Dragon World 14.1 Tournament, is still the World 14.1 Championships

[maxeberle]

Dear Pool Players and Fans,

Back in 2006 when Dragon Promotions revived the World 14.1 Championships, the Professional Players and pool fans of the world rejoiced!

The WPA even sanctioned it in the first 5 years that Dragon Promotions held the event, a popular tournament which Charlie Williams and Cindy Lee were cool enough to bring back.

At the end of the day, the year, and the history of pool, these past 5 tournaments (2006-2010) will be regarded by history as the true World 14.1 Championships, now called the World Tournament by Dragon Promotions. The winners will go in the record books, and in the mind and hearts of the fans.

And I believe this event will be regarded as the true World 14.1 Championship this year, 2011, and into the future, that this is undoubtedly the largest International 14.1 event in the World, filled with almost all of the best 14.1 players from around the world every year, and that almost every pro player considers it a true World Championship. Period.

At the end of the day all that matters is that the players and the fans consider this the real World 14.1 Championships.

I urge the WPA to stop trying to make a power move with this event without even then offering to replace it with what they would consider a real world event. This move is unpopular with all of the fans and the players.

I believe and hope that the BCA will do the right thing and continue to accurately list in their record books the winner of this event as the true World Champion.

After all, the World 14.1 Championships has a long colored history of such disputes, (some of Willie Mosconi's World Titles were won in a 2 man challenge match) and at the end of the day, the printers of the record books will do the correct thing, and list this years event as the true World 14.1 Championship along with the true World Champions.

So WPA, please put the politics aside as you would only be doing the right thing for this historic branch of pool by continuing to sanction this event which now by consensus reality (Pro Players, Fans, & All Other Players), is still, the one and only true World 14.1 Championship, this very Dragon Promotions World 14.1Tournament.

The WPA's explanation is to vague and insufficient to deprive all pool lovers and the history of pool, one of its oldest traditions and most coveted titles. This isn't about the WPA. These great champions deserve better and the world deserves better.

While it is nice that the WPA does sanction the 9-Ball and 10-ball World Championships produced by other promoters around the world, this move by the WPA with the World 14.1 Championships is a blunder and a baffling attempt to discredit what has already achieved credible status the World Over.

This tournament (this year and all the past 5 years) is actually one of the most true World 14.1 Championship ever, in that tournament's long history, when you consider the true international field and depth of skill and talent. For that, the pro players, fans, and myself, congratulate Dragon Promotions on a job well done.

Thank you very much,

Max Eberle

maxeberle.com

 

[krelldog]

On a side note....I just watched the 2009- 14.1 Predator World Championship between Stephen Cohen and Mika Immonen for the first time. I'm not the biggest 14.1 fan....but this is one of the best matches I have ever seen. This is also an Accustats video for anyone thats interested. I thought Dragon Promotions and Accustats did a fantastic job. Hopefully all the political nonsense gets ironed out.

 

[PoolGrapevine]

Hear hear!! (or is it here,here?) lol

 

[Bigtruck]

Tap Tap Tap

Dear Pool Players and Fans,

Back in 2006 when Dragon Promotions revived the World 14.1 Championships, the Professional Players and pool fans of the world rejoiced!

The WPA even sanctioned it in the first 5 years that Dragon Promotions held the event, a popular tournament which Charlie Williams and Cindy Lee were cool enough to bring back.

At the end of the day, the year, and the history of pool, these past 5 tournaments (2006-2010) will be regarded by history as the true World 14.1 Championships, now called the World Tournament by Dragon Promotions. The winners will go in the record books, and in the mind and hearts of the fans.

And I believe this event will be regarded as the true World 14.1 Championship this year, 2011, and into the future, that this is undoubtedly the largest International 14.1 event in the World, filled with almost all of the best 14.1 players from around the world every year, and that almost every pro player considers it a true World Championship. Period.

At the end of the day all that matters is that the players and the fans consider this the real World 14.1 Championships.

I urge the WPA to stop trying to make a power move with this event without even then offering to replace it with what they would consider a real world event. This move is unpopular with all of the fans and the players.

I believe and hope that the BCA will do the right thing and continue to accurately list in their record books the winner of this event as the true World Champion.

After all, the World 14.1 Championships has a long colored history of such disputes, (some of Willie Mosconi's World Titles were won in a 2 man challenge match) and at the end of the day, the printers of the record books will do the correct thing, and list this years event as the true World 14.1 Championship along with the true World Champions.

