Differing views on art of cues.

To the OP i respect and get your point but every builder has their own ways to show their creativity, thats why you get some different views as well that may not favorable to yours. But i know a certain cuemaker who has no CNC in using his inlays but hes work were top notch and was famous in this industry, and a cuemaker uses CNC on his inlays works as well. The point is everyone wants a clean, and top craftmanship, if a builder can do it by using his only hands like your maker friend, then i salute his perseverance to do it because i know it was not very easy. but we cannot limit ourselves if theres another way to make it best in the highest level. In my early days of cuemaking, all the design were all made by manual hand cut, and i can say to myself that making inlays by hand is not a problem to me but still there is a big difference on the two, the manual hand and the cnc one, theres something on each method that can amazed every eyes can see, depends on the people of what is art for him.
We are humans and always looking for the best and new, as a result change is constant.
By the way, i still using manual for my inlays on all my cues except for the points, and the good thing is, there is still a force driving and pushing me to try the use of CNC, when the right times comes.

regards to all,
Al
 
I understand perfectly what goes into a cue, CNC and non-CNC.

I have appolgized for coming off insulting/condesending. What is messed up are the smart ass remarks instead of simple correction and polite discusion. I have attacked no one as I have and I feel my personal view is far different than others. I have made no back handed comments yet attack attack attack.

It seems some of the pro CNC crowd are a little insecure about their production.

Incase I wasn't clear before here is the simple break down of how I feel.

Power lathe = good
CNC = bad

Hand cutting or using a hand milling machine or pantograph = good

CNC mill = bad

This is an over simplifiction. I have said I was wrong, CNC is an art form that is difficult but I am going to pursue other means and ways. What is so wrong with this?????

As far as I'm concerned with his 100 hrs into one inlay that is INSANE! But what seem like "cheating" to me is he can now duplicate it in 5 min. Or less. I get it was hard and impressive, just doesn't trip my trigger.


Incase any of the hostile crowd missed it. I AM ADMITTING MY FAULT. It is art, just not the kind I prefer.
Sour grapes. It sounds like CNC is beyond your grasp, so you attempt to convince yourself that it is somehow less valid to use better tools.
qbuilder NAILED IT, ("CNC is a tool") go back and read his post again if you're still confused.
Then realize that HE DOESN'T EVEN USE CNC. Yet he doesn't feel compelled to badmouth technology for the sake of making himself feel superior.
 
I'm not offended by your thread. I might of worded it a little strong but respect your opinion.

Reading your posts I wonder where you got the idea hand built is best. I've never had a customer ask for hand cut inlays. So far not one customer cares how I cut a cue as long as it's done with quality.

I'd like to see his hand built cues. Does the builder have a Web site? Hats off to anybody building cues without modern machinery.

I have to point out something. The guys cutting panto inlays are calling guys like myself to get their patterns. These patterns get used over and over. Where's the art in that? I did my research before investing the money and CNC was the smart choice. The only difference between CNC and Panto is the builder doesn't have to sit at the machine pushing and pulling the spindle around. I've used both machines so I speak from experience.

I've turned shafts, butts, and made stitched rings on the CNC and didn't like it. In my shop the CNC is for decorations only. For the guys using CNC for other tasks more power to them. After the CNC is finished the knifes are used to sharpen the pockets. That adds time to the build and most customers would rather save the cash and have round corner inlays.

CNC is art. IMO
Look at any BB or Manzino and tell me they're not artists. Wood being the canvas and a CNC is the brush. If a customer asked me to cut the inlays with hand tools I'd take the build and charge accordingly for my time.


What's your plan after you get your lathe? If you're looking to build for profit time is a factor. Figure $200-$300 is what your cues will start at. How many hours can you put into a cue for that price.
 
I understand perfectly what goes into a cue, CNC and non-CNC.

I have appolgized for coming off insulting/condesending. What is messed up are the smart ass remarks instead of simple correction and polite discusion. I have attacked no one as I have and I feel my personal view is far different than others. I have made no back handed comments yet attack attack attack.

It seems some of the pro CNC crowd are a little insecure about their production.

Incase I wasn't clear before here is the simple break down of how I feel.

Power lathe = good
CNC = bad

Hand cutting or using a hand milling machine or pantograph = good

CNC mill = bad

This is an over simplifiction. I have said I was wrong, CNC is an art form that is difficult but I am going to pursue other means and ways. What is so wrong with this?????

