I appreciate the artistry , skill, talent and hard work on hand inlayed cue.
Hand tapered shafts and butts, am not too crazy about.
Hand tapered shafts and butts, am not too crazy about.
Differing views on art of cues.
- Thread starter jhanso18
- Start date
I would first like to appoligize to those i offended. I am sorry and do see the merit of CNC work in a cue. I understand the finished product is what your after, not the process in which it is made. And i would never suggest that learning how to run a CNC machine is easy. Your art is not for me.
I would like to dive further into the rabbit hole, and toss this out there. To me it seems that, CNC makes possible for some, what would be unachievable otherwise. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's cheating, but the challenge of extra sharp, even points, cut by hand should be the goal of the artist. Laying out a design that will auto cut every inlay just seems a little like cheating to me. I think CNC is a double edge knife.
I don't think it so wrong to want to pursue excellence with out assistance of computerized equipment.
I would like to dive further into the rabbit hole, and toss this out there. To me it seems that, CNC makes possible for some, what would be unachievable otherwise. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's cheating, but the challenge of extra sharp, even points, cut by hand should be the goal of the artist. Laying out a design that will auto cut every inlay just seems a little like cheating to me. I think CNC is a double edge knife.
I don't think it so wrong to want to pursue excellence with out assistance of computerized equipment.
It is easy to downplay CNC machinery without having used the technology. I think if you ask any cuemaker with CNC experience which requires more time to learn, the answer would be CNC equipment. Sure, once an individual program is finalized, you're set. However, cuemakers spend many, many hours learning the software programs, setting up the machines, maintaining them, and then designing and refining new patterns and programs.
Do CNC patterns get re-used? Certainly- just like panto patterns. It is still up to each cuemaker whether or not to repeat their designs.
Great cues have been made both with and without the aid of CNC equipment. It still comes down to the skill of the cuemaker. In my opinion, it would be an error in judgment to dismiss the use of CNC machinery out of hand.
Best,
~Beau
Do CNC patterns get re-used? Certainly- just like panto patterns. It is still up to each cuemaker whether or not to repeat their designs.
Great cues have been made both with and without the aid of CNC equipment. It still comes down to the skill of the cuemaker. In my opinion, it would be an error in judgment to dismiss the use of CNC machinery out of hand.
Best,
~Beau
The pursuit of excellence is what it should be about- no matter your choice of tool.
Best of luck,
Beau
Printing drawings and pasting those drawings on wood then tracing them with a chisel isn't art either.
Sorry.
You cannot guarantee that wasn't done .
You came to a forum known for their expertise and didn't get the answer you were looking for. The answer is no, hand made (as you defined it) is not superior to machine assisted work be it manual machines or cnc all that operate under the direction of a human operator. This is a forum for sharing ideas. You shared your idea and most would not agree with you based on probably several centuries worth of experience. Don't feel put down, nothing said was meant that way I am sure. It was however amusing imagining someone with a few hand tools trying to fashion a precision pool cue.
so extra sharp points that are even is what it takes to qualify a cue to be acceptable.without this the cue has no value and not be considered an accomplishment. so if a point was so sharp and fine that you needed a magnifying glass to view it,this would be art and a top cue.
bill
Not exactly. Look I obviously stepped on some toes, so for what it's worth I appriciate the CNC crowd, but respectfully disagree.
I do find it a little funny how insulted and insulting some of you can be over nothing. A difference in opinion doesn't mean an attack. A simple, "i dissagree, and this is why" would have been alot nicer to see. But atleast I now understand some of the types of people that are on here.
Good day to you all. I anxously await my new lathe.
-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
I do find it a little funny how insulted and insulting some of you can be over nothing. A difference in opinion doesn't mean an attack. A simple, "i dissagree, and this is why" would have been alot nicer to see. But atleast I now understand some of the types of people that are on here.
Good day to you all. I anxously await my new lathe.
