Best post in this thread. I was beginning to think I lived in Mars. Pool is sure cruel to its own, especially the American pool culture. Thank you for writing my thoughts! :smile:
ABP- the difference between pros that play for a living
- Thread starter ABPpros
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Best post in this thread. I was beginning to think I lived in Mars. Pool is sure cruel to its own, especially the American pool culture. Thank you for writing my thoughts! :smile:
It's one thing to issue press releases or answer questions under the group banner. But, when someone uses the anonymous name to take shots at JCIN, Mark G, plus take a crap on a whole bunch of people who are just fans it's bush league. And it also leaves a bad smell on the whole APB.
The guys posting using the account anonymously need to remember that what they write is going to be attributed to the whole group. I think that's what rubs people the wrong way.
The whole process was stupid from the start. Nominate a spokesman, identify him and then get your message out. When Putnam is apologizing in another thread for conduct under the account, you have a problem. And it's been less than a week.
Rob Dunn
You're definitely right, no question about it. :smile:
Most of us are long-term members of this forum, and we have a familiarity with a forum environment.
I believe the ABP pros have no idea about forum etiquette; in fact, I'm sure of it, after reading some of their posts. :embarrassed2:
It's amazing, to me at least, that the ABP organization has so-called "board of directors" consisting of a president, first vice president, second vice president, secretary-treasurer, as well as legal counsel. Yet they do not seem to have a PUBLIC AFFAIRS or a PUBLIC RELATIONS person.
All of this could have been avoided if a front man for the ABP, a person experienced in dealing with the public, could have handled the press, the forum, the industry members, et cetera. That's the way to handle things professionally when you're an organization. You don't have the pool players addressing ABP organizational problems in the public arena.
I'm glad you brought this up, and I hope the ABP gets somebody to represent them for public relations. It has to be somebody with an ability to handle their emotions.
Pretty cavalier of you to throw Tony's name out there.
How about your own?
P.S. I have reviewed your posting IP's. I could begin speculation, but that might hurt your image.
Why not be a little more honest and tell everyone who you are without being pushed.
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here is exactly whats wrong with pool in the US. any "fan" not 100% behind the players here isnt really much of a fan at all. how many of you would work all week that be told by your employer "well i'll pay you when i can rather than when i said i would"? when you dont have money to pay your mortgage will be bank want to hear about how your money is coming at some point?
every year mr behrman promises the players will be paid on time, then writes a letter to apologize about not being able to do so. do you really think its unreasonable of the players to want proof that he has the money to make payment?
come on pool fans! stand behind the pro's.
brian
every year mr behrman promises the players will be paid on time, then writes a letter to apologize about not being able to do so. do you really think its unreasonable of the players to want proof that he has the money to make payment?
come on pool fans! stand behind the pro's.
brian
As I said earlier I AM A FAN! I have supported these players, by watching, traveling to see them, and buying books and videos.
To blindly follow them 100% just because they are pros is rediculous!
I have never claimed to be in the "inner circle", or played with, or for these people.
I have been following this forum for a number of years. The only thing I know is what you "experts" allow me to know.
To blindly follow them 100% just because they are pros is rediculous!
I have never claimed to be in the "inner circle", or played with, or for these people.
I have been following this forum for a number of years. The only thing I know is what you "experts" allow me to know.
The ABP account here on AZB (holy alphabet soup, Batman! ) was a bad idea. A very bad idea, and it needs to be rethought, Mr.Archer. The intentions were good, but the reality is this is bad for business.
I work at a large company. We are not allowed to represent ourselves on the internet as working for that company. You know why? Because when we speak in that manner, WE ARE THE COMPANY. To whoever reads it. Even though I am but a little peon in the scheme of things.
A company cannot control it's image when multiple people represent themselves as being part of the company here in the online world. In this example you have multiple different persons making posts under the ABPPro user name, saying whatever the hell they please, with no regard to the message being delivered. Many of the postings have a poor attitude and outright contempt for people, and that is no way to have a company interact with it's customer base. And that is what you are, Mr.Archer and friends. You are a company now, and we, the poolplaying public, are your customers.