As far as I'm concerned with his 100 hrs into one inlay that is INSANE! But what seem like "cheating" to me is he can now duplicate it in 5 min. Or less. I get it was hard and impressive, just doesn't trip my trigger.


Incase any of the hostile crowd missed it. I AM ADMITTING MY FAULT. It is art, just not the kind I prefer.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums


I'm sorry if you feel that I was attacking you, that certainly wasn't my intention.

After I read this post, I now realize that we have a case of miss communication. When you said "To find a cue maker that builds with sharp, even points and cuts free hand is incredible" I felt that you were ruling out using a mill and turning the cranks by hand. It appears as though I was wrong. I apologize.

So, if that is your quest, I wish you all the best. You'll learn, have allot of fun, and some aggravation too. I think you'll find that it isn't quite as hard as you might think now. At least not until you get to the finish part!

Good Luck!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
I am not looking to make a profit from cue building. I am compelled by the challenge. I already have means of imcome so for me it is purely the challenge to build my own.

I recently stared learning how to work on tables as well. I just enjoy pool so much that I want to be affluent in every aspect.

I really enjoyed reading the last few post and I feel I must say again I am sorry to the CNC crowd again. I did not mean to offend you folks.

I do have a question for a CNC guy can you make razor sharp points with a cnc or do you have to go back and sharpin them?

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
Yes. Mount a V-groove bit and angle the cut.

2 questions
Can you post a link to your friends hand built cues? At worst he'll get a little exposure.

I'd like to know why Panto inlays are good and CNC are bad?
 
I am not looking to make a profit from cue building. I am compelled by the challenge. I already have means of imcome so for me it is purely the challenge to build my own.

I recently stared learning how to work on tables as well. I just enjoy pool so much that I want to be affluent in every aspect.

I really enjoyed reading the last few post and I feel I must say again I am sorry to the CNC crowd again. I did not mean to offend you folks.

I do have a question for a CNC guy can you make razor sharp points with a cnc or do you have to go back and sharpin them?

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

Hi,

Non radius sharp corners in the pocket have to be pre drilled with cnc mill and the index for the center point must be placed in a location where it just allows the part's sharp corner to have clearance within the pocket. When using light colored parts in ebony the clear epoxy fills in the gaps and they become invisible under the finish. Using other color combos requires some matching dyes to be added to the gluing procedure.

The journey of 1000 miles starts with the first steps. Don't forget to smell the roses along your path.

Good Luck,

Rick
 
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I do have a question for a CNC guy can you make razor sharp points with a cnc or do you have to go back and sharpin them?

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

Well, keep in mind that a CNC only controls the tools we have used for years. So, yes, a CNC controlled machine can cut anything a manually controlled machine can cut.

Most use a CNC machine to cut inlay pockets and parts, just like a Pantograph would do, only controlled by the computer. In doing so, the pocket will have a radius at the corners equal to that of the cutter. Some will fill this area with dark epoxy, some will cut it out by hand, and still others will make the part with the corresponding radius so they fit together perfectly. I think this is what you are used to seeing.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
I do have a question for a CNC guy can you make razor sharp points with a cnc or do you have to go back and sharpin them?

Very easily, yes. In fact, show me ANY points made "by hand" that are sharper & cleaner than points cut with CNC.

Do you understand the differences between CNC and panto mills? Both have 3 axis of movement (CNC can have more), up down, in out, left right. Both use the same spindles with the same cutting bits. Both have patterns that dictate their limit of movement. Both make a pocket in the cue and an inlay to fit. The CNC has automated movement. The panto is moved manually. The CNC has a digital pattern. Pantos have physical patterns. Both machines, once that pattern is created, replicate the inlay an infinite number of times & does it fast. Creating the pattern is what consumes time, with either machine. The major difference is the complexity of pattern that can be achieved. CNC is virtually limitless. Pantos are limited to very basic, sometimes crude, elementary shapes. Further more, it's IMPOSSIBLE to create exactly perfect patterns for a panto mill without the aid of CNC. I'd estimate 95%+ patterns are actually created on CNC, for pantos. You can technically create patterns for the panto, but they will be left to the mercy of your personal craftsmanship & human error, and limited to only the most crude & simple shapes. If you want better patterns, you'll have to get them made on a CNC.

