Tight Pockets

This is actually a complicated subject. I think if you graphed player ability vs frequency of wins all against pockets getting tighter, you'd see the better player win more as the pockets get tighter, YET after you get to a certain tightness, you'd see the weaker player's percentage go up.

Position play becomes so crucial on tight pockets, when they get too tight each player has more opportunities at the table (= favor worse player). I find it very interesting.
 
I have two issues with tight pockets. Disclaimer originally a snooker player and can still hit a ball or two on a 6x12.

1. Most pool halls do not have tables level enough to make very tight pockets reasonable. The drift vs required accuracy is a killer and makes play impractical. Todays fast cloth further exasperates this issue.

2. Tight pockets with slick new-newish cloth play good. Now take the shine off and balls that should go get rejected. This is fine for major tourneys with fresh equipment but the kind of play that most pool halls get between re-clothing doesn't make this piratical. Tables play great for 3 weeks followed by 8 months or more of rejected balls. Now add issue 1 to issue 2 and they table plays poorly.

This is a GREAT comment!! Had never heard it put that way, but so so true. You do need to have good equipment to let tight pockets play the role we want them to play.
 
Here is my last comment. And this REALLY isn't false modesty, I promise.

I find very loose pockets hard to play on. Maybe it is in my head. I see balls that should not go, go on "tight" pockets all the time. When balls don't go it is more often when it gets moist. I really feel that tight pockets many time play "good" (meaning balls that should go, go), and loose pockets have a tendency to take a ball 100% within the facing, yet still not go. It's like "false" pockets. It would be like hitting a golf ball in a hole and it doesn't go.

Then there is the whole aspect of banking and also trying to get the cb 2 rails out with inside when you get straight. I'm telling you, there is more to this than you think..... loose pockets are tough!!!
 
I disagree with this line of thinking. If you want to make pool harder, make the table bigger. Go to a 10' or even 12" table. That is what they do in golf. They lengthen the course. They don't shrink the hole. Leave the pocket size alone.

Of course they do, the last 6x12 table I played on had pockets that made most 9-ball tables look like a joke.

I am happy to go to 10-foot tables for professional competition, I have jumped on THAT bangwagon enough in the last coupe years to attest to that.

But the size of the pockets on the 10-foot tables were they to be decided to be made the norm would have to be decided upon. Because ATM there is no such thing as "standard" pocket sizes. The is NO current accepted standard pocket size in pool and thus we are all left to ask the question IF the pockets were to have a standard side decided, going on into the future, then what official pocket size for professional competition would be best for this sport going on into the future for the next 50+ years.

We have no standard to change from, people act as if tight pockets are already some abberition from some official norm, they are most definately not.

I personally want to see 4.25 or perhaps even 4.125 pocket diamonds on 5x10 tables. I think that is a table that could see professional pool through to the future of the sport in a way that no other setup will properly do. 4.5 inch pockets on a 9-foot diamond are showing us exactly how NOT proper those tables are by the absurd breaking contests that many tournaments turn into.

Size of the table has a limit though, you cannot say "ok we are going to call 4.5 inch pockets standard so now how big do we need the table to be to properly test the pros? You would need that 11 or 12 foot table, and that would screw everything up because that type of table is TOO big for rotational pool where you need to move the cueball more all over the table, every second shot would be with the rest.

So what you do is pick a table size, and IMO 10-foot tables, which were used in pool golden year when it was a VASTLY more popular and profitable sport is that size we need, you can market the sport returning to it's traditional roots even if you have some smart marketing people. It is only THEN that you decide what pocket size would work on that table size to provide the proper challenge for the PROFFESIONAL ranks, and I am talking Ralf Souquet, Thorsten, Lee Van, Alex, SVB, Wu, Yang, Appleton, Mika, Archer, the elite players, of which we now have quite afew in the world. We need a table type that challenges those guys in such a way that huge packages are a rare occurance, not impossible, but they are rare. Both players get chances at the table, and one of the players will eventually have their superior skill cause a lead and eventual win in the match.

And let me tell you, that pocket size on a 5x10 table is not going to be 4.5 inches. A 5x10 table if it wanted to be a proper playing ground for the top end of this sport would need to be at the bare maximum 4.25, and I would guess that 4.125 would work better because already we saw those pockets are quite vulnerable on a 9-foot table by a player brand new to them who got used to them and ran 2 6-packs and a 7 pack.

The 10-foot table would make something of a difference and 10-ball would be harder on it. But my ultimate belief over all is that this game needs to wake up and figure out that if it EVER wants to draw in ALOT more fans it NEEDS 8-BALL to become a major game, and for that to happen we need tables that are properly set up to challenge the pros at 8-BALL. Those tables would be a 5x10 diamond with pockets that are cut 4.125 or 4 inches even.

