Superglue vs epoxy for ferrule install?

Vahmurka

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
We have always been using 5 min 2-part epoxy for installing ferrules (note the tenon is not threaded). Got me wondering if there would be changes, potentially negative, if we try superglue gel? Epoxy holds great, and plays good. Would superglue tend to crack because of hard hits, or maybe change the feel of the hit? Also please note most of the cues we deal with are for Russian Pyramid (hard hits of heavy balls).

The reason I'm asking is that we don't want to try it on our customers before learning the background, if any. I have seen install videos when the makers apply superglue while installing the ferrule, but that was for pool cues and threaded tenon. I wonder if superglue would work as good on a non-threaded one.
 
Vahmurka said:
We have always been using 5 min 2-part epoxy for installing ferrules (note the tenon is not threaded). Got me wondering if there would be changes, potentially negative, if we try superglue gel? Epoxy holds great, and plays good. Would superglue tend to crack because of hard hits, or maybe change the feel of the hit? Also please note most of the cues we deal with are for Russian Pyramid (hard hits of heavy balls).

The reason I'm asking is that we don't want to try it on our customers before learning the background, if any. I have seen install videos when the makers apply superglue while installing the ferrule, but that was for pool cues and threaded tenon. I wonder if superglue would work as good on a non-threaded one.
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Hi,

I have been using G5 Epoxy mix with white pigment for 8 years on ferrules and have never had a ferrule job come back. Super Glue's tensile and ductility properties is not something I have researched because I have never used it for anything other that gluing a tip on.

I use Super Glues and know they are very effect in bonding and adhesion. If I were you I would research if other propertied before making a change for change's sake, the sake of your customers and your reputation should the ferrule come loose.

Again, I have seen other cue repair persons do a ferrule with super glue at shows I have attended. I usually wait at least one hour for the 5 minute epoxy to set and cure enough to turn and face.

Super glue is doubtless a fast method when people are in line to have their cues worked on. Is it as good as epoxy? I have no idea what the long term effect is but I am happy with epoxy.

Good Luck,

Rick
 
Rick, thanks for your reply.
Yep, we also have used superglue only for sticking tips on.

Super glue is doubtless a fast method when people are in line to have their cues worked on.
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That is the main and only reason why I decided to come up with my question. Epoxy works great for us, yet takes time to work on until it sets. We are not thinking about total change but potential use of CA on those occasions. So far, we have been happy with epoxy resin.
 
Ever hear the term, Pay now or pay me later, I happen to like the guys who use super glue, It means sooner or later if the cue is around here, I get to change the ferrule on it. Nothing says finished like epoxy.
 
Try it on your own cue & see for yourself. Could work just fine if tolerances are correct. But testing is the only way to know.
 
I will say this. Super glues when they dry get very hard a brittle! Epoxy doesn't! I use epoxy because I know the chances of it coming back because it is loose is slim to none. Super glue is good for tips. but I dont think its good for ferulles. JMO
 
patrickcues said:
I will say this. Super glues when they dry get very hard a brittle! Epoxy doesn't! I use epoxy because I know the chances of it coming back because it is loose is slim to none. Super glue is good for tips. but I dont think its good for ferulles. JMO
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ca doesn't handle impact well and as mentioned is very hard and brittle. i do use a rubberized ca gel for tips now, and that stuff is flexible when dry and the package says it is impact resistant. if you had to use superglue for a ferrule, that's the kind i'd go with. i did test a few threaded ferrules with it, played with it over a fairly long time, used it a lot for breaking too and it help up OK. but hard to say for sure without a bigger sample size. i always use epoxy because i don't do the "on the spot" stuff
 
I have used CA for ferrules and jump break tip/ferrule combos for the past 10 years.....without a single callback.

I have also used epoxy, both 5 minute and 45 minute
I don't like the wait time and also the smell of the epoxies :cool:

Like I say, never had one come back
 
Cyano is the most misunderstood & most taboo adhesive we use. We trust it most for the only part of a cue DESIGNED for continuous impact, but then preach that it's too brittle & weak to use for anything else because it can't handle impact. Ironic to say the very least.
 
qbilder said:
Cyano is the most misunderstood & most taboo adhesive we use. We trust it most for the only part of a cue DESIGNED for continuous impact, but then preach that it's too brittle & weak to use for anything else because it can't handle impact. Ironic to say the very least.
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That is because leather stretches and flexes.
We can use contact cement for tips too. Contact cement is even used for gluing rubber to subrails on pool tables.
I sure won't use contact cement for ferrules though.
Wood glue, yes.
The Gorilla Glue is the most misunderstood glue I think.
It's made a lot of people convert though.
 
JoeyInCali said:
That is because leather stretches and flexes.
We can use contact cement for tips too. Contact cement is even used for gluing rubber to subrails on pool tables.
I sure won't use contact cement for ferrules though.
Wood glue, yes.
The Gorilla Glue is the most misunderstood glue I think.
It's made a lot of people convert though.
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My thoughts are that cyano holds phenolic tips, which are not flexible or stretchy. I see it hold leather tips that last until there's no sidewall left & the ferrule fails while the tip is still attached. I see melamine & molded plastic ferrules crack & break while the tip is still attached. Regardless of how flexy the tip is, the ferrule can only fail under tremendous shock. If cyano was that brittle & untrusty, then it would surely fail before the ferrule. But it doesn't. Why? Phenolic jump tips are glued on with cyano & absorb the most shock of any other shot in the game, but they don't fail or pop off. There's no margin for flex or stretch in jump cues, which means if cyano was so brittle then it wouldn't work for that application. But fact is that it's the preferred adhesive.