-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
I can understand your perception of cnc vs handmade but I do dissagree.
In my opinion Art is what is concieved in the mind. An Artist paints what he dreams up first. So to me to judge an artist is two parts. One there is the ability to visualize or conceptulize the art and two to exucute that vision. So in the case of the painter it is his ability to phisically paint the picture in his mind. The paint and brush are his tools. In cues the CNC is just the tool used to execute the concept of what the cuebuilder dreams up. If said tool enables the artist to better realize what he has dreamed up does that make him less of an artist? CNC has just improved our industry and enabled us to build much nicer cues. At the end of the day if all you can dream up is diamonds on a pointed cue it doesnt matter if you use CNC or not that is the extent of your genious. Having said all that I do have admiration for those makers who can widdle out a pocket with a razor blade and a sharpened file but those are just skills. That doesnt make them more artistic. Artistic genious and skills are two differant things and in this industry to be considerd GOOD you need both. That is my take on it.
In my opinion Art is what is concieved in the mind. An Artist paints what he dreams up first. So to me to judge an artist is two parts. One there is the ability to visualize or conceptulize the art and two to exucute that vision. So in the case of the painter it is his ability to phisically paint the picture in his mind. The paint and brush are his tools. In cues the CNC is just the tool used to execute the concept of what the cuebuilder dreams up. If said tool enables the artist to better realize what he has dreamed up does that make him less of an artist? CNC has just improved our industry and enabled us to build much nicer cues. At the end of the day if all you can dream up is diamonds on a pointed cue it doesnt matter if you use CNC or not that is the extent of your genious. Having said all that I do have admiration for those makers who can widdle out a pocket with a razor blade and a sharpened file but those are just skills. That doesnt make them more artistic. Artistic genious and skills are two differant things and in this industry to be considerd GOOD you need both. That is my take on it.
if you get a lathe, the hand art idea goes out the window.
you might get your butt busted a little about your thought train but don't quit posting.even when they start to get twisted they will still offer up some help when you need it.
bill
We need more drama.
The highest form of this being hand cutting, turning, finishing, etc. The major influence into this style and construction is my current friend and cue maker. I share the view, that all aspects of the cue should be made by hand.
Oops!
Hi,
Ask your cue making friend if he can make points like this by hand and repeat around the A-Axis to match pre made ring geometry from another non CNC indexer. I think not! Thats a rabbit hole he can't accommodate with a sharp knife.
Rick
One of Mr. Hoppe's recent simple inlay designs which took over 100 hours and 7 revisions of verifying & machine/mill testing to perfect the pocket, part, tool path interference sizing and cutter compensation. It all started with a pencil and paper during his commuter train trip downtown. The art was created before the Cad or Cam applications were performed.
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find a nice stick and a sharp rock.hold stick between noes and toes.turn stick by hand and shape round with rock ==== hand art. if you are going to have a clausing and hs tool bit you might as well have cnc.
bill
You might as well argue that people who drive to the grocery store instead of walking, are cheating. You go ahead & walk and limit yourself to how much you can buy because you simply can't carry that much, and it takes a very long time & lots of effort. Or you can drive there, get anything you need without worry, and have the rest of your day to spend getting more done.
I don't understand your logic. If CNC is cheating, then how? If CNC is not capable of sharp points & sharp inlays, then somebody forgot to tell Dennis Searing, Bob Manzino, Black Boar, etc. If you & another builder were given the same exact design, but you use your method and the other guy uses CNC, when those cues are complete & laid next to one another, which one will the customer prefer? For the same money, which will the buyer choose? Thinking that sharp edges are limited ONLY to the human hand is very naive & ignorant to the majority of CNC built cues of the last decade. I can think of many, many inlaid cues that could not have been built WITHOUT CNC. I can't think of any inlaid cue built by hand that couldn't be built better with CNC. If you have an example, show it.
