did. If memory serves, Ralph played closer position than Willie did then, and Willie learned that he could do that too and improved his game. Ralph won 58 games to Willie's 50, but Willie was winning most of them toward the end.

 

[JoeyA]

Willie talks about learning from Ralph in his autobiography, Willie's Game, particularly during the cross country tour they did together in 1933 or 1934. Ralph didn't give lessons or or act as a mentor. Willie learned by playing against him and observing what he did. If memory serves, Ralph played closer position than Willie did then, and Willie learned that he could do that too and improved his game. Ralph won 58 games to Willie's 50, but Willie was winning most of them toward the end.

I've noticed that people's perspectives on who they learned from or how changes as they age.

I can't tell you how many players say that they are all self-taught when in fact everyone was mentored even if only for brief periods of time.

A lot of people don't remember the players who helped them along the way and convenient memories are the norm.

(Not arguing, just saying something that I have observed over the years).

For me, one day, I am going to sit down and right a list of the people and the things that they showed me along my journey including the ones I paid for and the ones I got pro bono. It will be a LONG, LONG list. :grin:

 

[Island Drive]

WOW!
Except for the break, that is tantamount to heresy.

That's a great find. I'm sorry I missed it. Props to you Island Drive. Please let us know how this affects your shooting.

I have seen some good players of todays generation that have some forward movement, sideward movement and upward movement so who is to say what is right or wrong.

As I thought it's bad information. It's way to difficult to control the amount of body movement needed or not needed during a shot, it's almost like Willie was giving bad information intentionally.

 

[pdcue]

PDcue, since you said you saw Willie play in person when he was younger, I am guessing you are an old timer. I have the utmost respect for people that are getting up there in age. All I am saying is that what Mosconi was doing in those videos fits the definition of a slip stroke. Lets just agree to disagree. Ok?

Trouble, right here in river city ...with details.

I said I saw him when *I* was younger.........

Perhaps your confusson is due to the fact that you have read the definition of a slip stroke, but never seen one. There are now at least
3 people in this thread alone who saw Willie play. And ALL 3 say he didn't
use a slip stroke.

A point to consider, that might help you understand. Players who use
a slip stroke, don't use it every 157th shot, they use it on virtually every shot.

A slip stroke is accomplished by sliding the hand backward during the
final backstroke, it is all done simultaneously, in ONE smooth, fluid motion.
Willie doesn't do that on any of the aforementioned videos.

Dale<whippersnapper at large>

 

[JoeyA]

As I thought it's bad information. It's way to difficult to control the amount of body movement needed or not needed during a shot, it's almost like Willie was giving bad information intentionally.

I don't know about Willie but we had a local, infamous and successful pool hustler that traveled quite a bit in years past and he made a habit of schooling young wannabees with bad information. He didn't much care what you figured out. He wanted to keep the up and coming players down, as long as he could but that was just this one particular player.

No need to mention his name or to ask.

Thanks for trying that out and providing your findings.
JoeyA

 

[jay helfert]

I played Willie in an exhibition match in San Diego in 1968-69, straight pool to 125. He did not use a slip-stroke.

I played him on the same tour in Los Angeles. I got to 19! How many did you get? He ran 134 on me and then gave me a couple of chances at open racks.
Sad thing I had a photo of me and Willie shaking hands across the table before that match. I carried it around with me for years. Then on one of my many moves I lost it. Bummer! :frown:
I couldn't say for sure if he had a slip stroke or not. All I remember was him playing perfect position shot after shot and making it look easy. If he got two inches out of line, he would make a very unhappy face. I remember that too.

 

[Rich93]

Trouble, right here in river city ...with details.

I said I saw him when *I* was younger.........

Perhaps your confusson is due to the fact that you have read the definition of a slip stroke, but never seen one. There are now at least
3 people in this thread alone who saw Willie play. And ALL 3 say he didn't
use a slip stroke.

A point to consider, that might help you understand. Players who use
a slip stroke, don't use it every 157th shot, they use it on virtually every shot.

A slip stroke is accomplished by sliding the hand backward during the
final backstroke, it is all done simultaneously, in ONE smooth, fluid motion.
Willie doesn't do that on any of the aforementioned videos.

