When to tell a player he is on 2....

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VillageSlim

Registered
Playing in a tournament with BCA rules. My opponent just committed his 2nd foul. I'm standing at the table with the cue ball in hand ready to hook him again. I say "so that's 2 right?" he says "yep". So I shoot and hook him again. He makes a legal hit and the game continues.

Now it gets interesting. The official running the tournament was observing the match and after the game says "you know technically it would not have been loss of game", because I told him he was on 2 at the wrong time. By rule, I must tell him he is on 2 just before he shoots....not before I shoot.

Now we all have heard OPINIONS on when a person SHOULD tell a player he is on 2, but this is the first time I have been told it is a rule.

Maybe someone else can set up a poll on peoples opinions.....but, does anyone know of a rule in BCA or elsewhere indicating when this should occur, other than after a player commits his second consecutive foul?
Thanks.
 
I haven't looked at the rules, but here are my thoughts:

It makes sense to tell your opponent that he is on two right after he commits his second foul. At that moment, you have the best chance of clearing up any confusion about when the first foul occurred.

It also makes sense that you tell your opponent that he's on two as he's going to the table for his next turn. This is a refresher and gives both players the opportunity to clear up any foggy memories of the other two fouls.

There is also a thought that you should only have to tell him one time, whether it's right after the second foul or just before his next turn at thet table. It should be on him to remember that he was told the first time.

So, the best course is to tell him both times. This protects everybody.

Now, having said that, you'll have to follow the rules of play for your league/tournament, but you can't go wrong telling him twice.

Roger
 
BCAPL rules state that the offending player must be warned by his opponent or a referee after he commits his second foul and the offending player must acknowledge the warning.

So, probably the sooner the better, but it would seem anytime prior to him shooting again would meet the rule.
 
Here is the wording used on the BCA web site.

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule.
The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.
 
I ALWAYS tell a guy he's on two just before he shoots his potential third foul shot. As others have said, maybe that's not the best, but it is for me.

I think the TD may have been correct upon reading the ruling. You must tell him after you play the safe.

I saw Bugs not tell shannon he was on two once, because it wasn't really a "foulable" shot he was about to shoot. Shannon scratched in a hole, and went on to win that very important game, and then the tournament because bugs didn't tell him.
 
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This rule seems like common sense, as long as you warn them they are on 2 fouls before they take their next shot which may result in their 3rd foul.

From the last few days of threads, I'd say tournament directors are having the same kind of year as the MLB umpires.
 
Rich R. said:
Here is the wording used on the BCA web site.

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule.
The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this rule wholeheartedly regarding when you should tell your opponent they are on 2. I don't know if the WPBA changed it back but at one time they changed the rule to that you are allowed to inform your opponent she is on 2 at any time, including immediately after the 2nd foul.

Why should the player who didn't commit the fouls have to keep reminding himself to inform his opponent just before he gets up to shoot that he is on 2? Talk about a distraction! Informing them right when they commit the 2nd foul should be sufficient. Then the burdon of remembering lies where it should --- on the player who committed the first 2 fouls.
 
BrokeStroke said:
This rule seems like common sense, as long as you warn them they are on 2 fouls before they take their next shot which may result in their 3rd foul.

From the last few days of threads, I'd say tournament directors are having the same kind of year as the MLB umpires.
Click to expand...

SO lemme be sure I got this right: you say you have to tell them they are on 2 after they are on 2?

!:D
 
Right before he/she completes their pre-shot routine.
Make sure you blurt it out loudly, so the counter person at the front of the poolhall actually jumps.
Then, go into a great detailed description of your chronic spastic colon.
 
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I have always told the player he or she is on two after I take cue ball in hand. I never like talking to the incoming player because it might interrupt their train of thought and result into a confutation or considered sharking. I have never had a ref or player say anything as to when I should have warned them. The only time I think you should talk to a player at the table is if it looks like a close hit and ask if I could look at the shot to see if I need to call a ref, or in 9-ball he is shooting the wrong ball.
 
Sometimes common sense can go a long way. What difference does it make when you tell him as long as it is before he shoots?

Mark Twain said "I've found that common sense ain't so common".
 
"bca" rules....

This is copied and pasted from the BCA rules...

1.22 Successive Fouls
This rule applies to games in which there is a penalty for successive fouls.
1. You always begin a game with a successive foul count of zero. When you commit a foul, your successive foul count is one (referred to as “on one foul”) and you incur the normal penalty for the foul.
2. When you are on one foul, if your next shot is legal, your successive foul count resets to zero. If you fail to make a legal shot, your successive foul count is two (referred to as “on two fouls”.) You also incur the normal penalty for the second foul.
3. When you are on two fouls, if your next shot is legal, your successive foul count resets to zero. If you fail to make a legal shot, your successive foul count is three and you incur the penalty indicated by specific game rules. After the penalty, your successive foul count resets to zero.
4. When your opponent is on two fouls: after your inning ends and before your opponent shoots, you or a referee must warn them that they are on two fouls, and they must acknowledge the warning. If the warning is not issued and they foul on their next shot:
a. it is not considered a third successive foul;
b. they incur the normal penalty for a foul, but not the penalty for three successive fouls;
c. their foul count remains at two.1.23 Fouls Not Called
Any foul not called before the next stroke is taken is considered to have not occurred. The failure to call a foul on any previous shot does not restrict the ability to call a similar foul on any future shot. (AR p. 77)

I beleive the highlighted part is what you wanted to know...
 