So WPA, please put the politics aside as you would only be doing the right thing for this historic branch of pool by continuing to sanction this event which now by consensus reality (Pro Players, Fans, & All Other Players), is still, the one and only true World 14.1 Championship, this very Dragon Promotions World 14.1Tournament.

The WPA's explanation is to vague and insufficient to deprive all pool lovers and the history of pool, one of its oldest traditions and most coveted titles. This isn't about the WPA. These great champions deserve better and the world deserves better.

While it is nice that the WPA does sanction the 9-Ball and 10-ball World Championships produced by other promoters around the world, this move by the WPA with the World 14.1 Championships is a blunder and a baffling attempt to discredit what has already achieved credible status the World Over.

This tournament (this year and all the past 5 years) is actually one of the most true World 14.1 Championship ever, in that tournament's long history, when you consider the true international field and depth of skill and talent. For that, the pro players, fans, and myself, congratulate Dragon Promotions on a job well done.

Thank you very much,

Max Eberle

maxeberle.com

 

[cleary]

I actually JUST had the world 14.1 championship last week. I didn't have a dragon to promote it, but yep, we had it! I won, so I'm a world champion. My daughter brooklyn got 2nd and my cats Monster and Nala got 3rd/4th respectively. So I'm not sure why someone else is holding a world 14.1 championship now...

 

[cleary]

I actually JUST had the world 14.1 championship last week. I didn't have a dragon to promote it, but yep, we had it! I won, so I'm a world champion. My daughter brooklyn got 2nd and my cats Monster and Nala got 3rd/4th respectively. So I'm not sure why someone else is holding a world 14.1 championship now...

HEY! Quit trying to make Max mad!

 

[maxeberle]

HEY! Quit trying to make Max mad!

LOL :smile:

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

Dear Pool Players and Fans,

Back in 2006 when Dragon Promotions revived the World 14.1 Championships, the Professional Players and pool fans of the world rejoiced!

The WPA even sanctioned it in the first 5 years that Dragon Promotions held the event, a popular tournament which Charlie Williams and Cindy Lee were cool enough to bring back.

At the end of the day, the year, and the history of pool, these past 5 tournaments (2006-2010) will be regarded by history as the true World 14.1 Championships, now called the World Tournament by Dragon Promotions. The winners will go in the record books, and in the mind and hearts of the fans.

And I believe this event will be regarded as the true World 14.1 Championship this year, 2011, and into the future, that this is undoubtedly the largest International 14.1 event in the World, filled with almost all of the best 14.1 players from around the world every year, and that almost every pro player considers it a true World Championship. Period.

At the end of the day all that matters is that the players and the fans consider this the real World 14.1 Championships.

I urge the WPA to stop trying to make a power move with this event without even then offering to replace it with what they would consider a real world event. This move is unpopular with all of the fans and the players.

I believe and hope that the BCA will do the right thing and continue to accurately list in their record books the winner of this event as the true World Champion.

After all, the World 14.1 Championships has a long colored history of such disputes, (some of Willie Mosconi's World Titles were won in a 2 man challenge match) and at the end of the day, the printers of the record books will do the correct thing, and list this years event as the true World 14.1 Championship along with the true World Champions.

So WPA, please put the politics aside as you would only be doing the right thing for this historic branch of pool by continuing to sanction this event which now by consensus reality (Pro Players, Fans, & All Other Players), is still, the one and only true World 14.1 Championship, this very Dragon Promotions World 14.1Tournament.

The WPA's explanation is to vague and insufficient to deprive all pool lovers and the history of pool, one of its oldest traditions and most coveted titles. This isn't about the WPA. These great champions deserve better and the world deserves better.

While it is nice that the WPA does sanction the 9-Ball and 10-ball World Championships produced by other promoters around the world, this move by the WPA with the World 14.1 Championships is a blunder and a baffling attempt to discredit what has already achieved credible status the World Over.

This tournament (this year and all the past 5 years) is actually one of the most true World 14.1 Championship ever, in that tournament's long history, when you consider the true international field and depth of skill and talent. For that, the pro players, fans, and myself, congratulate Dragon Promotions on a job well done.

Thank you very much,

Max Eberle

maxeberle.com

So in other words Dragon didn't want to pay the WPA sanctioning/bribe fee?

 

[Bob Jewett]

So in other words Dragon didn't want to pay the WPA sanctioning/bribe fee?