Pantos are cheaper than CNC and only require the builder to understand the machine to create inlays. CNC requires the builder to learn computer controls, programming, and a knowledge of the actuators & controls that automate the mill movement. Therefore, a panto is a great way for a newer builder to enter the craft of inlaying. You don't have a huge learning curve, but you are also limited in your capabilities. There are infinitely more designs that can be created with CNC than with pantos. If all you ever want to do is diamond & oval inlays, a panto would be just fine. If you want to expand, then CNC in the ONLY way. You can ONLY create intricate pieces of abstract & fine cue art via inlays, with a CNC. This is fact, not opinion, and every actual cue maker understands it. Nobody has ever said using a panto is wrong. In fact, some buyers really enjoy seeing what guys like Ron Haley can do with a panto. But discrediting the use of CNC because it has automated movement is naive. That same logic is cruise control vs. using the foot pedal. That's the only difference.

But don't take my word for it. Go buy your machines & learn for yourself. Inlay some cues with your panto mill using patterns that you created, not patterns that came with the machine. If you use patterns that come with the machine, then CNC played a role in your cue and that is BAD according to your "opinion". So make your own patterns & be sure to show us all how artistic & sharp & perfectly even those inlays & points are. As you can tell, i'm being sarcastic. I know better because I have experience & understand that those notions are nonsense. You do not yet have that experience based knowledge. Until you do have, you'll just continue to think i'm an asshole who got his feathers ruffled over your "opinion". But once you actually build some cues & get that experience, realize what's actually possible & what's not, then you'll be singing a different tune. Me nor anybody else wants you to fail or wishes bad on you. I wish you luck just as everybody else does.
 
I do have a question for a CNC guy can you make razor sharp points with a cnc or do you have to go back and sharpin them?

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

You are only equating cnc points with flat bottomed points that are in fact an inlay. Not all points cut with cnc are flat bottomed. You can just as easily cut conventional spliced in points. All the cnc does is make it faster and easier. You don't seem to know what cnc is. It is just a assistant doing the work you program.It will make the points in any manor you wish, it is up to you to decide what you want. With all due respect, you don't really know what you are talking about, yet you challenge guys on here you do it for a living.
 
You are only equating cnc points with flat bottomed points that are in fact an inlay. Not all points cut with cnc are flat bottomed. You can just as easily cut conventional spliced in points. All the cnc does is make it faster and easier. You don't seem to know what cnc is. It is just a assistant doing the work you program.It will make the points in any manor you wish, it is up to you to decide what you want. With all due respect, you don't really know what you are talking about, yet you challenge guys on here you do it for a living.

I challenged no one. I stated an opinion and sought input. What I got was attacked.

I thougt and still think I have a pretty good opinion. It is obviously more edjucated now.

Like I said before people here came off the hinges over my opinion. If they were insulted I appologize 3 times now.

Simple fact is this, it my opinion. If you disagree fine. State your opinion, don't put me on trial.

I can only hope my cue maker friend decides to chime in. I would put his knowledge and skill against any builder in the world.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
I challenged no one. I stated an opinion and sought input. What I got was attacked.

I thougt and still think I have a pretty good opinion. It is obviously more edjucated now.

Like I said before people here came off the hinges over my opinion. If they were insulted I appologize 3 times now.

Simple fact is this, it my opinion. If you disagree fine. State your opinion, don't put me on trial.

I can only hope my cue maker friend decides to chime in. I would put his knowledge and skill against any builder in the world.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

I'd like to see his work. I as others will respect the hands on building and would enjoy seeing his craftsmanship.
I will add a little negative. If he's using Panto he rides with us.

Thinking about this thread has made a few things come to mind. A taper bar on a lathe is nothing more then a 2 axis Panto. We all build with some sort of panto:D

Your opinion is great. Your posts are why I'm fallowing this thread. I'm trying to figure out if you're promoting an idea or really believe it's better. I'd hate to be the guy that miss-read a thread.

Please explain why panto is better then CNC.

Your friend should post his work. Lots of people are watching this and pictures always make a thread better.
 
I challenged no one. I stated an opinion and sought input. What I got was attacked.

I thougt and still think I have a pretty good opinion. It is obviously more edjucated now.

Like I said before people here came off the hinges over my opinion. If they were insulted I appologize 3 times now.

Simple fact is this, it my opinion. If you disagree fine. State your opinion, don't put me on trial.

