The Cue Market...Selling

Russell Cues

Maverick Cue Builder
Silver Member
I have noticed for some time now, as it is quite obvious, cues are not bringing what they used to as far as price. Although there may be some exceptions, even the top level cues are not bringing the same money.

My question is simply this, is it as hard as I believe it to be to sell a good solid custom cue or are pool players looking at cost only ? I have seen some very beautifully inlayed and well built custom cues from very well known cue makers not selling. It seems that despite the lowerd selling prices that there isn't as biga market for cues as well as other custom cues.

All around the economy is off its previous highs, but it is painfully obvious that the cue market is shrinking more each day. Any other thoughts or ovservations please chime in !
 
I have noticed for some time now, as it is quite obvious, cues are not bringing what they used to as far as price. Although there may be some exceptions, even the top level cues are not bringing the same money.

My question is simply this, is it as hard as I believe it to be to sell a good solid custom cue or are pool players looking at cost only ? I have seen some very beautifully inlayed and well built custom cues from very well known cue makers not selling. It seems that despite the lowerd selling prices that there isn't as biga market for cues as well as other custom cues.

All around the economy is off its previous highs, but it is painfully obvious that the cue market is shrinking more each day. Any other thoughts or ovservations please chime in !


Tony,

It's the same (or actually worse) as it's been for 5 - 7 years or more. Too many cue makers producing too many cues. The demand just isn't there to absorb them.

Most of the collectors I know would like to ligten up a bit. The players already have a glut of inexpensive to mid range cues to pick from.

The world needs half of the active cue makers, then producing half as much. If we remain in this funk, that's probably what will happen.

Chris
 
i think the top makers arent having problems selling there cues....however they arent flying of the shelf as they did before.....the top tier makers cues are still in demand.....the problems is the people with 5 to to 10 dimes to spend on a cue are being more careful with what they buy...and they realize that if they wait for a seller to get more desperate they can save a dime or so.....really great cues underpriced still sell within a day of listing....people who have these cues are more reluctent to list them because of the loss they have taken in the past....i have sold maybe 5 cues this year and with all but one i have taken a loss.....not because of impatience just the fact that there was something that i wanted more and needed the free cash...so with all this being said there are some great buys on mid low and high level cues and if one comes up that you have been wanting or waiting for BUY IT NOW.....cues can only go so low from the MASTERS AND UP AND COMING MASTERS....so in the end it might cause them to make less cues or raise there prices in order for them to atleast break even.....it really is a buyers market....so bust out the cash and get that cue you have allways wanted....:thumbup:
 
Less pool rooms = less players= less need for cues= lower prices. Supply and demand. As someone said earlier too many cue makers making too many cues. It almost feels like the beginning of the baseball card collapse. Now the old traditional, historic type cues will go and will probably increase in value. But I just don't think there is much growth in this market. Honestly I can't believe some of the prices people are looking for what I consider ordinary custom cues.

Bob
 
I have noticed for some time now, as it is quite obvious, cues are not bringing what they used to as far as price. Although there may be some exceptions, even the top level cues are not bringing the same money.

My question is simply this, is it as hard as I believe it to be to sell a good solid custom cue or are pool players looking at cost only ? I have seen some very beautifully inlayed and well built custom cues from very well known cue makers not selling. It seems that despite the lowerd selling prices that there isn't as biga market for cues as well as other custom cues.

All around the economy is off its previous highs, but it is painfully obvious that the cue market is shrinking more each day. Any other thoughts or ovservations please chime in !



I have to ask, do you think the market was inflated? I think this could have been possible, and I also think that the supply has by passed the demand at least for high end stuff. I suspect that it will get much worst before it gets better, and I think that everything will depend upon the economy. When people can pay their bills with money left over to spend upon recreational items cue collecting will begin again.

Hopefully in the future things will change.
 
I have to ask, do you think the market was inflated? I think this could have been possible, and I also think that the supply has by passed the demand at least for high end stuff. I suspect that it will get much worst before it gets better, and I think that everything will depend upon the economy. When people can pay their bills with money left over to spend upon recreational items cue collecting will begin again.

Hopefully in the future things will change.

hey craig what part of the market do you think might have been inflated? secondary or cuemakers asking prices?
 