I don't understand your logic. If CNC is cheating, then how? If CNC is not capable of sharp points & sharp inlays, then somebody forgot to tell Dennis Searing, Bob Manzino, Black Boar, etc. If you & another builder were given the same exact design, but you use your method and the other guy uses CNC, when those cues are complete & laid next to one another, which one will the customer prefer? For the same money, which will the buyer choose? Thinking that sharp edges are limited ONLY to the human hand is very naive & ignorant to the majority of CNC built cues of the last decade. I can think of many, many inlaid cues that could not have been built WITHOUT CNC. I can't think of any inlaid cue built by hand that couldn't be built better with CNC. If you have an example, show it.
Well, with all honesty a manual pantograph will do very fine work in the hands of a good operator., cnc is not totally essential. Except for the most high end builders, most use a cnc only for the inlays. Every other part of the cue from material prep to shaft turning is done with manual machines. I am considering a lathe even under power feed as a manual machine.
I think the OP has some idea you put a piece of wood in one end of a mysterious cnc machine and a cue comes out the other end. The builder can be a complete dunce and go in the cue business, all he needs is the capital for the right equipment. The OP may feel insulted but his post, whether meant that way was quite condescending. I would be curious who this cue maker making these masterpieces with a pocket knife is.
RBC
Deceased
To the original poster:
First, I think I understand your position, and maybe some of the reasons behind it. I've actually had this conversation a few times before. It seems as though the others who I've talked to with the same position really didn't understand how cues are made. Not, just the CNC ones, but also those believed to have "hand cut" points that are sharp and even. I've just never seen anyone cut the v-groove points, where the V comes up and out of the surface of the forearm, by hand. Not really because it's easier, but because it just isn't very likely to be successful by hand. Now I have seen many who carve out a pocket and inlay a part, both done by hand. The funny thing is that this is more like the method used for panto or cnc inlays than the commonly referred to V cut points. These V cut points are most commonly cut with a manual milling machine, but have been known to be cut with a router on the lathe as well.
Now, as far as "Art Form" go. Art is in the eye of the beholder, as has been already stated. So, what you like it what you like, simple as that. The question I have is this. Is it the look you like, or the way it's made? The reason I ask is that one really is the Art side of this equation, and the other is the execution side. Show me the "Art" you like, and I assure you that I can duplicate in very great detail, and it may not be done by hand at all. So, the question is, do you like the look, or the method? One is art, and the other is execution.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
First, I think I understand your position, and maybe some of the reasons behind it. I've actually had this conversation a few times before. It seems as though the others who I've talked to with the same position really didn't understand how cues are made. Not, just the CNC ones, but also those believed to have "hand cut" points that are sharp and even. I've just never seen anyone cut the v-groove points, where the V comes up and out of the surface of the forearm, by hand. Not really because it's easier, but because it just isn't very likely to be successful by hand. Now I have seen many who carve out a pocket and inlay a part, both done by hand. The funny thing is that this is more like the method used for panto or cnc inlays than the commonly referred to V cut points. These V cut points are most commonly cut with a manual milling machine, but have been known to be cut with a router on the lathe as well.
Now, as far as "Art Form" go. Art is in the eye of the beholder, as has been already stated. So, what you like it what you like, simple as that. The question I have is this. Is it the look you like, or the way it's made? The reason I ask is that one really is the Art side of this equation, and the other is the execution side. Show me the "Art" you like, and I assure you that I can duplicate in very great detail, and it may not be done by hand at all. So, the question is, do you like the look, or the method? One is art, and the other is execution.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
I understand perfectly what goes into a cue, CNC and non-CNC.
I have appolgized for coming off insulting/condesending. What is messed up are the smart ass remarks instead of simple correction and polite discusion. I have attacked no one as I have and I feel my personal view is far different than others. I have made no back handed comments yet attack attack attack.
It seems some of the pro CNC crowd are a little insecure about their production.
Incase I wasn't clear before here is the simple break down of how I feel.