I can only hope my cue maker friend decides to chime in. I would put his knowledge and skill against any builder in the world.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
You mention Keith cues several times in your posts is that who you are referring to?
Do you understand the difference between a spliced point and an inlayed point?
You also say you like to play with a 15 ounce cue, is it also your opinion then players are all playing with too heavy of a cue? I would venture to say there are no pros who play with that lite a cue or many players period.
 
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Very easily, yes. In fact, show me ANY points made "by hand" that are sharper & cleaner than points cut with CNC.

Do you understand the differences between CNC and panto mills? Both have 3 axis of movement (CNC can have more), up down, in out, left right. Both use the same spindles with the same cutting bits. Both have patterns that dictate their limit of movement. Both make a pocket in the cue and an inlay to fit. The CNC has automated movement. The panto is moved manually. The CNC has a digital pattern. Pantos have physical patterns. Both machines, once that pattern is created, replicate the inlay an infinite number of times & does it fast. Creating the pattern is what consumes time, with either machine. The major difference is the complexity of pattern that can be achieved. CNC is virtually limitless. Pantos are limited to very basic, sometimes crude, elementary shapes. Further more, it's IMPOSSIBLE to create exactly perfect patterns for a panto mill without the aid of CNC. I'd estimate 95%+ patterns are actually created on CNC, for pantos. You can technically create patterns for the panto, but they will be left to the mercy of your personal craftsmanship & human error, and limited to only the most crude & simple shapes. If you want better patterns, you'll have to get them made on a CNC.

Pantos are cheaper than CNC and only require the builder to understand the machine to create inlays. CNC requires the builder to learn computer controls, programming, and a knowledge of the actuators & controls that automate the mill movement. Therefore, a panto is a great way for a newer builder to enter the craft of inlaying. You don't have a huge learning curve, but you are also limited in your capabilities. There are infinitely more designs that can be created with CNC than with pantos. If all you ever want to do is diamond & oval inlays, a panto would be just fine. If you want to expand, then CNC in the ONLY way. You can ONLY create intricate pieces of abstract & fine cue art via inlays, with a CNC. This is fact, not opinion, and every actual cue maker understands it. Nobody has ever said using a panto is wrong. In fact, some buyers really enjoy seeing what guys like Ron Haley can do with a panto. But discrediting the use of CNC because it has automated movement is naive. That same logic is cruise control vs. using the foot pedal. That's the only difference.

But don't take my word for it. Go buy your machines & learn for yourself. Inlay some cues with your panto mill using patterns that you created, not patterns that came with the machine. If you use patterns that come with the machine, then CNC played a role in your cue and that is BAD according to your "opinion". So make your own patterns & be sure to show us all how artistic & sharp & perfectly even those inlays & points are. As you can tell, i'm being sarcastic. I know better because I have experience & understand that those notions are nonsense. You do not yet have that experience based knowledge. Until you do have, you'll just continue to think i'm an asshole who got his feathers ruffled over your "opinion". But once you actually build some cues & get that experience, realize what's actually possible & what's not, then you'll be singing a different tune. Me nor anybody else wants you to fail or wishes bad on you. I wish you luck just as everybody else does.

Excellent post :)
 
Hi,

After Eric's post there is not much left to say on the issue at hand!

The CNC topic aside, before you even get around to doing an inlay you will have to learn how to build a cue that makes the grade to your own personal standards because believe me once you put a cue out there any flaws will be seen by everyone who touches that cue and offers an opinion. Therein lyes your reputation as a cue maker.

The art of Cue Making requires you to modify and make many adjustments to machines until each operation you perform reveals and out come that is completely repeatable. I spent seven years of my life involved in constant tinkering and tweaking all of my machines until I nailed the outcome every time with complete confidence. You will have to do this also.

Inlays on a cue is just gingerbread for the person who has the extra money to spend. Cues are not something you need, they are something you want. Because you spend so much time doing it you must charge for that time and as a result inlayed cues get expensive.

Not being a machinist before starting to make cues put me at a disadvantage and I had to learn by the hard knocks method. This was before I discovered this forum and started to hear opinions of the many talented people who weigh in here.

If you are going to build cues, you are in the right area to learn by observation with a questioning attitude. Urban legend and a misconceptions about hand inlays for example will not be in your vocabulary in the future. No matter how careful and how steady your hand is your inlays will be flawed in comparison to ones that are done by other CMs using panto or CNC.

