Differing views on art of cues.

jhanso18

jhanso18

Broken Lock
Silver Member
Starting to look at cue lathes. And I have an itch that needs scratching to build my own stuff.

That being said I started thinking about the world of cue creation and the differing views on construction, materials, and technique. The view I have started to form is this:

The construction of a cue is that of a swordsmith. You build first for function, then for form. Taking no short cuts in process, nor material, as they will be used in battle.

The highest form of this being hand cutting, turning, finishing, etc. The major influence into this style and construction is my current friend and cue maker. I share the view, that all aspects of the cue should be made by hand. No computers, no cnc, etc. I feel this is to cheat the cue of being what I consider to be the highest art form. The degree of exellence that is required to make a cue entirely with no electronic assistance is amazingly difficult. To find a cue maker that builds with sharp, even points and cuts free hand is incredible.

I know of one builder that builds this way, and it is amazing what comes out of his shop. He seems to build the most intricate cue I have played with, as well the best PLAYING cues I've picked up. (which I find even more impressive)

That exemplifies cue building in my humble opinion. That being said I would love to hear yours.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
jhanso18 said:
Starting to look at cue lathes. And I have an itch that needs scratching to build my own stuff.

That being said I started thinking about the world of cue creation and the differing views on construction, materials, and technique. The view I have started to form is this:

The construction of a cue is that of a swordsmith. You build first for function, then for form. Taking no short cuts in process, nor material, as they will be used in battle.

The highest form of this being hand cutting, turning, finishing, etc. The major influence into this style and construction is my current friend and cue maker. I share the view, that all aspects of the cue should be made by hand. No computers, no cnc, etc. I feel this is to cheat the cue of being what I consider to be the highest art form. The degree of exellence that is required to make a cue entirely with no electronic assistance is amazingly difficult. To find a cue maker that builds with sharp, even points and cuts free hand is incredible.

I know of one builder that builds this way, and it is amazing what comes out of his shop. He seems to build the most intricate cue I have played with, as well the best PLAYING cues I've picked up. (which I find even more impressive)

That exemplifies cue building in my humble opinion. That being said I would love to hear yours.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
Click to expand...


well i really dont see how not using any electronic devices will build a good cue. router & lathe=electric

also if you use a taper bar or a CNC its basically the same thing for tapering the big advantage is you can build new tapers on a whim with cnc compared to making a taper bar.

i like the swordsmith refrence.

invest some money see how you do.:thumbup:
 
jhanso18 said:
I'm sorry I should have been more clear, no computerized assistance.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
Click to expand...

pick a zone somewhere between using a flint edge and a stick to using CNC.seems like you are leaning towards the flint knife.

bill
 
jhanso18 said:
Starting to look at cue lathes. And I have an itch that needs scratching to build my own stuff.

That being said I started thinking about the world of cue creation and the differing views on construction, materials, and technique. The view I have started to form is this:

The construction of a cue is that of a swordsmith. You build first for function, then for form. Taking no short cuts in process, nor material, as they will be used in battle.

The highest form of this being hand cutting, turning, finishing, etc. The major influence into this style and construction is my current friend and cue maker. I share the view, that all aspects of the cue should be made by hand. No computers, no cnc, etc. I feel this is to cheat the cue of being what I consider to be the highest art form. The degree of exellence that is required to make a cue entirely with no electronic assistance is amazingly difficult. To find a cue maker that builds with sharp, even points and cuts free hand is incredible.

I know of one builder that builds this way, and it is amazing what comes out of his shop. He seems to build the most intricate cue I have played with, as well the best PLAYING cues I've picked up. (which I find even more impressive)

That exemplifies cue building in my humble opinion. That being said I would love to hear yours.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
Click to expand...

Hi,

Can you share his name? I hope he gets the big bucks for his hard labor.

We use computer CadCam software to make our geometric artwork for inlays and pockets. I would argue that the art is created in the design and the software is just the vehicle that takes you to the job.

Working with a pro like Mr. Hoppe has taught me all of the little nuance's required to get a inlay to fit into a pocket with close tolerances inspected by a jaundice eye.

There are hundreds of hours that have to be labored into a new cue design to see it finished on the cue for the first time.

Not using a CNC will limit artistic aesthetics and production IMO.

If someone wants to do hand inlaying for some reason, more power to them with all the respect due. I am sure he is not cutting his point grooves by hand, that would be pointless.:killingme:

Post your cue when it is done, I am sure we will all will appreciate it.

Rick G
 
Bebot's son..

He's like Mervin Baltista?
I believe Mervin is one underrated talented guy..
Inlaying with broken hacksaw blade knives.
Talent in it's purest form..
I can appreciate hand craftsmanship like his..
Saw his 30" hand reamer.. Next to his cup of ?Coffee?..
I can appreciate looking at that kind of talented work..

Your friend's talent would be appreciated..
JMO..
Alton.. :smile:
 
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I wouldn't mean to insult your art being as art is but interpretation of any thing. I feel that hand cutting, or cutting inlays with machine that is not computerized. Cnc use more specifacally is not art in MY eyes. It is my opinion. It's not the machinery rather the means in which your patern is created. I would compare it like this. A hand painted picture vs. photo shop. Both take skill but in my eyes photo shop is not art.

This is my opinion, not fact. I am just looking to discuss. I am interested only in hearing other views, not arguing. I'm not looking for a heated exchange. I'm sorry if I insulted any one.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
To find a cue maker that builds with sharp, even points and cuts free hand is incredible.