I've always been told that you are responsible for making SURE your opponent knows they are on 2 fouls. I've had people try to escape it by saying they didn't know.

So,after having a TD agree with an opponent when he said I didn't tell him,I came up with a bulletproof method.

MAKE EYE CONTACT!...and make sure you say it loud enough that anyone else within 10 feet hears it too. Make NO mistake...Tommy D.
 
VillageSlim said:
Playing in a tournament with BCA rules. My opponent just committed his 2nd foul. I'm standing at the table with the cue ball in hand ready to hook him again. I say "so that's 2 right?" he says "yep". So I shoot and hook him again. He makes a legal hit and the game continues.

Now it gets interesting. The official running the tournament was observing the match and after the game says "you know technically it would not have been loss of game", because I told him he was on 2 at the wrong time. By rule, I must tell him he is on 2 just before he shoots....not before I shoot.

Now we all have heard OPINIONS on when a person SHOULD tell a player he is on 2, but this is the first time I have been told it is a rule.

Maybe someone else can set up a poll on peoples opinions.....but, does anyone know of a rule in BCA or elsewhere indicating when this should occur, other than after a player commits his second consecutive foul?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Here's how I would look at it, lets say your opponnent just fouled for the second time and you now have BIH with the eight and nine both hanging in the pocket, it would be rude to say anything.
Another situation:
To confirm #2 scratch, depending on the integrity of my opponent or something else as concerning, I would tell them as I grabbed the cue ball, your on two, RIGHT.........and look em in the eye.
Thirdly, know the rule, or ask the TD first....before you shoot to confirm.
 
Quick official BCAPL response...

BigFish said:
BCAPL rules state that the offending player must be warned by his opponent or a referee after he commits his second foul and the offending player must acknowledge the warning.
Click to expand...

That is not completely true. Tuscon has the correct information in post 15. In BCAPL play, the warning must be given AFTER the opponents inning ends and when the inning for the player in peril begins.

Under WSR, while most seem to agree that the warning must be give at the beginning of the inning of the player in peril, if that is the WPA's intent then there is a grammatical error in WSR 6.14 that allows for a rational argument that the warning may be given at any time after the second foul.

At work now...more on the BCAPL reasoning for the ruling and the WSR grammar later...

Pre-shot routines don't have anything to do with either rule set. The term is undefined and as different as fingerprints. The beginning of the inning, which is defined and discrete, is the key.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
Technical Editor, The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
 
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tucson9ball said:
This is copied and pasted from the BCA rules...


3. When you are on two fouls, if your next shot is legal, your successive foul count resets to zero. If you fail to make a legal shot, your successive foul count is three and you incur the penalty indicated by specific game rules. After the penalty, your successive foul count resets to zero.
4. When your opponent is on two fouls: after your inning ends and before your opponent shoots, you or a referee must warn them that they are on two fouls, and they must acknowledge the warning.


Thanks for all the replies....the above clip shows the rule in question.

Here is why I believe the rule should be changed. Lets say your opponent scratches on the break. You begin your turn with no intention of a 3 foul attempt because the table is a nice layout....so you begin to shoot and during your run, the balls become a little more difficult, so you take more time and your play slows a bit as you decide what to do...then you get to the 4 and miss. Your opponent comes to the table and he is a slow player and takes plenty of time to run 3 balls, and then he scratches.
Knowing the rule you say nothing at this point...and it takes you some planning and time to play the remaining balls which are now quiet difficult with the 9 tied up with the 7....so you play a safe on the 7 and your opponent comes to the table and you say "your on 2".....

So much time has passed.....he can't remember the fouls.....better to advise right after the 2nd foul......not several minutes later......then if there is a question...it can be resolved then.

Just my opinion....
Click to expand...
 
VillageSlim said:
... Here is why I believe the rule should be changed. Lets say your opponent scratches on the break. You begin your turn with no intention of a 3 foul attempt because the table is a nice layout....so you begin to shoot and during your run, the balls become a little more difficult, so you take more time and your play slows a bit as you decide what to do...then you get to the 4 and miss. Your opponent comes to the table and he is a slow player and takes plenty of time to run 3 balls, and then he scratches.
Knowing the rule you say nothing at this point...and it takes you some planning and time to play the remaining balls which are now quiet difficult with the 9 tied up with the 7....so you play a safe on the 7 and your opponent comes to the table and you say "your on 2".....

So much time has passed.....he can't remember the fouls.....better to advise right after the 2nd foul......not several minutes later......then if there is a question...it can be resolved then.

Just my opinion....
Click to expand...

In your scenario, your opponent is only on one, not two, fouls. He made three balls after the first foul (scratching on the break), so that foul no longer counts for the 3-foul rule. The 3 fouls must be on consecutive shots for the extra penalty to apply.
 
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