It will be your choice, "flawed or perfect". Don't forget the public will be the judge, not your "obsolete credo" doing it by hand. Don't forget inlays are put into a cue after all of the other operation have been performed. If you screw it up sometimes you can fix it but sometimes the cue just becomes a fancy tomato stake and a huge waste of you production time and materials. It makes no sense to sell a cue that is flawed because it speaks of your workmanship today and tomorrow. :deadhorse:

Rick
 
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Regardless of the vehicle, it is, in the end, the spirit of the maker that embues a cue with life.

Chris

I would first like to appoligize to those i offended. I am sorry and do see the merit of CNC work in a cue. I understand the finished product is what your after, not the process in which it is made. And i would never suggest that learning how to run a CNC machine is easy. Your art is not for me.

I would like to dive further into the rabbit hole, and toss this out there. To me it seems that, CNC makes possible for some, what would be unachievable otherwise. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's cheating, but the challenge of extra sharp, even points, cut by hand should be the goal of the artist. Laying out a design that will auto cut every inlay just seems a little like cheating to me. I think CNC is a double edge knife.

I don't think it so wrong to want to pursue excellence with out assistance of computerized equipment.
 
To pretend that technological advancement is some how a negative is just plain stupid.
A cue is just a tool like a ball bat, a hockey stick, or a golf club. It's design, concepts and sole function is to provide the player with the best playing instrument that can be achieved. To do less is a waste of the cue makers times and the customers money.

Cue makers understand this, they don't delude themselves with magical thinking or fantasy as to how to achieve their objective. Can a cue be artistic, of course, but never at the expense of the first objective.
 
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jhanso18, you may be confusing your own question by assuming "art" and "skill" are the same. old school cues like bert schrager, frank paridise, etc, were built as you suggest-by hand. they all were very talented, people who's hand "skills" were amazing. there is also a cuemaker (i think in england or ireland) that doesn't even use a lathe. its all done with spoke shaves. "art", on the other hand, is personal - not mechanical. more creative inspirational expression and any tool available to achieve the desired effect is valid. i understand your appreciation for the "combined" talents of skill and art (as i primarily build full splice butterfly cues) but the end result of those who use modern means to achieve their goals can't be considered "second class". alot of times, i am amazed and humbled by those who come up with wonderful inlays and patterns for their cues. i don't inlay my cues as i use the jointing techniques to get the look i like. heres an interesting thought, the old cuemakers were using the most modern techniques for their time to build cues. i think if they were around today, they would continue to use the most modern. although, bert personally told me that he wasn't interested in cnc because he comfortable how he did things(not because he was against it). he may have, had he been younger.
 
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i see the merit of CNC and pantograph, but i think this is more pure, more difficult, and infinately more impressive.

Gypsy Queen is the apex of cue building in my eyes. function and form seamlessly intertwined. this cue is has it all, and plays just as good as anything out there. the artistry of this cue is unmatched in my eyes.


I'm sure this could be done with relative ease w/ use of CNC but should the goal be as an artist, or human being for that matter be, to beat the machine. I'm sure you might be able to find microscopic imperfections in this cue, but isn't that really the soul of the cue?

Rip me down, tear appart my theory but i will continue to believe that this is the way the "art" of a cue is created. By the hand of the creator, and not the machine being told what to do.

------------------

I feel i must add that CNC cues are beautiful alot of time, and play great. I do see the merit of that form of creation, but for me it falls short of "Art." Art is for the individual to interpret, and although some consider it art, I now see it as more of a grey area. the patern, and concept are most certainly art, but he contructed final product to me, sort of falls short. I would like that to to a painter, some one that learns to write a progam on a computer that creates a beautiful picture, vs. a painter that uses brush and canvas. Some would argue they are one in the same, but IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, it is more grey area.

I would say maybe my view is off, maybe I need to evolve my opinion more, but the beautiful thing here is that I don't have too. And you folks that think differently don't have to either. It's what make the world go round.


For some the pursuit of perfect by anymeans is art. I can see why some would think this. I don't share that view, and i see why some would argue and take offense to my point of view. I can not seem to relay that I truly mean no offense to these folks. There stuff is just not for me.

I own a business and my product is not for every one. I try to change thier minds but i certainly don't get offended when they tell me it's not for them.

I would also like to say again that i would never venture into building cue for profit. I am just a very passionate person, and i would like to try this outlet becuase it is something i am passionate about.

One last thing, your opinions when calmed down are great to read. I really have and I'm sure will continue to enjoy this discussion.

thanks to all of you,

Justin Hanson
 
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