I have to ask, do you think the market was inflated? I think this could have been possible, and I also think that the supply has by passed the demand at least for high end stuff. I suspect that it will get much worst before it gets better, and I think that everything will depend upon the economy. When people can pay their bills with money left over to spend upon recreational items cue collecting will begin again.

Hopefully in the future things will change.

Definitely the prices of anything, cues, cars, computers etc were able to fetch more 4-5 years ago. Also for certain there are more cue makers, making good playing cues, and buyers that have money to spend can and are chosey about what they buy. When there is more disposable income per capita in america then markets will change in all areas. Until then tighten your sphincter !! LOL !!
 
hey craig what part of the market do you think might have been inflated? secondary or cuemakers asking prices?

In my opinion, for sure there were a lot of inflated prices.

I would never name names, but what I saw were a lot of middle tier cue makers stickered their cues at the same high prices as very established, high demand cue makers. They would ask more retail than Barry or Southwest or Ernie were charging, but they would cut deals for half-price or less out the back door. There was definitely a bubble that popped when people wised up and realized their cue "investments" were worth half or far less than what they paid.

The other issue was for a long time there was a lot of buying, including exclusives from Japan. They took any excess for a long time and paid massive premiums, then - poof - they stopped buying all at once.

I'll probably get blasted for saying all of the above, but now I would say there is no real bubble - it's popped - some cue makers are still overpriced but realistically most cues are selling for what they should have been selling for all along.

Chris
 
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i think the top makers arent having problems selling there cues....however they arent flying of the shelf as they did before.....the top tier makers cues are still in demand.....the problems is the people with 5 to to 10 dimes to spend on a cue are being more careful with what they buy...and they realize that if they wait for a seller to get more desperate they can save a dime or so.....really great cues underpriced still sell within a day of listing....people who have these cues are more reluctent to list them because of the loss they have taken in the past....i have sold maybe 5 cues this year and with all but one i have taken a loss.....not because of impatience just the fact that there was something that i wanted more and needed the free cash...so with all this being said there are some great buys on mid low and high level cues and if one comes up that you have been wanting or waiting for BUY IT NOW.....cues can only go so low from the MASTERS AND UP AND COMING MASTERS....so in the end it might cause them to make less cues or raise there prices in order for them to atleast break even.....it really is a buyers market....so bust out the cash and get that cue you have allways wanted....:thumbup:

Tattoo is correct in my opinion. People are still buying but they are picky.
 
You know when you go to a party and there are piles of free drugs on the table and everyone is high and having a great time? (me neither but it looks good in the movies)

And then the next day you see the fallout when everyone returns to reality?

The 90s and early 2000s were the party for cues and cue makers.

Now 2008 you have a recession and people realize that they can't eat pool cues. Luxury items have to go and so a whole swath of middle class folks start dumping cues and not buying more. Added to that is the fact that there was glut of cues in the market even before that. Then top it off with the flippers hyping the shit out of their pet brands and you have a classic bubble that was waiting to be popped. And it popped hard.

I like to use Jack Justis Cases as my personal economic indicator. Pre 2008 a Justis case rarely made it through the first day before being bought for the asking price. Now they sit for days, sometimes weeks with several price drops before someone pulls the trigger. It used to be that a Justis was considered a safe investment and the conventional wisdom was that they only appreciate in value. That doesn't appear to be the actual situation at the moment.

When people aren't snapping up Justis cases then the high end pool economy sucks. :-)

However I do think that the smart investors who have the money are investing in Justis cases but they know it's a buyer's market and wait until the price drops to maximize their return years into the future.
 
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hey craig what part of the market do you think might have been inflated? secondary or cuemakers asking prices?


I kinda think the entire market was inflated across the board. Do you guy's remember when Billiards collectibles really took off around 10 years ago? People were getting $100 plus dollars for a set of clay balls that were made in the 50's. Now, it is very hard to give them away if you include shipping.

The main reason for this and the rise in prices of other Billiards and Pool collectibles was a lack of good information on the subject. Once the INTERNET became a house hold name and information began to flow freely, along with all the great publications ( Billiards Encyclopedia, and the Blue Books of Cues) that have come out in the last 10+ years people began to educate themselves.

