Differing views on art of cues.
- Thread starter jhanso18
- Start date
Beautiful work of art.
This one is pretty artful too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ5zFAXfIng&feature=related
This one is pretty artful too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ5zFAXfIng&feature=related
Uh, by calling all these talented cuemakers a bunch of hacks, you threw the first insult, in spite of sugar coating.
Incidentally, if you use a lathe, by your standards your cues will never be art.
You seem to want to stir the pot. I disagree. No more no less. I threw no stone, and re-worded my original post. I meant to say no computerized assistance, and preferably no panto.
But since I disagree with you, you put words in my mouth and attack me.
Lets humor the masses. Some of you folks wanted an example. I put up the nicest cue I've ever seen. Showed what I am aiming at and now I see the same back handed posts. It's not that hard. If you disagree, lets hear it. But don't attack my mis-wording, or me. I called no one a hack, and I didn't poke fun, or intentinally insult any one.
Lets see some ejucated, civil debate.
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Please, accept his apology if you are a cnc fanatic.
No doubt about it.There are some very skilled people about.Those are nice cues, very appealing artwork.
I made at work ,a job on the CNC mill, took less than 3 mins to ruf in 3 holes in a 40 mm HT steel plate. 1hole Ø30, 1 Ø50 ,1 Ø60 Finishing to final size to took alot longer, but the whole job was quicker than trying to drill the 3 holes, let alone finish size them.
Although the hand work looks to be very well executed, I have not seen anything that could not be reproduced with modern machine tools.
Just for some info, cnc machines can use broaches and chisels etc, just need to make the appropriate setup to do it, and the right code.
I am not pro nor anti CNC. Neither do I want to put down the skills required to make hand inlays etc and artwork etc.
What counts is the final product.
Second, can you get paid for your time and artwork.
Unfortunately , alot of famous art people of the past, were never recognised for their artistic works until they passed on.
Today, artist need to get remuneration for their works and efforts or else they starve.
There is a word for crafts people that work for companies creating fine works of art and are paid very little in return. It is exploitation.
There are advantages to hand working a cue and there are disadvantages as well.
Only the maker can decide the appropriate method.
Been some really great posts and links and pictures.
Thanks
I made at work ,a job on the CNC mill, took less than 3 mins to ruf in 3 holes in a 40 mm HT steel plate. 1hole Ø30, 1 Ø50 ,1 Ø60 Finishing to final size to took alot longer, but the whole job was quicker than trying to drill the 3 holes, let alone finish size them.
Although the hand work looks to be very well executed, I have not seen anything that could not be reproduced with modern machine tools.
Just for some info, cnc machines can use broaches and chisels etc, just need to make the appropriate setup to do it, and the right code.
I am not pro nor anti CNC. Neither do I want to put down the skills required to make hand inlays etc and artwork etc.
What counts is the final product.
Second, can you get paid for your time and artwork.
Unfortunately , alot of famous art people of the past, were never recognised for their artistic works until they passed on.
Today, artist need to get remuneration for their works and efforts or else they starve.
There is a word for crafts people that work for companies creating fine works of art and are paid very little in return. It is exploitation.
There are advantages to hand working a cue and there are disadvantages as well.
Only the maker can decide the appropriate method.
Been some really great posts and links and pictures.
Thanks
That cue has no inlays. Not a single one. It's all v-groove splicing. It's done either on a lathe with a router, or a milling machine. The actual "design" is the layers of v-grooved points. Comparing v-groove points to inlays is apples & oranges. That cue could easily be created with CNC. I'm not taking anything away from Keith, as I feel he is an awesome cue maker with his own great artistic touch, but that cue can be achieved by anybody who is accomplished in the craft of cutting points & recut points.