I think a larger factor is that the WPA requires $75,000 added money for a sanctioned WC. In the past, DP did meet the previous sanctioning requirements but that was with a lower added-money requirement.

The sanctioning fee is not a major cost to the event.

 

[Bigtruck]

I think a larger factor is that the WPA requires $75,000 added money for a sanctioned WC. In the past, DP did meet the previous sanctioning requirements but that was with a lower added-money requirement.

The sanctioning fee is not a major cost to the event.

from the WPA website -

"Sanctioning is required when an event will include players from other intercontinental memberships that make up a minimum of eight players, or one-eight of the field, and has an added prize fund on offer in excess of USD 30,000"

The Fee for this event would be at least $1,750 plus accommodations for a WPA rep for @ 8 days

Ray

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

Max,

With all due respect, your post shows a distinct lack of understanding about how World Championships must be conducted. And your insinuation that the WPA and the BCA do not recognize this "World Tournament" because they wish to pull a 'power play' or because it is politically based is nothing more than a lie. So let's talk about World Championships and why this event is not one of them and will not be recognized as one now or in the future.

Prior to the formation of the WPA (and for years afterward) in 1992 there were myriads of "World Championships". The Jansco's held World Championships in a bar and allowed anyone with the entry fee to play. No qualifications required. Every player organization held their own World Championships with no countries other than America represented. One Hall Of Famer has the phrase "Over 80 World Titles" on his business card. 80 World Titles in a playing career of 35 years? Nope. Not possible. What the card should say is "over 80 titles in events that called themselves World Championships".

The governing bodies of pool worldwide saw this as a huge problem because:
a) World Championship titles meant nothing. If there are three World 9-Ball Championships in a year, who is the true World Champion? No way to know.
b) There was no incentive for a legitimate promoter to go to the effort of staging a true World Championship since he could go to a great deal of trouble and expense to have an event that is lost in the cluster of events calling themselves World Championships.
c) This situation was extremely damaging to the game. When fans and sponsors do not have a central focus point the game loses impact.

So the disparate Governing Bodies around the world (the EPBF, the APBU, the BCA, etc) came together to organize the sport on a world-wide basis and bring some order to the chaos. This is still a work in progress (and will be for some time yet) and there are still those whose personal motives are at odds with the goal of raising the game to a truly professional level. But most promoters around the world have agreed to the rules and adhere to them. These rules include:

A MINIMUM ADDED MONEY AMOUNT: You cannot have a 'cheap' World Championship. The goal is to continually raise the amounts required for world titles so that players from all over the world can afford to participate. Frankly, with most World Championships only offering an added money amount of $200,000 we are not there yet. As I said, this is a work in progress, but we cannot have cheap events anymore. The WPA made the mistake of sanctioning the earlier Dragon 14.1 events as World Championships because it was hoped that the events would grow rich enough in time to make them worthy of WC status. But this really backfired. The promoters who were being required to put up $200,000 in added money complained (rightfully) that they had to scourge the earth to find the sponsorship dollars to hold a World Championship while Dragon was allowed to add small monies and have the same title. This was totally unfair to the promoters of those events, their sponsors who must cough up large sums, and to the players who had to endure travel expenses that could not be recovered from the prize fund.

In the near future there will be a true World 14.1 Championship. The WPA is in talks with interested parties now to make this happen. But I am sure you understand that we cannot demand big money from them and also recognize much smaller events from others. The minimum we would now require for a 14.1 Championship is $100,000 with a written plan to bring this over $200,000 in a short period of time.

INVITATIONS: Promoters do not control the invitation process in World Championships. The international federations do the invites from their ranking lists. That way you do not wind up with over 50 players from the USA in a 64-man field, a fact that by itself disqualifies this event as a World Championship. (America has only two players in the top 75 players in the world. To ignore that fact is very, very nearsighted.) Had Charlie wished to call this a National Championship he would have no problems, but he has overstepped the bounds of propriety by attempting to portray this as a World Event. You cannot have 'B' and 'C' players participate in a World Championship just to fill out the field. That can be done in large tournaments, but not in a World Event. Dragon, at one point, actually invited players to come down out of the stands and play to fill out one of their 14.1 fields. That flies in the face of any event worthy of WC status.

OUTSIDE CONTROL OF MANAGEMENT: WPA promoters do not have the final say in how their events are conducted or what rules they will use. This is all prescribed by the WPA and WPA officials are on site to (among other things) over-rule promoters who wish to 'customize' their event in a way that could be deemed detrimental to the sport, such as having near-amateur players and even sponsors participate in the competition.