You need to have Mr. Wilson kill this account, decide on one person who is to be the official spokesperson for your group, and have them make any and all statements regarding "the company". If any of your membership wishes to speak about any of these issues, they need to speak on their own behalf (and identity) and realize that they are representing "the company" when they do so. The best course of action would be for them to say something to the effect of "I'm not speaking for the entire membership here, but this is my opinion..."
I'm afraid you folks have done a great deal of damage to your reputation this week, Mr. Archer and associates. And I'm not even referring to the boycott itself. Rather, how you're handling yourselves here online. You have made many poor impressions this week, and sadly those impressions apply to a large group of people, people whose skills we all admire greatly. And sadder still is that these poor impressions are due to the lack of tact and forethought of a few people posting under your username. Those people have spoken for you all here, by remaining anonymous under your group username online. They have all spoken FOR YOU. I hope you are comfortable with that.
Here's to hoping you get some control of things internally, and that your group can come to some resolution with Mr. Berhman. If you want to be considered "professionals", you need to start acting like it.
*edit* Oh yeah,
signed, Bruce Worcester
) was a bad idea. A very bad idea, and it needs to be rethought, Mr.Archer. The intentions were good, but the reality is this is bad for business.I work at a large company. We are not allowed to represent ourselves on the internet as working for that company. You know why? Because when we speak in that manner, WE ARE THE COMPANY. To whoever reads it. Even though I am but a little peon in the scheme of things.
A company cannot control it's image when multiple people represent themselves as being part of the company here in the online world. In this example you have multiple different persons making posts under the ABPPro user name, saying whatever the hell they please, with no regard to the message being delivered. Many of the postings have a poor attitude and outright contempt for people, and that is no way to have a company interact with it's customer base. And that is what you are, Mr.Archer and friends. You are a company now, and we, the poolplaying public, are your customers.
You need to have Mr. Wilson kill this account, decide on one person who is to be the official spokesperson for your group, and have them make any and all statements regarding "the company". If any of your membership wishes to speak about any of these issues, they need to speak on their own behalf (and identity) and realize that they are representing "the company" when they do so. The best course of action would be for them to say something to the effect of "I'm not speaking for the entire membership here, but this is my opinion..."
I'm afraid you folks have done a great deal of damage to your reputation this week, Mr. Archer and associates. And I'm not even referring to the boycott itself. Rather, how you're handling yourselves here online. You have made many poor impressions this week, and sadly those impressions apply to a large group of people, people whose skills we all admire greatly. And sadder still is that these poor impressions are due to the lack of tact and forethought of a few people posting under your username. Those people have spoken for you all here, by remaining anonymous under your group username online. They have all spoken FOR YOU. I hope you are comfortable with that.
Here's to hoping you get some control of things internally, and that your group can come to some resolution with Mr. Berhman. If you want to be considered "professionals", you need to start acting like it.
*edit* Oh yeah,
signed, Bruce Worcester
P. R.
I am pleased to announce that ABPpros have engaged the services of our public relations firm, Kickin' Chicken's Extreme Makeovers, LLC.
We will be issuing statements periodically that, hopefully, will provide clarity on positions taken by ABPpros on a variety of issues including the current Behrman-US Open slow pay vs. ABPpros want fast pay, upcoming boycott.
All of us involved in the American pool scene are exquisitely aware of the economic difficulties that surround us. We prefer not to be compared, however, with other regions of the world where pool is enjoying huge successes, as this would be patently unfair.
Here's why:
Historically, America has been a follower, never really a trail blazer. Typically, we would look on from the sidelines while other countries did the innovating. We'd wait an appropriate amount of time to see how things went, then, assuming all was well, we would adopt those ideas into our lives. This was safer, posed much less of a challenge, and cost considerably less than if we were to have taken a lead role.
In trying to follow this proud American tradition, we would humbly ask that our fans (the fairweather, the mediocre, the spirited, and the rabid) be patient with us. American pool should get to where it needs to be in approximately twenty-seven and a half years from now.