That particular cue requires a lot of time & patience, and a skilled craftsman to get everything evenly centered, but requires nothing more than the ability to use any one of multiple tools capable of creating v-grooves in the wood. He cut nothing by hand. If by hand you mean he cranked the hand wheel, then ok he built it by hand. But even him turning the hand wheel, the machine followed the taper it was set to & the spindle with cutting bit did the actual cutting. I'd venture to say he didn't even turn the hand wheel, that it was power fed.
If your perception of "by hand" means no CNC, then there are as many or more cues built "by hand" than by CNC. Even the cues built using CNC are structurally made & assembled "by hand", then inlaid and possibly tapered with CNC. Again, once you begin building cues yourself, you'll see things in a completely different light. A cue maker with CNC doesn't put a stick of wood in one end and a finished cue comes out the other. Therefore, quite literally every single cue on earth had some "by hand" craftsmanship to create it.
pick a direction !!
are you going to use tools or not use tools?
you say you are going to get a lathe,that happens to be a modern tool.then you try to qualify the lathe as an old school tool and it represents hand crafting and the cnc a new school tool that does not.they are both modern tools.that cue you posted was not done with a spoke scrape and a exacto knife,modern tools are involved.if you really want to go old school start looking for some spoke scrapes and cancel the lathe.
bill
Hi,
I think this guy Keith is a very talented man to say the least but something seems a little rotten in Denmark.
Question # 1:
Is this guy still living and if so does he know the things you are saying here?
Question # 2:
Are you saying that those rings are not made using an indexing jig and the billets where cut by hand and not a slitting saw?
Obsevations:
Below are some pics I found of one of Keith cues from a old thread. Notice how the pin is engraved dated and serial numbered. He must have done that with a special tiny dremel tool free hand to keep the art thing going on.
And did you notice that rubber bumper. I bet he made the molds by hand and taped the gum trees personally. Thats what a real artist would do. Not the CNC gang that hangs out here.
Now the points on that cue, probably hand chiseled with a Indian Arrow head that was perfectly flat and sharp. I think I read somewhere that he lines himself up with the north star and uses a boy scouts compass to cut the ring stitches with a tiny saw. Someone also told me he mixes up his own recipe for phenolics in his basement in a 55 gal drum over a wood fire because using natural gas would not be the same in an artistic perspective.
I think that you don't have a clue and that you are just an idiot and Keith Groupie who is try to act cool due to an association with another cue maker. Your points are a only made to put CMs here in a bad view for accepting CNC as a tool. That is non productive. IMO, Your just an Internet Troll who likes to stir the pot.
Rick
I apologize to Keith where ever he is for my humor and do not mean to cast any negativity to his talent, that speaks for itself.
Hand etched pin
Hand made molds for the artistic bumber
Hand chiseled v grooves for the points.
Ring stitches cut very precisely with a small saw to get the perfect indexing geometry.
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I think this is a very good post. And you are correct in "by hand" aspect. As I've already said, I meant to say no computerized assistance.
I also think you are right that my views will change when I start building, I will still try for excellence, w/ out computers.
In case any one missed it.
I MADE A MISTAKE. I MEANT NO COMPUTERIZED ASSISTANCE. Electric ok computer not so much. (in my humble eyes)
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Actually art is simply the creation of a person's mind using whatever tools they choose to use. Thus an image created through Photoshop can be art.
No CnC machine creates a cue by itself. Often the guy who does his inlays by hand will be faster because the guy using the CnC tool instead of the chisel has to work and rework the design until he gets it just right.
The difference is when the CNC guy gets it just right then he can duplicate the work precisely every time and can move on to changing the design via different materials and tweaking it to add or subtract elements.
The whole thing has been debated a million times. If you want hand precision then the women who work at the Kao Kao cue factory in China win hands down.
They put water transfer decals on cues. By eye with no guidelines. They have to do four per cue for the cues with points. They are able to do almost every cue with precision making sure that the points line up and are evenly spaced and they do it in seconds per decal or else the decal is too dry and tears.
Is this art?
I have seen laser engraved creations that are out of this world. I own a laser engraver and I wouldn't have thought to make these things in a million years. Although I own the same tool I am a hack compared to the real artists who take that tool and transform material into wonder.