Point being, there's a lot of evidence to suggest cyano is plenty strong enough. There's only heresay & nothing I have seen to prove otherwise. I personally feel that we as cue makers are hard wired to believe that adhesive has to be slow cure in order to be strong, and that simply isn't true. I think that's why cyano gets a bad rap. Even in this thread we see the idea of using cyano as a means to be in a hurry instead of 'doing it right'. It's taboo to use fast cure glue, even if nobody actually has any data what so ever to support the notion that it's not good enough. If there is data then I haven't seen it. But as an industry we look down on guys who use it for anything besides tips & I really don't know why. I hear about it being brittle but haven't seen that in anything except cheap home use glue you get from walmart. I have heard it cures too fast so it must not be strong, but I have never seen data to support that claim. I hear lots of bad things about cyano but never any evidence. The only evidence I have seen with my own two eyes is that cyano is the most trusted adhesive for the most critical glue bond on the cue, the tip. But it still gets a bad rap.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all saying cyano is better than anything else or even that what people say about it is wrong. I'm just saying that I think it's about time to put those claims to the test & find out once and for all. I'm a scientific minded fellow. I like proof, not here say & adopted beliefs. I see cyano as a huge taboo in cues while at the same time seeing it utilized nearly exclusively for the only glue bond in a cue that endures impact. That seems conflicting to me.


edit: i'm not arguing with you, Joey. Just referenced your post because of the tip part.
 
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Loctite 454 CA glue has more elasticity than other formulas , and thats why I like to use it . It's america and pelicans can say all super glue is bad ... Narrow perspective !!! Back when I built custom , frequency matched sets of golf clubs , I studied a book , encyclopedia type, on adhesives . Yes , most Ca's are brittle , but there are formulas that aren't so much . For structures that experience constant impact , the elasticity in the bond is a plus . The epoxies used for club making are designed for such abuse . I also learned they have a shelf life , so replace your inventory once a year . Pay a little more for quality !!!! If you like to use CA , (Loctite 454 )... Good luck ...;):cool:
 
I'll admit, I've used 454 before when in a rush, and backed up with work, but only for some house cues.I don't go there with a player cue though. Normally on threaded ferrules I could use epoxy, gorilla, Titebond, or Elmer's, just depends what I'm using at the time, I only like the last 2 for ease of removal during ferrule swaps, but on slip tenons I pretty much strictly use gorilla or epoxy. Mostly epoxy across the board though.

If there are any ill effects from using CA, which there could be for all I know, I can't make that judgment call, but from what I can tell, It would most likely show up in the form of cracked ferrules, although That would be based off the use of ferrule material that may be prone to It either way, and people are overly rough on house cues, so hard to nullify those facts from the equation. That still leaves me guessing on just how much the CA would have to do with It. I guess I still fall on middle ground, but obviously I caution to one side because I don't use CA on player cues, and would not use It on the ferrule of a cue that I make.

Greg
 
I will state the most obvious problem with super glue for thread on ferrules is that I have seen them stick before getting threaded all the way on. Once it is on it will probably be strong enough in a thread on ferrule. That is not saying it is as strong as epoxy, but just saying it is probably strong enough. I have seen too many slip on ferrules come lose that I suspect were glued on with super glue. To answer the question put forth about why we can trust it on a tip but not a ferrule. A tip to ferrule bond is flat with almost no glue thinkness and the pressure is coming against that molecular bond flat on when striking the cue ball. With a ferrule that is glued with cyno the impact is coming down trying to break the bond from the other angle. I will compare it to every shot on the tip being hit with the side of the tip. Tips would not hold on very long that way. If you think this is wrong take a junky shaft, glue a tip to it and smack the top of the cue ball pretty hard with the ferrule a few hundred times and see it you still have a tip on it.
 
CA (superglue) is a poor substitute for epoxy in a ferrule install.
It does not have the mechanical properties required for an acceptable bond.
CA has a shelf life & a working/use life. 1 yr is about it. Any longer than that and you're running on luck.
CA will not stand repeated impact, particularly in a 'shear' application which is what the ferrule/tenon relationship is.

Consider also that not one production cue manufacturer uses CA to install a ferrule. In a world where the objective is to get the cue out the door as quickly as possible and into the market-place, you'd think they'd be pursuing every time-saving method they could dream of.
Don't think for an instant that they haven't experimented with CA bonded ferrules, yet even they realize that when (not if) that ferrule lets loose, they'll have a warranty issue and a pissed-off buyer.

You're certainly free to install a ferrule in any manner that suits your fancy; no one can tell you how to build your cues or how to do your repair work.
There are even some here that tout great success using CA.
Good luck to them. You only lose once in Russian Roulette.
Your results may vary.
 
I still don't see or hear any negative feedback from anybody who's tried it. So far everybody that's chimed in with experience has posted positive results. But I still see a lot of negative assumptions & what ifs from people who swear they will never even try it. I'd rather hear something from somebody who tried it & experienced failure with it so they could offer legitimate concerns rather than preconceived notions.

As for shear strength, i'd have to give the edge to cyano over wood glue. For a press fit ferrule I cannot see wood glue being any better. Epoxy maybe, but wouldn't bet on it at this point. Threaded ferrules are likely ok with anything. Heck, my ferrules are on so tight that the adhesive only acts as insurance anyway. But I just glued one on my cue today with cyano so i'll find out as I have a tourney in a few minutes. I'll give it some abuse & see what happens. And if it is worthless then i'll certainly tell about it.

Point is, I don't know if cyano is any good for ferrules or not. I haven't tested it well enough or tested any really good grades. And I don't know anybody who has. Time to find out.
 
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