Power lathe = good
CNC = bad
Hand cutting or using a hand milling machine or pantograph = good
CNC mill = bad
This is an over simplifiction. I have said I was wrong, CNC is an art form that is difficult but I am going to pursue other means and ways. What is so wrong with this?????
As far as I'm concerned with his 100 hrs into one inlay that is INSANE! But what seem like "cheating" to me is he can now duplicate it in 5 min. Or less. I get it was hard and impressive, just doesn't trip my trigger.
Incase any of the hostile crowd missed it. I AM ADMITTING MY FAULT. It is art, just not the kind I prefer.
-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
I have appolgized for coming off insulting/condesending. What is messed up are the smart ass remarks instead of simple correction and polite discusion. I have attacked no one as I have and I feel my personal view is far different than others. I have made no back handed comments yet attack attack attack.
It seems some of the pro CNC crowd are a little insecure about their production.
Incase I wasn't clear before here is the simple break down of how I feel.
Power lathe = good
CNC = bad
Hand cutting or using a hand milling machine or pantograph = good
CNC mill = bad
This is an over simplifiction. I have said I was wrong, CNC is an art form that is difficult but I am going to pursue other means and ways. What is so wrong with this?????
As far as I'm concerned with his 100 hrs into one inlay that is INSANE! But what seem like "cheating" to me is he can now duplicate it in 5 min. Or less. I get it was hard and impressive, just doesn't trip my trigger.
Incase any of the hostile crowd missed it. I AM ADMITTING MY FAULT. It is art, just not the kind I prefer.
-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
In reality most all cues built by most cue makers are built the way you say. Many don't own cnc even guys who have been doing it for a long time. Has nothing to do with a desire to practice a higher art, it is just not necessary to build a fine cue. I personally don't care for a cue that has a ton of inlays for the sake of having a ton of inlays. I like cues with a classic look like old Szamboties and early Joss.
I also like a nice selection of woods that can complement the looks of a cue as much as any inlay. For me in cues, less is always better. More people are on the same page as you then you seem to realize, it is not an uncommon view. I think the biggest knock on the overly inlaid cnc cues is, the perception of added value when as you said, once programed the cue can be made almost as a production piece.
I do not know many artists, but the couple I do know, do not have limits on the tools for their creativity.
Lasers have introduced a new level to art that can not be made any other way. Not just holograms, but through stereo lithography, they can now make what used to be impossible to produce.
There is a limit to what can be produced on a 2d template, but introducing 3d is another exciting extension that is taking place.
Art is an individuals thing. What one like another does not.Some see curly or burl wood as beauty, others think of it as reject wood that is not straight.Some see it as inferior, and should only be used as fire wood.
Art is the final product with expression and meaning.
There are lots of ways to achieve the finished product. These being the method of production, what ever it entails.
For me, the art of a cue, is when it is made as an individual item, like a painting. Although the subsequent copies and prints, are identical, it is not the same as the original art. It then just becomes a picture for decoration, rather than an artistic piece.
So for cues, when a series of the same pattern is reproduced on many cues, I view it as being just decoration. I do not see the artistic flare for the individual.
Lasers have introduced a new level to art that can not be made any other way. Not just holograms, but through stereo lithography, they can now make what used to be impossible to produce.
There is a limit to what can be produced on a 2d template, but introducing 3d is another exciting extension that is taking place.
Art is an individuals thing. What one like another does not.Some see curly or burl wood as beauty, others think of it as reject wood that is not straight.Some see it as inferior, and should only be used as fire wood.
Art is the final product with expression and meaning.
There are lots of ways to achieve the finished product. These being the method of production, what ever it entails.
For me, the art of a cue, is when it is made as an individual item, like a painting. Although the subsequent copies and prints, are identical, it is not the same as the original art. It then just becomes a picture for decoration, rather than an artistic piece.
So for cues, when a series of the same pattern is reproduced on many cues, I view it as being just decoration. I do not see the artistic flare for the individual.