8-Ball is the only future this game will EVER have, and it NEEDS 10-foot diamond tables and tight cut pockets.
 
I'm sure the better players adjust easily to tight pockets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b629sKeQCx0&feature=related

If this is Table 2 or 3, they are very tight pockets. In this video you'll see them adjusting just fine with their angles. Bustamante even bumped a few balls around to create an easier out. He caromed the 9 to send it closeer to the 8 ball's rail. I'm not sure if that was his intention, but it dosen't look like he is concerned with making any balls the way it played out.

they look like tight pockets.. Do you know the size of the pockets?
 
Allot of great points,
but someone, somewhere find me any player, anywhere in the world, playing in a pro type event, with 4 1/8 or 4 1/4'' pockets, with an object ball three diamonds out from the head rail, an inch off the rail and have whitey come five rails around and land on the other end rail in match play, even hitting the fourth rail would be close enough. This shot I'm telling you NO longer exists in tight conditions, is that ok for the game? If this is ok for the game of rotation 9 or ten ball, then tell me why its ok to remove this shot from the game?

In reference to the force follow shot question above;

So do others feel that by removing this type of force follow shot from our sport is OK? I'm just looking to see if this change of play style is acceptable and no longer should be considered, that's all. In Paul S. days, it was the norm, with the equipment of today, it's gone, are we all ok with that, a simple question.
 
Shots that OP discribes are very low percentage, even on bigger more loose pockets. Somehow I doubt pros would play them very often, no matter what conditions.
The strategy and safety aspect of the game improved dramatically in the last few decades.

Couple of years ago I watched Ralf Souquet play in person during Euro Championships. Average sized 4.5 inch pockets, brand new Simonis 860, nothing too tight or too loose. Well, during the whole 9ball division tournament (which he won of course) he played about 3 or 4 inside english 3 rail shots at most, but only when object ball was quite close to the pocket. Large majority of the time he used minimum cueball movement, lots of simple stun shots. He never once came even close to snookering himself and also was never close to the cushion with his cueball. That's how good he was that week. I think I learned plenty just observing what he did.

However, some of league players who were watching also said that Ralf plays boring pool. Some even criticized him for playing too many simple shots! They were asking all the time "Why didn't he go 3 rails with high inside?" "He used a stun shot here, why?" "He played safety on this shot??? The combo on the 9 was on! It wasn't that difficult, man I would have gone for it!"
I tried to explain to them that Efren Reyes would have played pretty much the same as Ralf if he was here, but no.
They just could not appreciate professionals playing pool. I think they expected to see pros make all those difficult low percentage shots that they themselves attempt all the time in their leagues (and usually fail).
 
Funny I always believed that big pockets leveled the playing field. I will give you an example. Last session in our 9 ball league (on 7 foot valleys with buckets) I had to give a player 4 games on the wire to a race to 7. I lost 3-6. He being a friend of mine wanted to play again. This time we played on my home table. He did not win a game in 2 hours. shots he was accustomed to making, rattled. He saw first hand how you have to elevate you game when you play on tighter equipment. BTW he is not a bad shot either.

I agree with your opinions of making a ball on the break and scratching.

The bottom line, is that who is going to replace all of their 9 foot tables and put in 10 foots? Besides the money that has to be spent by a pool hall owner, he will make less money on table time because he will have fewer tables in his room.

It is much easier and cheaper to adjust the pocket openings.

I am 50+ and I have no problems with the double shimmed pockets on my GCII. I used to have have triple shimmed but the pocket work was so bad, that it took away too many shots. My table is being done soon and I am thinking of getting the pockets back to sub 4.5 using subrail extensions.

I think the moral to the story is you can have tight pockets they just need to be done right.

Agreed, I will pass on this shot on a tight table. So what was the end result?

Another example of how a tighter pocket levels the playing field by taking away a high level shot that only better players have the stroke for.

Other changes that hurt the better player
-Decreased percentage of pocketing a ball on the break, hurts the player who can break and run the best.

-Fewer scratches, benefits the player whio scratches the most.

All of these issues may cancel out once the strronger player familiarizes themselves with tighter pockets, just another learning curve.

I don't see new players enjoying themselves much on a super tight table. Who wants to drive a ball into a rail repeatedly? For many a 9 foot table is already challenging enough with 51/4 pockets.
 
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i think we need two types of tables: for the amateurs and for the pros... just like snooker. There are the club tables with bigger pockets ( where the amateurs don't get frustrated) and the tighter tournament tables where the pros play.
 
A few good pool halls have this kind of setup.