I am forever bemused and amazed that professional players wish to take steps to cripple and cheapen the game in which they attempt to make a living. The BCA has a rule that no BCA points event may have less than $25,000 added - a rule that was put in place to protect you from promoters who would not do the work to generate the proper amount of added money. The players all agreed to this when it was put in place. But then those same players wanted the Hopkins event in 2010 (maybe this was 2009, not sure) to be a points event even though it only added $20,000. Hopkins understood the facts of life and was fine with it and the following year became a points event again by adding the $25,000. You guys are like a bunch of employees who sometimes ask to be paid less. This is not in your best interest and I fail to understand it. Why you do not declare a minimum for any event for you to participate in is a mystery. As long as you continue to play in cheap events you are preventing the game from ever paying decent prize funds. None of you should ever show up at an event that is less than $25,000 added unless it is a local event in your own backyard where there are no travel costs associated. And, really, even those should be left to the amateurs. Amateur prize funds should not attract professional play.

Max, the governing bodies of pool truly are working hard to make this game bigger but we get zero assistance from the pros in so doing. These governing bodies long ago set minimum standards. It would be in your own best interest if the players would do the same. As long as promoters know that you guys will travel coast to coast for $20,000 added then there is no need for them to pay you properly.

The WPA, despite all of the criticism that it receives, is determined to grow the sport and the purses of the events. In the last ten years the WPA has gone from a total yearly prize payout of $400,000 to one this year of around 2.3 million dollars and, next year, to about 3 million. That is not enough. It needs to be MUCH larger if this game is to ever gain popularity and be a decent vehicle for professionals to earn a living. But you need to stop spitting at those who are serving to generate a better future for you and you need to stop supporting events that do not pay you decently. If you guys want to live in poverty forever you can. But you do not have to. Set standards and then live by them and your fortunes can improve rapidly. Or continue the game on its now 50-year decline and put the blame for it on others as you have in your post. But if you really want to know who is to blame for the state of the game today, go find a mirror.

 

[Bigtruck]

Good post Jerry! Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the "big picture".

Ray

Max,

With all due respect, your post shows a distinct lack of understanding about how World Championships must be conducted. And your insinuation that the WPA and the BCA do not recognize this "World Tournament" because they wish to pull a 'power play' or because it is politically based is nothing more than a lie. So let's talk about World Championships and why this event is not one of them and will not be recognized as one now or in the future.

Prior to the formation of the WPA (and for years afterward) in 1992 there were myriads of "World Championships". The Jansco's held World Championships in a bar and allowed anyone with the entry fee to play. No qualifications required. Every player organization held their own World Championships with no countries other than America represented. One Hall Of Famer has the phrase "Over 80 World Titles" on his business card. 80 World Titles in a playing career of 35 years? Nope. Not possible. What the card should say is "over 80 titles in events that called themselves World Championships".

The governing bodies of pool worldwide saw this as a huge problem because:
a) World Championship titles meant nothing. If there are three World 9-Ball Championships in a year, who is the true World Champion? No way to know.
b) There was no incentive for a legitimate promoter to go to the effort of staging a true World Championship since he could go to a great deal of trouble and expense to have an event that is lost in the cluster of events calling themselves World Championships.
c) This situation was extremely damaging to the game. When fans and sponsors do not have a central focus point the game loses impact.

So the disparate Governing Bodies around the world (the EPBF, the APBU, the BCA, etc) came together to organize the sport on a world-wide basis and bring some order to the chaos. This is still a work in progress (and will be for some time yet) and there are still those whose personal motives are at odds with the goal of raising the game to a truly professional level. But most promoters around the world have agreed to the rules and adhere to them. These rules include:

A MINIMUM ADDED MONEY AMOUNT: You cannot have a 'cheap' World Championship. The goal is to continually raise the amounts required for world titles so that players from all over the world can afford to participate. Frankly, with most World Championships only offering an added money amount of $200,000 we are not there yet. As I said, this is a work in progress, but we cannot have cheap events anymore. The WPA made the mistake of sanctioning the earlier Dragon 14.1 events as World Championships because it was hoped that the events would grow rich enough in time to make them worthy of WC status. But this really backfired. The promoters who were being required to put up $200,000 in added money complained (rightfully) that they had to scourge the earth to find the sponsorship dollars to hold a World Championship while Dragon was allowed to add small monies and have the same title. This was totally unfair to the promoters of those events, their sponsors who must cough up large sums, and to the players who had to endure travel expenses that could not be recovered from the prize fund.