So your friend does cues with no CnC. Ok that's fine but if he is creative then he would still be creative with a CnC. By the same token the cue maker who is creative with the CnC would still be creative if he chose to use only a chisel to do his work. Neither one is better than the other one simply by virtue of the tools used.
I personally don't see it as THAT big a deal to mark out inlays and hand chisel them out. I see it as a skill that can be learned by anyone with enough practice. Developing a good eye for balance though is much harder.
I have excellent case makers who work for me because I have taught them how to make cases the right way. But almost every time I try to get them to design a case they don't come up with anything "good". This despite constant exposure to good designs. Why not?
Simply put it's because they have not tried to design anything else in their lives, they have not looked around their world with a critical eye and thought about how they could make things better.
Art does not come from the tools. Art comes from the soul and the experience.
The OP really doesn't know what he is talking about at all. If you read through his posts he say in one post he has only been playing pool for about a year. I don't think he has any knowledge base to draw any kind of real opinions from at this point. He sounds enthusiastic though. I think Mr. Hanssen may be a little embarrassed by this thread if he read it. I don't suspect the OP really know what Keith does to build cues or apprenticed in his shop.Hi,
I think this guy Keith is a very talented man to say the least but something seems a little rotten in Denmark.
Question # 1:
Is this guy still living and if so does he know the things you are saying here?
Question # 2:
Are you saying that those rings are not made using an indexing jig and the billets where cut by hand and not a slitting saw?
Obsevations:
Below are some pics I found of one of Keith cues from a old thread. Notice how the pin is engraved dated and serial numbered. He must have done that with a special tiny dremel tool free hand to keep the art thing going on.
And did you notice that rubber bumper. I bet he made the molds by hand and taped the gum trees personally. Thats what a real artist would do. Not the CNC gang that hangs out here.
Now the points on that cue, probably hand chiseled with a Indian Arrow head that was perfectly flat and sharp. I think I read somewhere that he lines himself up with the north star and uses a boy scouts compass to cut the ring stitches with a tiny saw. Someone also told me he mixes up his own recipe for phenolics in his basement in a 55 gal drum over a wood fire because using natural gas would not be the same in an artistic perspective.
I think that you don't have a clue and that you are just an idiot and Keith Groupie who is try to act cool due to an association with another cue maker. Your points are a only made to put CMs here in a bad view for accepting CNC as a tool. That is non productive. IMO, Your just an Internet Troll who likes to stril the pot.
Rick
I apologize to Keith where ever he is for my humor and do not mean to cast any negativity to his talent, that speaks for itself.
Hand etched pin
Hand made molds for the artistic bumber
Hand chiseled v grooves for the points.
Ring stitches cut very precisely with a small saw to get the perfect indexing geometry.
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Then carry on & enjoy your journey. I don't use CNC, either, not because I don't believe in it but simply because nothing I do requires it. SW & Bluegrass are two others who do not use CNC. I'm sure there are many who don't. It's not necessary. But it is a very helpful tool.
I never claimed to apprentice w/ keith and I never said I was eperienced. In fact I asked keith before I put his name in any of this. I have been playing pool seriously for about 2 years. And fun fact keith also plays with a 15oz.
I have said from post one I don't have alot of experience. Still reading on here and learning alot everyday. I want to be ready for the challenge. Heck I've already learned alot in this thread.
I never claimed to be right or wrong simply my opinion which several on here have been more than stand offish about.
Fact of the matter is this, I am inexperienced and learning fast. I due play with 15oz cue. So what, earl plays with a 72" long 23oz monster, don't see anyone talkin smack about that. Non of you know me, or keith for that matter. I don't speak for keith, and I havnt said keith said this or that.
SOME OF YOU PEOPLE JUST DON't GET IT. THIS IS MY OPINION, NOT FACT, NOT RIGHT OR WRONG.