Dale<whippersnapper at large>

I saw him too (maybe I'm one of the three?) and I have always taken the position that Willie did use a small slip stroke. However, I respect your opinion and Lou's and also I just got tired of arguing about it. Whether it's a slip stroke or merely repositioning his hand before the final back stroke, it is what it is and it sure worked for him.

I can say this with a fair amount of certainty - on all shots that he hit with authority he did it. In his 1980 video (the one where he runs two racks at the end) he's miked up. On most shots you can't see what he does with the hand because of camera position but I swear you can hear it - you can hear the sliding of his hand. I don't think it's my imagination. Now, in straight pool the way Willie played it most of the shots are short easy ones. I'm not saying he used it where he was just tapping the ball. But when he used a medium stroke or harder, you either see or hear the slip.

As I'm sure you do, I wish I could go back in time and see those exhibitions again. At DCC in the straight pool room you can sit so close to somebody running 100 balls that you worry you're crowding them. At Willie's exhibitions I was far away and in one was standing surrounded by giants (so it seemed - I'm vertically challenged, the one thing Willie and I have in common). I did watch his stroke as best I could and I didn't notice any slip then - the thing I noticed was that his wrist opened a lot on the final backstroke. My guess is that he was doing the same then that I've seen on later videos - the slip or repositioning, just a couple of inches.

 

[alstl]

I saw him too (maybe I'm one of the three?) and I have always taken the position that Willie did use a small slip stroke. However, I respect your opinion and Lou's and also I just got tired of arguing about it. Whether it's a slip stroke or merely repositioning his hand before the final back stroke, it is what it is and it sure worked for him.

I can say this with a fair amount of certainty - on all shots that he hit with authority he did it. In his 1980 video (the one where he runs two racks at the end) he's miked up. On most shots you can't see what he does with the hand because of camera position but I swear you can hear it - you can hear the sliding of his hand. I don't think it's my imagination. Now, in straight pool the way Willie played it most of the shots are short easy ones. I'm not saying he used it where he was just tapping the ball. But when he used a medium stroke or harder, you either see or hear the slip.

As I'm sure you do, I wish I could go back in time and see those exhibitions again. At DCC in the straight pool room you can sit so close to somebody running 100 balls that you worry you're crowding them. At Willie's exhibitions I was far away and in one was standing surrounded by giants (so it seemed - I'm vertically challenged, the one thing Willie and I have in common). I did watch his stroke as best I could and I didn't notice any slip then - the thing I noticed was that his wrist opened a lot on the final backstroke. My guess is that he was doing the same then that I've seen on later videos - the slip or repositioning, just a couple of inches.

Let's call it the reposition stroke.

 

[Island Drive]

Another factor, looks like Mosconi in this 1950's book used a willie hoppe cue stick. The cue butts on this line of cues had a much larger diameter than todays cue sticks thus allot of rearward weight. Willie in one of his pics was showing you where the balance point was and said to grip roughly 3-4'' behind the balance point, tho in his pictures he was actually holding the cue right at the balance point which was at the end of the wrap according to one of the pictures.

 

[pdcue]

I saw him too (maybe I'm one of the three?) and I have always taken the position that Willie did use a small slip stroke. However, I respect your opinion and Lou's and also I just got tired of arguing about it. Whether it's a slip stroke or merely repositioning his hand before the final back stroke, it is what it is and it sure worked for him.

I can say this with a fair amount of certainty - on all shots that he hit with authority he did it. In his 1980 video (the one where he runs two racks at the end) he's miked up. On most shots you can't see what he does with the hand because of camera position but I swear you can hear it - you can hear the sliding of his hand. I don't think it's my imagination. Now, in straight pool the way Willie played it most of the shots are short easy ones. I'm not saying he used it where he was just tapping the ball. But when he used a medium stroke or harder, you either see or hear the slip.

As I'm sure you do, I wish I could go back in time and see those exhibitions again. At DCC in the straight pool room you can sit so close to somebody running 100 balls that you worry you're crowding them. At Willie's exhibitions I was far away and in one was standing surrounded by giants (so it seemed - I'm vertically challenged, the one thing Willie and I have in common). I did watch his stroke as best I could and I didn't notice any slip then - the thing I noticed was that his wrist opened a lot on the final backstroke. My guess is that he was doing the same then that I've seen on later videos - the slip or repositioning, just a couple of inches.