In the near future there will be a true World 14.1 Championship. The WPA is in talks with interested parties now to make this happen. But I am sure you understand that we cannot demand big money from them and also recognize much smaller events from others. The minimum we would now require for a 14.1 Championship is $100,000 with a written plan to bring this over $200,000 in a short period of time.

INVITATIONS: Promoters do not control the invitation process in World Championships. The international federations do the invites from their ranking lists. That way you do not wind up with over 50 players from the USA in a 64-man field, a fact that by itself disqualifies this event as a World Championship. (America has only two players in the top 75 players in the world. To ignore that fact is very, very nearsighted.) Had Charlie wished to call this a National Championship he would have no problems, but he has overstepped the bounds of propriety by attempting to portray this as a World Event. You cannot have 'B' and 'C' players participate in a World Championship just to fill out the field. That can be done in large tournaments, but not in a World Event. Dragon, at one point, actually invited players to come down out of the stands and play to fill out one of their 14.1 fields. That flies in the face of any event worthy of WC status.

OUTSIDE CONTROL OF MANAGEMENT: WPA promoters do not have the final say in how their events are conducted or what rules they will use. This is all prescribed by the WPA and WPA officials are on site to (among other things) over-rule promoters who wish to 'customize' their event in a way that could be deemed detrimental to the sport, such as having near-amateur players and even sponsors participate in the competition.

I am forever bemused and amazed that professional players wish to take steps to cripple and cheapen the game in which they attempt to make a living. The BCA has a rule that no BCA points event may have less than $25,000 added - a rule that was put in place to protect you from promoters who would not do the work to generate the proper amount of added money. The players all agreed to this when it was put in place. But then those same players wanted the Hopkins event in 2010 (maybe this was 2009, not sure) to be a points event even though it only added $20,000. Hopkins understood the facts of life and was fine with it and the following year became a points event again by adding the $25,000. You guys are like a bunch of employees who sometimes ask to be paid less. This is not in your best interest and I fail to understand it. Why you do not declare a minimum for any event for you to participate in is a mystery. As long as you continue to play in cheap events you are preventing the game from ever paying decent prize funds. None of you should ever show up at an event that is less than $25,000 added unless it is a local event in your own backyard where there are no travel costs associated. And, really, even those should be left to the amateurs. Amateur prize funds should not attract professional play.

Max, the governing bodies of pool truly are working hard to make this game bigger but we get zero assistance from the pros in so doing. These governing bodies long ago set minimum standards. It would be in your own best interest if the players would do the same. As long as promoters know that you guys will travel coast to coast for $20,000 added then there is no need for them to pay you properly.

The WPA, despite all of the criticism that it receives, is determined to grow the sport and the purses of the events. In the last ten years the WPA has gone from a total yearly prize payout of $400,000 to one this year of around 2.3 million dollars and, next year, to about 3 million. That is not enough. It needs to be MUCH larger if this game is to ever gain popularity and be a decent vehicle for professionals to earn a living. But you need to stop spitting at those who are serving to generate a better future for you and you need to stop supporting events that do not pay you decently. If you guys want to live in poverty forever you can. But you do not have to. Set standards and then live by them and your fortunes can improve rapidly. Or continue the game on its now 50-year decline and put the blame for it on others as you have in your post. But if you really want to know who is to blame for the state of the game today, go find a mirror.

 

[sstz28]

WOW! Talk about DETAIL that was an awesome explanation.

 

[bfdlad]

Max,

With all due respect, your post shows a distinct lack of understanding about how World Championships must be conducted. And your insinuation that the WPA and the BCA do not recognize this "World Tournament" because they wish to pull a 'power play' or because it is politically based is nothing more than a lie. So let's talk about World Championships and why this event is not one of them and will not be recognized as one now or in the future.

Prior to the formation of the WPA (and for years afterward) in 1992 there were myriads of "World Championships". The Jansco's held World Championships in a bar and allowed anyone with the entry fee to play. No qualifications required. Every player organization held their own World Championships with no countries other than America represented. One Hall Of Famer has the phrase "Over 80 World Titles" on his business card. 80 World Titles in a playing career of 35 years? Nope. Not possible. What the card should say is "over 80 titles in events that called themselves World Championships".