Also, we wish to make something perfectly clear regarding the looming US Open boycott. We, as a group, will not now, nor will we ever tolerate discrimination. The fact that Barry Behrman paid (on the spot) just 92 of the 96 who came in the money at the 2010 US Open speaks volumes. It is our position that Mr. Behrman harbors resentment and discriminates toward either the English, the Fins, or the Pinoys, we're not sure exactly which. We are certain, however, that he holds some top Finn ishers in very low regard.
Many of you are wondering why we have decided to make this US Open boycott our first major stand. It's simple. Slow pay is one thing, to not be paid at all, is another.
ABPpros hired the public accounting firm, Dewey, Cheatham & Howe, experts in forensic accounting, for their opinion to help guide our (ABP's) decision on whether or not to boycott. Here is a quote from the D,C & H expert's final report:
"We find that event promoters, consistently, will completely default on all financial obligations having to do with said events sometime between the 33rd and 38th years of hosting the event." - Ivanna Cheatham, D,C & H
Adding considerably to our concern were recent telephone voice messages left by Mr. Behrman in which he used swear words. As pool players, we find this to be very alarming and hurtful. Nothing short of an apology from Barry Behrman, one that features no more swearing, will do.
We want our fans to know that everyone named on the pro player boycott list, even those who have no idea they were included, are also facing tough economic times. Aside from the prestige and possible purses at events like the US Open, there are not as many good stakehorses around anymore who can help us out with our action matches. It's a tough business, indeed.
Also, dear cherished fans, please don't let it be lost on you that we have financial obligations, too. Has anyone priced Hustlin' USA gear lately? Gas is $4.00 per gallon and perhaps you've heard that Verizon just cut their unlimited data plan. And then there's the baby's mommas...all those baby mommas...
We can only ask that you feel some of our pain. Is that too much to ask?
Respectfully,
An ABPpro <---- you guess who, it's much funner that way...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Best,
Brian kickin' chicken's extreme makeovers, llc - no rights reserved
I am pleased to announce that ABPpros have engaged the services of our public relations firm, Kickin' Chicken's Extreme Makeovers, LLC.
We will be issuing statements periodically that, hopefully, will provide clarity on positions taken by ABPpros on a variety of issues including the current Behrman-US Open slow pay vs. ABPpros want fast pay, upcoming boycott.
All of us involved in the American pool scene are exquisitely aware of the economic difficulties that surround us. We prefer not to be compared, however, with other regions of the world where pool is enjoying huge successes, as this would be patently unfair.
Here's why:
Historically, America has been a follower, never really a trail blazer. Typically, we would look on from the sidelines while other countries did the innovating. We'd wait an appropriate amount of time to see how things went, then, assuming all was well, we would adopt those ideas into our lives. This was safer, posed much less of a challenge, and cost considerably less than if we were to have taken a lead role.
In trying to follow this proud American tradition, we would humbly ask that our fans (the fairweather, the mediocre, the spirited, and the rabid) be patient with us. American pool should get to where it needs to be in approximately twenty-seven and a half years from now.
Also, we wish to make something perfectly clear regarding the looming US Open boycott. We, as a group, will not now, nor will we ever tolerate discrimination. The fact that Barry Behrman paid (on the spot) just 92 of the 96 who came in the money at the 2010 US Open speaks volumes. It is our position that Mr. Behrman harbors resentment and discriminates toward either the English, the Fins, or the Pinoys, we're not sure exactly which. We are certain, however, that he holds some top Finn ishers in very low regard.
Many of you are wondering why we have decided to make this US Open boycott our first major stand. It's simple. Slow pay is one thing, to not be paid at all, is another.
ABPpros hired the public accounting firm, Dewey, Cheatham & Howe, experts in forensic accounting, for their opinion to help guide our (ABP's) decision on whether or not to boycott. Here is a quote from the D,C & H expert's final report:
"We find that event promoters, consistently, will completely default on all financial obligations having to do with said events sometime between the 33rd and 38th years of hosting the event." - Ivanna Cheatham, D,C & H
Adding considerably to our concern were recent telephone voice messages left by Mr. Behrman in which he used swear words. As pool players, we find this to be very alarming and hurtful. Nothing short of an apology from Barry Behrman, one that features no more swearing, will do.