I assume you are refering to his instructional video. I'm with alist
on this one. No one disputes that he moves his hand, it just isn't part
of the stroke.

Now back to the original point of JoeyA's thread.
If you slo-mo thru his break shots, you will see that he brings his elbow
so far down on his follow thru, that he actually has to push the cue
out away from his body to avoid bumping into it with his elbow.

That's right folks - he drops his elbow so far it ends up BELOW
the line of his cue.

FWIW - I have a video of Mez doing nearly the same thing - his elbow
is down by his beltline at the end of his stroke.

FWIW Part II - the late, legendary player, George Rood dropped his
elbow on nearly every shot. Granted, he was well past his prime by the
time I ever saw him play - but he had run 75 the previous week,
he was 79 at the time.

So maybe the, ahem, 'instructors' can cease preaching that dropping
the elbow is unorthodox.

Dale<who has been known to drop an elbow or two>

 

[pdcue]

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA

So I'm tryin' hard to steer this oceanliner back to the original subject...

Most of us are aware that you are a pretty sporty player your own self.
Certainly a ton better than I ever was.
So, how about you? Do you drop your elbow on follow thru?

Sometimes - most of the time - always - never?

Dale

 

[JoeyA]

So I'm tryin' hard to steer this oceanliner back to the original subject...

Most of us are aware that you are a pretty sporty player your own self.
Certainly a ton better than I ever was.
So, how about you? Do you drop your elbow on follow thru?

Sometimes - most of the time - always - never?

Dale

Sometimes Dal
I don't know how well I play or how well you play. i struggle like most players trying to have a respectable game, taking two steps forward and the next time one step back.

I drop my elbow sometimes. As I try to emulate John Brumback's stroke on banking, I find myself making a conscious effort to keep that cue stick very level and dropping the elbow is part of the equation.

The truth is that on many other shots I drop my elbow but it more of a natural dropping and sometimes I don't even pay attention to dropping my elbow. It just happens on some shots.

I think that elbow dropping provides more power and a more level cue stroke. (The question that begs answers is how does that help or hurt your playing).


On the other side of the fence, on LONG, STRAIGHT draw shots, I often DO NOT drop my elbow and make a conscious effort to do just the pendulum stroke. I "seem" to have more consistency in making the shot and drawing the ball is I use just the pendulum stroke.

On a lot of other shots where I need power I will often purposefully drop my elbow. The truth is that most of the time I do not pay attention to whether I drop my elbow.

I think one shouldn't pay attention to whether you drop your elbow or not and just let it happen naturally if it happens at all. The only time you should care whether you are dropping your elbow is if you are missing shots. Eliminate the elbow drop and see if you are still missing the shots. If you are still missing the shots after eliminating the elbow drop, it must be something else.

Pool is great. Just when you think you figured out the problem with your stroke, you discover that you're not hitting the center of the cue ball on most shots or some other such nonsense. LOL

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Trouble, right here in river city ...with details.

I said I saw him when *I* was younger.........

Perhaps your confusson is due to the fact that you have read the definition of a slip stroke, but never seen one. There are now at least
3 people in this thread alone who saw Willie play. And ALL 3 say he didn't
use a slip stroke.

A point to consider, that might help you understand. Players who use
a slip stroke, don't use it every 157th shot, they use it on virtually every shot.

A slip stroke is accomplished by sliding the hand backward during the
final backstroke, it is all done simultaneously, in ONE smooth, fluid motion.
Willie doesn't do that on any of the aforementioned videos.

Dale<whippersnapper at large>

My apologies. I thought you were an old man since your posts make you seem like a hard headed old fart.

I would also like to apologize for Willie Mosconi proving you wrong in his videos. I'm sure he didn't mean to make your heart slip a beat. Err I mean skip, sorry again.

 

[pdcue]

My apologies. I thought you were an old man since your posts make you seem like a hard headed old fart.

I would also like to apologize for Willie Mosconi proving you wrong in his videos. I'm sure he didn't mean to make your heart slip a beat. Err I mean skip, sorry again.

Did you see Elvis in any of those videos?

If only you were as clever as you think you are

My humble suggestion is you find someone to explain to you
what a slip stroke is.