The governing bodies of pool worldwide saw this as a huge problem because:
a) World Championship titles meant nothing. If there are three World 9-Ball Championships in a year, who is the true World Champion? No way to know.
b) There was no incentive for a legitimate promoter to go to the effort of staging a true World Championship since he could go to a great deal of trouble and expense to have an event that is lost in the cluster of events calling themselves World Championships.
c) This situation was extremely damaging to the game. When fans and sponsors do not have a central focus point the game loses impact.

So the disparate Governing Bodies around the world (the EPBF, the APBU, the BCA, etc) came together to organize the sport on a world-wide basis and bring some order to the chaos. This is still a work in progress (and will be for some time yet) and there are still those whose personal motives are at odds with the goal of raising the game to a truly professional level. But most promoters around the world have agreed to the rules and adhere to them. These rules include:

A MINIMUM ADDED MONEY AMOUNT: You cannot have a 'cheap' World Championship. The goal is to continually raise the amounts required for world titles so that players from all over the world can afford to participate. Frankly, with most World Championships only offering an added money amount of $200,000 we are not there yet. As I said, this is a work in progress, but we cannot have cheap events anymore. The WPA made the mistake of sanctioning the earlier Dragon 14.1 events as World Championships because it was hoped that the events would grow rich enough in time to make them worthy of WC status. But this really backfired. The promoters who were being required to put up $200,000 in added money complained (rightfully) that they had to scourge the earth to find the sponsorship dollars to hold a World Championship while Dragon was allowed to add small monies and have the same title. This was totally unfair to the promoters of those events, their sponsors who must cough up large sums, and to the players who had to endure travel expenses that could not be recovered from the prize fund.

In the near future there will be a true World 14.1 Championship. The WPA is in talks with interested parties now to make this happen. But I am sure you understand that we cannot demand big money from them and also recognize much smaller events from others. The minimum we would now require for a 14.1 Championship is $100,000 with a written plan to bring this over $200,000 in a short period of time.

INVITATIONS: Promoters do not control the invitation process in World Championships. The international federations do the invites from their ranking lists. That way you do not wind up with over 50 players from the USA in a 64-man field, a fact that by itself disqualifies this event as a World Championship. (America has only two players in the top 75 players in the world. To ignore that fact is very, very nearsighted.) Had Charlie wished to call this a National Championship he would have no problems, but he has overstepped the bounds of propriety by attempting to portray this as a World Event. You cannot have 'B' and 'C' players participate in a World Championship just to fill out the field. That can be done in large tournaments, but not in a World Event. Dragon, at one point, actually invited players to come down out of the stands and play to fill out one of their 14.1 fields. That flies in the face of any event worthy of WC status.

OUTSIDE CONTROL OF MANAGEMENT: WPA promoters do not have the final say in how their events are conducted or what rules they will use. This is all prescribed by the WPA and WPA officials are on site to (among other things) over-rule promoters who wish to 'customize' their event in a way that could be deemed detrimental to the sport, such as having near-amateur players and even sponsors participate in the competition.

I am forever bemused and amazed that professional players wish to take steps to cripple and cheapen the game in which they attempt to make a living. The BCA has a rule that no BCA points event may have less than $25,000 added - a rule that was put in place to protect you from promoters who would not do the work to generate the proper amount of added money. The players all agreed to this when it was put in place. But then those same players wanted the Hopkins event in 2010 (maybe this was 2009, not sure) to be a points event even though it only added $20,000. Hopkins understood the facts of life and was fine with it and the following year became a points event again by adding the $25,000. You guys are like a bunch of employees who sometimes ask to be paid less. This is not in your best interest and I fail to understand it. Why you do not declare a minimum for any event for you to participate in is a mystery. As long as you continue to play in cheap events you are preventing the game from ever paying decent prize funds. None of you should ever show up at an event that is less than $25,000 added unless it is a local event in your own backyard where there are no travel costs associated. And, really, even those should be left to the amateurs. Amateur prize funds should not attract professional play.

Max, the governing bodies of pool truly are working hard to make this game bigger but we get zero assistance from the pros in so doing. These governing bodies long ago set minimum standards. It would be in your own best interest if the players would do the same. As long as promoters know that you guys will travel coast to coast for $20,000 added then there is no need for them to pay you properly.