However, when it comes to cues I think the supply in the last 10 years has totally exceeded the demand when it comes to both collectible and production cues. Part of this is the large influx of cues that are being imported into the USA and another part is all the people who are making cues. Custom cues in the price range of $350 up to around $800 are being made and sold every day by people like myself. In most cases these cues make great players and they fill a void that existed 20 years ago when people were mainly buying non-custom / production cues. While most of the builders like myself really only are known where they are located if they do good work and they treat their customers right many people will look no farther. It only makes sense that people will readily buy something that they can touch and shoot with before they will buy something unknown and take a chance on how it is going to hit and feel to them especially with how tight money currently is.

In the last 10 years the availability of cue making equipment, supplies, and instructional material for those who want to build cues has become as easy to get as a cold. I think this is mainly due again to the INTERNET
almost anything some one needs can be found on line including the information on how to use it.

I don't know maybe it is only me, I suppose time will tell, but I hope for everyone concerned that things change.

Have a great night.
 
i think it is a selling cue market now as stocks are going down.......with cash on hand, u can make much more on stocks than cues... i have seen more rare cues coming out for sale lately... cues doesn't make money faster than stocks. so people are selling cues at any cost.. stocks grow cues appreciate... but stocks grow much faster. just my 2 cents.
 
I think part of the issue there are so many cues for sale in that $1000-$3000 range that IMO just don't belong there. So you see the ads get bumped for six months. It blows me away to see what some people have paid for some cues and what they have to have to get out of them without losing their ass.

The other thing I have seen is desirable cues priced so ridiculously high as to be laughable. So they stick around getting bumped forever. Quality cues by solid makers priced right still sell quickly. Thing is that price is dropping. A few cases I can remember saying "Wow thats still here" but its still pretty rare.

Frankly theres a whole lot of chaff out there now and its just gonna continue for the foreseeable future. Most savvy collectors I know wouldnt touch 95% of the stuff I see in the for sale forums at any price. But there is an ass for every seat its just gonna get harder and harder to find that ass.
 
I would love to see stats on how many custom cue makers there have been per year over say the last 10 years.

Seems to me like there are so many right now its flooding an already bad market due to the economy.
 
It's as much as reflection of the economy and job market as anything else. The economy is still heading for rock bottom and unemployment numbers don't count people after a certain period when benefits run out or they give up looking, or when such a large number of people are under employed that's not counted at all. True unemployment or underemployment numbers aren't even known, just guessed at. Many previously middle class are now scraping by on one or two very low pay crap jobs instead of their previous carrer level earnings. The money isn't there to be spent.

People like to say the worst is behind us and that we were in a recovery somewhere along the way, but I think that's all a load of crap. I think the stimulus and endless borrowing has just prolonged our inevitable downward spiral and will probably make the final death throws worse.

Our economy always was very flimsy and based on feelings and trust and neverending growth and it's finally becoming pretty clear neverending growth will just lead to our own demise and is and always has been unsustainable.

Just like the laws of physics where what goes up must come down, we are still learning the true laws of economics to this day rather than a lot of previous false info and beliefs people have always put their faith in.

Even those still making the same as they always have are in the mind set of not spending like they used to, and really holding on to every penny and watching what they spend a lot closer, or putting it all into digging their way out of past debt. Getting prepared just in case it does get worse.

Then there are others who do have dispoaseable income and are out of debt, or those who make a living buying and selling stuff, but even they know there are better deals and better places to put your money with better profits and easier turn around in other areas to make money faster and easier than in cues.

Lets not forget that even aside from the economy the sport really is barely holding on at all any more, it's lost any hold on tv and pool halls across the country are going out of business at record rates these last few years. Because of that it's a good time to look for that classic collector table you've always wanted, and that's what I've been doing myself. Got a gold crown for pennies and looking for an anniversary near me at some of the good prices I've seen elsewhere. Cues on the other hand I think are just an expense, expensive cues a needless wasteful expense, not an investment at all like a good deal on a great table might be. But even with a classic collectors market type table that's a long term investment that just may never pay off and should just be considered a treat more than investment.