Dale

 

[genomachino]

Has anyone ever heard of a book called the Answers to a pool players prayers. It was written by Richard Kraniki. He claims to have been good friends with Willie and wrote this book with info obtained from the great master. He also claims to be the only author to ever recieve consent of the Mosconi endorsement.

It looks like the book was written in 2000 at least that is when the copyright is.

This book is the best I've ever seen as far as trying to show how the eyes line up. He does a great job of showing where the eyes are sighting and where the alignment is but never really has the solution to the problem of trying to keep the eyes there.

I bought this book because a few AZers kind of hinted that this is where I got my info for Perfect Aim. I've been teaching Perfect aim for the last 20 years. It's just the last 2 years that I've made the video and have been teaching hundreds of players how this works.

Who knows, maybe Willie himself knew exactly what I teach with Perfect Aim. But I do know this that with his knowledge obviously from what's in the book, by knowing this alignment and really working at it any player that plays alot can get their eyes in the perfect position continually on all shots because they are close already. With repetition from hours of practice your aiming will get better alot quicker once a person totally understands how this works.

But the quickest solution would to be to learn Perfect Aim and you don't have to figure out or guess at anything. The answers are all there for you. And it does work for everyone that learns it and understands it.

I bought this book about 6 months ago to see for myself and was pleasantly surprised at the information.

Someday I hope to talk to Richard and see if Willie talked about any of the things I teach. I would like to see if Willie talked about what I teach and maybe wasn't clear enough about it to make sense of it in the book.

I know there are people on here that are going to jump all over this and say I'm trying to get free advertising and sell videos but it is what it is.

Those of you that have learned Perfect Aim and have read the book know exactly what I mean.

Perfect Aim would have been the final answer and chapter in this book. It would have been the Perfect ending for sure.

Have a great day geno.............

 

[JoeyA]

JoeyA

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Great thread here, thanks for bumping. Lots of great pool talk.

 

[Scott Lee]

It just goes to show you, that while Mosconi was a superior player, he knew nothing about teaching, nor about the physics of pool. That's not uncommon among several top pros of today. He also played with his grip hand ahead of perpendicular, which would require an elbow drop to complete the stroke. A pendulum stroke, with the grip hand directly underneath the elbow, at ball address, does not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Stroke short, level, smooth, soft and "through" the ball. A proper follow-through will send your cue straightthrough the area occupied by the cue ball before it was hit. As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE. The above statement is in direct contradiction to what is taught in many pool schools.

Another thing that I found amazing was Willie's recommendation for the distance between your two feet. In his book Winning Pocket Billiards which sold for $1.95 way back when, Willie states that your feet should never be more than 6 inches apart. That too flies in the face of most current instructors and players, imo, unless you are like 5'8" or shorter.

Length of bridge? 8". Back stroke length? 8" Follow through? 12". I'm assuming that he means 12" of follow through past the cue ball.

Willie even mentions that after the follow through, HIS CUE IS STILL LEVEL, with the tip not touching the table. I guess Willie Mosconi and John Brumback have something in common.

Willie further states on follow through shots, that you should aim ONE TIP above center. Don't lower the butt of the cue to do this, simply elevate your bridge hand. His follow through tip location diagram shows a FULL tip above where the center ball tip is located.

This book was published in 1965. Did you know he had two daughters Candice and Gloria?

Did you know that Willie and Ralph Greenleaf were GOOD FRIENDS?

Interesting reading, especially after a lifetime of playing and learning.

I may share more bits and pieces if anyone is interested.

JoeyA

 

[Cardigan Kid]

It just goes to show you, that while Mosconi was a superior player, he knew nothing about teaching, nor about the physics of pool. That's not uncommon among several top pros of today. He also played with his grip hand ahead of perpendicular, which would require an elbow drop to complete the stroke. A pendulum stroke, with the grip hand directly underneath the elbow, at ball address, does not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Excellent observation and spot on. Also he played more upright and not down on the cue as players today (or as Jersey Red did back in Mosconi era). Your cue naturally tips down when down on a shot as your shooting hand comes to your chest. If you were more upright like Mosconi, you would have to work extra to make the tip drop on follow through. So I can understand why he preached the tip should be parallel straight through the ball, whereas Mark Wilson in his book preached the tip finishing lower to table at proper follow through.