The WPA, despite all of the criticism that it receives, is determined to grow the sport and the purses of the events. In the last ten years the WPA has gone from a total yearly prize payout of $400,000 to one this year of around 2.3 million dollars and, next year, to about 3 million. That is not enough. It needs to be MUCH larger if this game is to ever gain popularity and be a decent vehicle for professionals to earn a living. But you need to stop spitting at those who are serving to generate a better future for you and you need to stop supporting events that do not pay you decently. If you guys want to live in poverty forever you can. But you do not have to. Set standards and then live by them and your fortunes can improve rapidly. Or continue the game on its now 50-year decline and put the blame for it on others as you have in your post. But if you really want to know who is to blame for the state of the game today, go find a mirror.

Jerry, As you know I have nothing but respect for you and what you do for pool. There are just 2 things I noticed in your post that I have to say something about.

A) you say that the players should not play in any events that are less that $25k added. I totally agree with you here and actually think that $50k is a little more like it to be honest. However, these players are out there trying to pay the light bill or car payment. They don't have the luxury of skipping all events that are not to the WPA's standards.
B) The WPA takes a % of all the winnings from World Sanctioned events. Therefore they have another vested interest to make the events a larger purse right? Here is a question I have asked a few times to people and so far nobody has been able to giveme a very good answer. Now I know that you may just be the man to answer this for me, I hope. So they take the 5% I think it is from all the prize funds that are WPA sanctioned, what are they doing for that $$. Just sanctioning events?? Telling the promoters the rules? I really amd not trying to be a dick here but I really do not know what the WPA actually does for that 5% of 2.3Mil.
I really hope that this does not come off as attacking the WPA or anyone else for that matter, I want pool to do better.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

I am forever bemused and amazed that professional players wish to take steps to cripple and cheapen the game in which they attempt to make a living. You guys are like a bunch of employees who sometimes ask to be paid less. This is not in your best interest and I fail to understand it. Why you do not declare a minimum for any event for you to participate in is a mystery. As long as you continue to play in cheap events you are preventing the game from ever paying decent prize funds.
It would be in your own best interest if the players would do the same. As long as promoters know that you guys will travel coast to coast for $20,000 added then there is no need for them to pay you properly.

But you need to stop spitting at those who are serving to generate a better future for you and you need to stop supporting events that do not pay you decently. If you guys want to live in poverty forever you can. But you do not have to. Set standards and then live by them and your fortunes can improve rapidly. Or continue the game on its now 50-year decline and put the blame for it on others as you have in your post. But if you really want to know who is to blame for the state of the game today, go find a mirror.

Dragon Promotions is adding $35,000 to the prize fund for a total of $70,000 in the prize fund. If professional players want to play in events that have smaller prize funds than what the WPA specifies, I don't think it is right for anyone to say it's not in the players' best interest to make a living as they see fit.

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

Jerry, As you know I have nothing but respect for you and what you do for pool. There are just 2 things I noticed in your post that I have to say something about.

A) you say that the players should not play in any events that are less that $25k added. I totally agree with you here and actually think that $50k is a little more like it to be honest. However, these players are out there trying to pay the light bill or car payment. They don't have the luxury of skipping all events that are not to the WPA's standards.
B) The WPA takes a % of all the winnings from World Sanctioned events. Therefore they have another vested interest to make the events a larger purse right? Here is a question I have asked a few times to people and so far nobody has been able to giveme a very good answer. Now I know that you may just be the man to answer this for me, I hope. So they take the 5% I think it is from all the prize funds that are WPA sanctioned, what are they doing for that $$. Just sanctioning events?? Telling the promoters the rules? I really amd not trying to be a dick here but I really do not know what the WPA actually does for that 5% of 2.3Mil.
I really hope that this does not come off as attacking the WPA or anyone else for that matter, I want pool to do better.

Mark,

First, the WPA is moving away from the 5% sanction fee scenario. It penalized the top finishers way too heavily in events where the sanction fee came out of the prize fund. (This was never meant to be the case. The sanction fee was supposed to be another business expense like renting tables and venues but an early promoter decided to take it out of the prize fund and others followed suit.) The new model is for each player to pay a modest entry fee ($200 for a $200,000 prize fund) so that the fee is shared equally by all.