I am just looking to see what people think comprises "art" in a cue. I don't care what you think about what I think. I want to hear about what you think and feel about art in cues.
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I am just looking to see what people think comprises "art" in a cue. I don't care what you think about what I think. I want to hear about what you think and feel about art in cues.
Should we care what you think ?
Why do you care what we think , really ?
You're beyond persuasion anyway.
Make your first cue then let's see it.
After a few days and nights of crying ( believe me you will ) , you'll either make it or quit ( 75 % do within two years ).
Right now , you're just soliciting opinions which you don't hold in any regard anyway.
Go buy that lathe, river of woods , then make cues .
Should we care what you think ?
Why do you care what we think , really ?
You're beyond persuasion anyway.
Make your first cue then let's see it.
After a few days and nights of crying ( believe me you will ) , you'll either make it or quit ( 75 % do within two years ).
Right now , you're just soliciting opinions which you don't hold in any regard anyway.
Go buy that lathe, river of woods , then make cues .
Then to give you a constructive answer; building a pool cue has nothing to do with art, it is just basic to advance machining that results in a product. Design can be considered artistic but the execution is accomplished through machining and an advanced knowledge of the materials involved: one of the hardest parts to learn by the way. So, step one, is maybe taking a course in machining at a local industrial school. Tons of reading machining books and learning your tools and their uses inside and out, as well as a lot that is not found in "any" books. Then many many hours doing hands on learning and experimenting developing your machining skills and knowledge.
You notice I haven't mentioned the word "Art" since the first line because building cues has nothing to do with art any more then machining a cam shaft. I will also mention that building a cue has nothing to do with playing pool. Many guys think because they like pool they would like to build cues, they are completely different endeavors.
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I liked this view. It is very different from what I'm use to hearing. I beg to differ on the view, but it does certainly make me think a little.
Very cool input in regard to macine classes. I would recommend the same. I have some experience machining different stuff, and I am deffinately studying more before I start.
Thanks for the input.
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You won. LOL
I'm on vacation (Lincoln City BCA) and haven't been online.
Thanks for the pics. I searched his work and enjoyed looking at his cues. Nothing I've posted has anything to do with Keith or his cues.
I see indexing and 2 axis panto work. If I'm wrong correct me. Almost every builder uses the same technology.
You have a lot to learn. Starting threads and/or posting is a learning experience in its self. I wish you luck in building and look forward to seeing your work.
Regarding CNC.
Jerry McWorter started off using a panto and eventually, with the help of Thomas Wayne, moved on to CNC.
He did so, not because he was unable to use a panto properly, but because the cnc allowed him to expand upon his ideas and expedite the time in which it takes to accomplish the actual work.
Let us not forget that alot of cuemakers have families. Time expended bent over a panto, when a machine can do it, is potentially time away from family.
They can also save a man, who has spent countless hours with his neck looking down, a bit of pain.
I've known Jerry for a good part of my life and have the privilege of calling both him, his wife and her son, and their son my friends. I can say, without reservation that he is one of the most gifted and hard working people I have ever met.
The machines are the grunts and he is the architect who could also do all the work himself...
Jerry McWorter started off using a panto and eventually, with the help of Thomas Wayne, moved on to CNC.
He did so, not because he was unable to use a panto properly, but because the cnc allowed him to expand upon his ideas and expedite the time in which it takes to accomplish the actual work.
Let us not forget that alot of cuemakers have families. Time expended bent over a panto, when a machine can do it, is potentially time away from family.
They can also save a man, who has spent countless hours with his neck looking down, a bit of pain.
I've known Jerry for a good part of my life and have the privilege of calling both him, his wife and her son, and their son my friends. I can say, without reservation that he is one of the most gifted and hard working people I have ever met.
The machines are the grunts and he is the architect who could also do all the work himself...
Sold those Gorton panto and a small mill to Judd iirc.
That small mill was really nice. I haven't seen one like it outside of Judd's shop.