We want our fans to know that everyone named on the pro player boycott list, even those who have no idea they were included, are also facing tough economic times. Aside from the prestige and possible purses at events like the US Open, there are not as many good stakehorses around anymore who can help us out with our action matches. It's a tough business, indeed.
Also, dear cherished fans, please don't let it be lost on you that we have financial obligations, too. Has anyone priced Hustlin' USA gear lately? Gas is $4.00 per gallon and perhaps you've heard that Verizon just cut their unlimited data plan. And then there's the baby's mommas...all those baby mommas...
We can only ask that you feel some of our pain. Is that too much to ask?
Respectfully,
An ABPpro <---- you guess who, it's much funner that way...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Best,
Brian kickin' chicken's extreme makeovers, llc - no rights reserved
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Weak, antagonistic ending but the general message is on target... The income level from pool sucks due largely to the fact that the beneficiaries have not done everything necessary to make it successful...
There is no apparent driving force lifting and expanding the game. The lack of forethought, direction and leadership does not bode well for the sport in the US.
Gonna go out on a limb and say it's the same IP as Dragon Promotions? WHAT DID I WIN????????
![quiet_please_pool_player_at_work_photosculpture-p1535496541118122403s98_400[1].jpg](/data/attachments/139/139199-7e2cc1cf1f0f5a5f8d9179a4443395e5.jpg?hash=fizBzx8PWl)
Well, I clearly had a pretty solid point for you to respond in another thread then feel the need to create a new thread about my post.
You're right, I have never played pool for a living. I'm a motion graphics designer/visual effects artist. When I started down my career path I had choices to make and I picked a field that was fun and well paying. You had similar choices to make in life. You must have known the money being made in pool was low and still picked that path. Seems the only person you can blame for that is yourself. I cannot blame you thought. Its a sweet life. I have a lot of friends that play pool for a living and I highly respect them. A lot of them also have jobs and while I agree... that sucks, its life.
I do however know what its like to pay to go to work, I do it every day. I also invest thousands and thousands into my career buying $8,000 computers, $4,000 software (what seems like every two weeks) etc. Not to mention $2,500/month in daycare for my daughter while I work.
But I do think you missed some of my points and I did make some good ones. Barry has a huge overhead, much more than the players. I'm not even taking sides, just offering perspective. Like all promoters, hes gotta pump a lot of money into that place and its a gamble if he comes out ahead or even.
What if Barry just said he can't promise payment right after the tournament?.. That top finishers will have to wait a few months.
This is a tough situation since both sides are right and there isn't much money to go around in the first place.
Don't think 9 and 10ball is really a marketable product in North America but that's just my opinion. 8 ball might be but I don't think it's ever really been given a chance. Plus pro's don't like to play it.
If they want to start a tour then they need to start small, like the circus coming to town. And advertise the hell outta it. If there is a market then maybe it will grow and tv might take notice. But wanting it all right off the bat aint the way to go. Unless you have a KT backing ya.
Hope everything works out. Barry seems like a good guy.
This is a tough situation since both sides are right and there isn't much money to go around in the first place.
Don't think 9 and 10ball is really a marketable product in North America but that's just my opinion. 8 ball might be but I don't think it's ever really been given a chance. Plus pro's don't like to play it.
If they want to start a tour then they need to start small, like the circus coming to town. And advertise the hell outta it. If there is a market then maybe it will grow and tv might take notice. But wanting it all right off the bat aint the way to go. Unless you have a KT backing ya.
Hope everything works out. Barry seems like a good guy.
Hi,
i really don t understand where you/all could find a point a discussion worth. If somebody starts a tournament, he has to take care that he has enough sponsors etc. - he plans, manages etc.
So he has to definitley be sure, to pay the price-money immediatley. To compare a win of a tournament with daily buisness? Sorry, lol!
The money hast to be there-nowhere else. you win the tournament, you have to get the money.