What we do with the money:
1) Cover our travel costs. To attend a single event costs the WPA well over $5,000. Add to that the fact that a WPA representative has to travel to all parts of the world to met with potential promoters and their sponsors. Many events require two or three trips a year at an average cost of $3,000 per trip. The cost to the WPA to produce a single World Championship can easily exceed $10,000.
2) We add money to prize funds. Just as a for instance, we added $5,000 to the World Ten Ball Championship this year. We also give the Artistic Pool and Wheelchair organizers $5,000 each to help with their WC events.
3) We now hold "fun" events like the GAP event this past Spring in Manila. where we threw $10,000 in the pot.
And then there are the myriad ancillary expenses involved with running an international sports federation and meeting the IOC requirements. Our phone bills alone can be considerable.

The point I want to make is that no one is making money by being on the WPA board. The President receives a modest stipend because it is a full-time job, and the Secretary gets an even more modest stipend, but the rest of the board serves as non-paid volunteers.

And my suggestion for the players to avoid low-paying events is to build them a profitable future. True, there would be some short-term pain. But you don't make progress without making sacrifices. And the short-term thinking has been killing these guys for way too long.

 

[Black-Balled]

Max: you know I love you like a hometown homie...but I gotta ask:

Howz Charlie like it now!?

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

Dragon Promotions is adding $35,000 to the prize fund for a total of $70,000 in the prize fund. If professional players want to play in events that have smaller prize funds than what the WPA specifies, I don't think it is right for anyone to say it's not in the players' best interest to make a living as they see fit.

Allen, you are misquoting me. I NEVER said that players should not play in the 14.1 event. Indeed, they should. It is a nice payday and the players need more events like this. What I object to on this event is it is being represented in many ways as a World Championship and it is not. If this were the "National 14.1 Championship" it would be receiving nothing but praise from me. But when terms are used to promote an event that are misleading to fans and players alike it is time to speak up. In a press release we received last week Dragon referred to the winner of this event as being a World Champion. They did not need to make that reference, but they did, and in so doing they harm the efforts of those who put on true World Championships.

 

[JAM]

This is truly a pool conundrum, the so-called "world" tournaments.

You know, I do understand why Jerry Forsyth is passionate about explaining the ins and outs of the WPA. In essence, he is 100-percent correct that there must be a world-sanctioning body to give a pool tournament legitimate credibility. There is no question about it. It must be difficult to read half-truths or uneducated posts as it pertains to the mission of the WPA.

I myself have been guilty of not understanding the way the WPA machine operates, but I also believe the WPA has been guilty of not providing information to the public by way of press releases, allowing folks to find out rule changes after the fact.

Notice I wrote "WPA has been guilty." I must give credit where credit is due. The WPA has updated their website in recent times, and I also notice that there are more press releases on AzBilliards Main Page keeping the pool public abreast of the latest WPA happenings.

On the one hand, I can understand Charlie Williams' point of view about calling his events "world tournaments." But on the other hand, look at the history of the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. Some of those titles Earl holds were 64-man fields with very few international competitors. Today, that player field is quite different, more international in scope and 256 players. I'm still kind of miffed why international players should be allowed to compete in the UNITED STATES Open 9-Ball Championship, but it is what it is, I guess.

I'd like to address the BCA's role in all of this. Will they take a more active interest in professional pool as the North American representative for professional pool? I mean, it's all nice and dandy that the American media reps now are responsible for inducting the BCA's Hall of Famers, but what about the professional pool? Is the BCA going to step up to the plate? What difference does the WPA make to an American professional player if the BCA doesn't do the right thing by American professional players?

Allowing Mika to compete in a Chinese tournament courtesy of the BCA doesn't make sense to me and never will. If there were no Americans who could afford to travel to China to represent the United States, I don't think that slot should have been given to Mika just because he couldn't get a ticket to China via his European pool organization.

If the BCA can bend the rules for that, then so, too, should the WPA bend the rules for the 14.1 straight pool tournament produced by Dragon. I understand the strategy of raising the bar to $200,000, but these tough economic times is the reason that's been given for the BCA's non-support for American professional pool. How on earth does it make sense to raise the bar to $200,000 when the entire global economy is spiraling downwards? Well, everyone except for China, I guess. Brazil ain't looking too shabby either.

I respect Jerry Forsyth immensely, though I'm sure he's tired of my rantings on this forum that he's a moderator of. Heck, I'm getting tired of my rantings, too.

I'm ready to accept pool for the recreational game that it is. It should be fun, but as a professional sport? Well, I'm now on the fence about that.

 

[JCIN]

Your first post.

Thanks for posting that information and history Jerry. I try to stay informed on how things work and I learned some things in this post.