Unfortunately good pool halls are a dieing a slow death.

i think we need two types of tables: for the amateurs and for the pros... just like snooker. There are the club tables with bigger pockets ( where the amateurs don't get frustrated) and the tighter tournament tables where the pros play.
 
...I find very loose pockets hard to play on. Maybe it is in my head. I see balls that should not go, go on "tight" pockets all the time. When balls don't go it is more often when it gets moist. I really feel that tight pockets many time play "good" (meaning balls that should go, go), and loose pockets have a tendency to take a ball 100% within the facing, yet still not go...

There is a reason this can happen. The shelf is deeper on looser pockets.
 
When it comes to pocketing balls, Earl Strickland always hits center pocket. So in his case, the pockets could be 2.5" and he'd still make the shot. Personality aside, he is a tremendous player.
 
Here is my last comment. And this REALLY isn't false modesty, I promise.

I find very loose pockets hard to play on. Maybe it is in my head. I see balls that should not go, go on "tight" pockets all the time. When balls don't go it is more often when it gets moist. I really feel that tight pockets many time play "good" (meaning balls that should go, go), and loose pockets have a tendency to take a ball 100% within the facing, yet still not go. It's like "false" pockets. It would be like hitting a golf ball in a hole and it doesn't go.

Then there is the whole aspect of banking and also trying to get the cb 2 rails out with inside when you get straight. I'm telling you, there is more to this than you think..... loose pockets are tough!!!

Dogsplayingpool made a good point about the pocket shelf having more area for the balls to sit on with wider pocket openings, same is true with tighter pockets, less of an area for the balls to sit on. But on that same note, pocket miters, down angles, pocket facings, and cushions combined make up the majority of the reason why the pocket rejected the ball in the first place, then the increased pocket shelf provides the final rejection by allowing enough shelf for the ball to come to rest and not go into the pocket.

Glen
 
When it comes to pocketing balls, Earl Strickland always hits center pocket. So in his case, the pockets could be 2.5" and he'd still make the shot. Personality aside, he is a tremendous player.

Which is why Earl beat Shane on that gaffe 5'x10' converted snooker table. Shane is not seasoned enough as a Pro to overcome the badly done pockets, he's for lack of a better word, spoiled on being able to play the full pocket when he shoots, instead of focusing on the center of the pocket, and that's why he got beat. Same size table built by Diamond, with Pro cut 4 1/2" pockets, or even the 4 1/8" pockets like what were on the TAR21 table, and Earl would need a Priest to help him win, only to hear the Priest tell him..."God said you have no chance of winning this one son":grin:

Glen
 
Same size table built by Diamond, with Pro cut 4 1/2" pockets, or even the 4 1/8" pockets like what were on the TAR21 table, and Earl would need a Priest to help him win, only to hear the Priest tell him..."God said you have no chance of winning this one son":grin:

Glen

I hope you get the chance to make 1 set of rails with 4 1/8 pockets for one of those 5x10's. It would be the ultimate table for most gambling and potentially be an amazing pro 8-ball playing field.
 
It was pointed out in an earlier post that if the goal is to make pool marketable and more palatable to the general public then yes easier tables should be used. Most people will not appreciate the beauty of simple pattern play and tight safety play. To the average person and most amateurs this is very boring. They want to see 3, 4, and 5 rail position shots, combo's, caroms, banks and everything else. They want excitement plain and simple.
 
Sounds like it might be time to get some glasses!:D Seriously though, to me, the bigger problem is the cloth. Why mechanics feel they have to stretch it as tight as they possibly can is beyond me. I've seen bartables that were faster than the billiard tables in the same room! I once saw a fly by the table, and I swear half the balls rolled a little when that little sucker farted.

The cloth today doesn't need a stroke. It requires just a rolling cb to get around the table. Bring back slower cloth! It doesn't have to be napped, just not stretched so blame tight.:mad:

TAP TAP TAP :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

You nailed it :smile:

Neil nail ^^
 
It was pointed out in an earlier post that if the goal is to make pool marketable and more palatable to the general public then yes easier tables should be used. Most people will not appreciate the beauty of simple pattern play and tight safety play. To the average person and most amateurs this is very boring. They want to see 3, 4, and 5 rail position shots, combo's, caroms, banks and everything else. They want excitement plain and simple.

I cannot believe that all of you just ignored this as though it is irrelavant or as though stumpie71 did not say it at all. We are in the recreation and entertainment business. Is pool more fun to play with tiny pockets? Is pool more fun to watch with players ducking a lot more often because the pocket size has changed the percentages. Has all this made pool more popular?

The pool community does not need poker or smoking laws to make our great game less popular. We will find ways to do it without anyone's help.
 
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