Perhaps i m thinkin too simple.....
just my 2 cents,
p.s.-- and if a pro would JUST have to wait for 15-20 k for about 3-4 weeks, discussions like these here would never come up.
lg
Ingo
i really don t understand where you/all could find a point a discussion worth. If somebody starts a tournament, he has to take care that he has enough sponsors etc. - he plans, manages etc.
So he has to definitley be sure, to pay the price-money immediatley. To compare a win of a tournament with daily buisness? Sorry, lol!
The money hast to be there-nowhere else. you win the tournament, you have to get the money.
Perhaps i m thinkin too simple.....
just my 2 cents,
p.s.-- and if a pro would JUST have to wait for 15-20 k for about 3-4 weeks, discussions like these here would never come up.
lg
Ingo
Well said, sir. Well, said...
I cant get over the...Shut -up and play theory.
I can bet that those with this attitude have never been exposed to
making a living this way. I was discussing this matter with a few friends last night and the wealthier the friend the less understanding they have.
One of them made the statement...What is $500 to play in the open.
Well for one it is just the entry,no transportation there or back and no room and food. It is a hell of a lot more than $500. I have always had big respect for Cleary,but he lives in a bubble as do a lot of other posters.
This is their bread for the table. One statement was.....Well its not like they are working hard...WTF? That sounds like a jealousy statement,oh wait.
Why would he be jealous?.Like he told the current US Open champion at the time..I make more money than you,I have a hot wife da,da,da. Pool is not
easy work.It is a hell of a lot easier to sit at a dam keyboard.
Point is, let them look out for each others welfare. cause they are not getting paid to just show up and smile and shake hands. To think Pro pool is not hard work and stress is plain ignorance
PS.I wrote this before reading your post above Cleary. But you deserved your own thread
I have A lot of respect our pros but I am not hugging or hating anyone.
I can bet that those with this attitude have never been exposed to
making a living this way. I was discussing this matter with a few friends last night and the wealthier the friend the less understanding they have.
One of them made the statement...What is $500 to play in the open.
Well for one it is just the entry,no transportation there or back and no room and food. It is a hell of a lot more than $500. I have always had big respect for Cleary,but he lives in a bubble as do a lot of other posters.
This is their bread for the table. One statement was.....Well its not like they are working hard...WTF? That sounds like a jealousy statement,oh wait.
Why would he be jealous?.Like he told the current US Open champion at the time..I make more money than you,I have a hot wife da,da,da. Pool is not
easy work.It is a hell of a lot easier to sit at a dam keyboard.
Point is, let them look out for each others welfare. cause they are not getting paid to just show up and smile and shake hands. To think Pro pool is not hard work and stress is plain ignorance
PS.I wrote this before reading your post above Cleary. But you deserved your own thread
I have A lot of respect our pros but I am not hugging or hating anyone.
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The problem is, these pro's can't wait a week or two to get paid because they're all trying out for the PGA between tournaments. They talk about how rough they have it but how many are shooting under 80 on the golf course? Quite a few from what I've heard.
How many are putting more time on the golf course than the pool table? How many are working an 8 hour day 5 days a week working on their pool game? I bet not many Americans besides SVB.
How rough is your life if you're golfing 3-5 days a week between tournaments? Let your income truly dictate your lifestyle instead of spending like there's no tomorrow every time you win a few thousand.
How many are putting more time on the golf course than the pool table? How many are working an 8 hour day 5 days a week working on their pool game? I bet not many Americans besides SVB.
How rough is your life if you're golfing 3-5 days a week between tournaments? Let your income truly dictate your lifestyle instead of spending like there's no tomorrow every time you win a few thousand.
T
This advice could land on either side of the debate. Spending excessive
when your short on money to begin with .
I am all for the pros helping themselves, but this kind of activity is not helping anyone. Organize our own tournaments if you want to be pro active. The union type mentality went out the door years ago. You need to work together with the promoter and not have the entitlement attitude. Perhaps your sponsors can work with the tournament promoter to help make the event it what you want it to be. But making demands to a promoter is rather hard to swallow in this day and age, even if he has the reputation of not having the funds when he says.