The classic and collector car/motorcycle etc markets are all taking the same beating. I've seen many things that were guaranteed money now selling for half their previous value or not selling at all. Even some things that are way down being a nearly impossible sale even at half price lately. It's hard to sell anything when people don't have money or aren't buying even if they do much of the time, and we should probably just get used to it... I think it's a great time to buy many things that are priced right now if you have cash, but expensive cues wouldn't ever even make my list and probably will never see good days again, at least not in many of our lifetimes for those of us that are older. If I had a collection of high dollar cues I'd have dumped them already, or would be in a race to get out at any cost regardless of the loss.

Even when a generation does come out the other side of a full on depression, should we go that way, they just never do go back to their old spending ways... Many of us had grandparents that went through it, and they came out very spend thrifty at the very least.
 
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It seems to me prices have been ludicrously high, and this is a long overdue correction.

I don't just mean custom cues here - we overpay on practically every single pool related item. Why? Because we are addicts. We'll pay $1000 for a bit of wood and leather because we believe it will make us better players. We're every bit as addicted as the smackhead with a needle in his arm, and sellers know this.

Pool players need the correction, not the producers.

Production cues are also selling for silly money. I've lost count of the amount of times I've read 'priced to sell' in the description, only to see the price as similar to retail, sometimes more. I note the names of those sellers and ignore them - they'll not get my business, ever. Prices of used production cues should halve the moment they are taken out of the wrapping, and fall from there, depending on condition. I see lots that have been modified, with the seller claiming it adds value! So, it's used, you don't like it and want shut, and it's been modified to your tastes, not mine, and you still want 85% retail price? Sheer madness.

Pool players need the correction, not sellers. Until we stop accepting this, we'll always be ripped off. I spent well over $1000 on pool equipment last year - spent $25 on snooker equipment.
 
I spent well over $1000 on pool equipment last year - spent $25 on snooker equipment.

I've spent less than 1k in over 10 years.

$150 McDermott
$150 Meucci Originals
$150 4x2 leather case
$150 Gold Crown 1 table

I have no idea why everything has always been $150, just worked out that way.
Table time and tournament entries have payed for themselves with probably just barely enough wins to call it free entertainment.
:thumbup:

Lets not ask how much I may have spent on booze and cigarettes and weed and food while playing though, or how much that'll cost me later in health bills. That I don't even want to know... :(
 
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Tony,

It's the same (or actually worse) as it's been for 5 - 7 years or more. Too many cue makers producing too many cues. The demand just isn't there to absorb them.

Most of the collectors I know would like to ligten up a bit. The players already have a glut of inexpensive to mid range cues to pick from.

The world needs half of the active cue makers, then producing half as much. If we remain in this funk, that's probably what will happen.

Chris

This is very true and it still amazes me that with the decline of players and rooms people still want to try their hand at making cues. Recently some decent sized collections were auctioned / liquidated and that just adds to the glut.

Like the card market the older stuff, will rise, not as quickly as it did before, but you just can't get a Gus Szamboti, or a George Balabushka. Unfortunately these cannot be graded and stuck in a hard case like the PSA and other card graders do for sports cards. A system like this would definately help that end of the market.

I also think there is not enough information to fuel the love for cues. The Blue Books helped, but they cannot be produced in a sufficient timeframe. Plus who wants to do the next edition that shows this decline? I don't want to be that guy. :) But I do have an idea for a great website, but it will require a lot of peoples input and some don't have a history of playing well with others. Hopefully the market helps to bring people together.

JV
 
This is very true and it still amazes me that with the decline of players and rooms people still want to try their hand at making cues. JV

I think that when the ecomony picks back up. The number of cue makers will decline. Lots of people found themselves out of work. Some with big severance packages or 401Ks. With all the information on the internet. Anyone with a desire, money and free time can build now. I went from working 60 hours a week three years ago. To 2 hours last week. It's much easier to work in the shop turning wood, with a beer or two, than trying to find a job. If my busness picks up to 60 hours a week again. I dought I will build very many cues.

Just my point of view!

Larry
 
I think the decline in pool, overall, is causing things to be the way they are now. More players are leaving the game than are coming in. I remember in the early sixties when pool was very nearly dead. The Hustler gave pool its needed boost. Unless a blockbuster new movie comes out pool won't survive, as we know it today. Even then the room owners need to do a better job of keeping the interest high. JMO.
 
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