Can you explain the free hand methode?

Mario
 
jhanso18 said:
I'm sorry I should have been more clear, no computerized assistance.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
Click to expand...
When you said no electronic assistance I was about to post that I thought I was the only one with a real working treddle lathe. But it is more of a novelty in our shop as we certainly use a lot of electricity here.
 
Photoshop

Looks like art to me.
Photoshop-Wallpapers-20.jpg
 
Hand built cues????

I'd break out the carving knife and cut every inch of your cue. Your $1500 cue just turned into a $5000 cue and it won't look as good. If you want I'll hand file the pin? That'll cost an extra $300. Can I buy the bumper or do you want me to make that by hand? That's another $50 option if you want to pay it.
Good luck keeping the lights on. My bad, who needs electricity.

Sorry but this thread makes me chuckle. IMO

I want your opinion on Panto inlays.
 
Graciocues said:
Hand built cues????

I'd break out the carving knife and cut every inch of your cue. Your $1500 cue just turned into a $5000 cue and it won't look as good. If you want I'll hand file the pin? That'll cost an extra $300. Can I buy the bumper or do you want me to make that by hand? That's another $50 option if you want to pay it.
Good luck keeping the lights on. My bad, who needs electricity.

Sorry but this thread makes me chuckle. IMO

I want your opinion on Panto inlays.
Click to expand...

excellent ;) !!!!

even i can fully understand the "hand made is art" point of view , how can we forget we are in 2011 , 21th century !!!!
as final user, all i care is the result, aesthetic or technical . Who care if the design was hand-made, using a pen and -many- pieces of paper, or a computer ...
Then , if:when hand-made is all, should we avoid the use modern materials too? what about modern glues ? what about phenolic-based materials for collar , ferrules ?

even in Art , there are evolutions ... Vids, pics, are now worked on PC or Macs...

You know what ? when i see the pics of the Gracio's Brunswick 360 tribute cue , then all I can say is "WAWWWWW, that's a pure beauty". And to be honnest, i don't care -as "final user", if it was hand-made or not ...all i can see is my "feeeling" about this pure beauty ...

everything is in the heart of the craftsman in fact, the technology is more a matter of personnal preference, of $$ to spend on tools, woods....

guys, that's only my personnal opinion, i'm an humble end-user ...
 
Cue-building on the whole is an art-form.
Just as is guitar making, pottery or kites.
However, be mindful that just because it's an art-form doesn't mean that it's
guaranteed to be considered 'good' art.
You can crumble-up a sheet of paper into a ball and call it your art
though you may be the only one in the world that sees it that way.
Just as 'beauty lies in the eye of the beholder', so is it with art.

A pleasant little jaunt but I don't think that's the point the OP is trying to make.
I believe the point is the distinction btwn CNC built and non-CNC built.
Today, both are considered art-forms though this day won't last forever.
Once the manufacturing sector adopted CNC it was inevitable that it would find it's way to cue-making.
It's new, it's fresh and innovative but will soon become commonplace.
Then it will no longer be art.
We are only moments away from the time when a Lucasi will become as intricately inlaid as a Black Boar.
Will it still be considered art? I think not. It will be too common.

Turning wood on a manual lathe or a CNC machine makes no difference.
You're still turning squares to rounds. It would be a stretch to consider either an art-form.
The debate rises prominently when applied to inlays.
CNC Inlays are certainly an art-form, for now.
They serve no functional purpose in a cue other than as an expression of art.
When they become as common on a cue as an Irish linen wrap, they will no longer be art.
The current art-form of CNC is in the design, the program and the execution.
Once that becomes commonplace for all CMs, will CNC still be considered art?
Consider that the most highly prized and sought-after cars in the world are made by hand.
It's not that the builders can't afford CNC like Ford or GM.
It's that they understand the difference.

KJ
 
I guesse I need to clarify yet again I wasn't looking for a fight. All of your smart ass remarks attacking my view and non of your own. This is a forum for sharing idea's.

It's just my opinion. It can be done and that's how I would like to do it. Way to make a guy feel welcome. I attacked no one just shared a view, looking for other views.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
making a cue without a cnc

mr jhanso
you kinda attacked every cue maker that uses a cnc. (cheating) not true art
i made my cnc dont really know how to use it yet but im working on it.
not as easy as it looks.
but in the spirt of just having a little fun making all kinds of stuff .
here is a little note from all the do it yourself cnc ers.
i hope you enjoy this good luck in your cue making venture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AZrlHxg0Uk&feature=related
mike
 
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I still compare it corvette vs. Lamborgini. Both good. But I'll take Bull over Bowtie.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
jhanso18 said:
I guesse I need to clarify yet again I wasn't looking for a fight. All of your smart ass remarks attacking my view and non of your own. This is a forum for sharing idea's.

It's just my opinion. It can be done and that's how I would like to do it. Way to make a guy feel welcome. I attacked no one just shared a view, looking for other views.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
Click to expand...

Hi,

I have not seen any smart ass stuff everyone has just given their opinion.

Go to the cue collectors show this month and tell the guys who spent 25 grand for a cue that they did not pay for the art work on the cue.

Not trying to read your mind but the time, effort and talent it takes to bring a new creative design concept to a cue must not be part of your experience. You don't just push a button and poof, here is your design art cue. Using CNC is no different than using a brush or a pallet knife other that the fact that you must do it in a foreign language and in code.

I respect and acknowledge you opinion but it doesn't hold water when presenting to professional cue makers.

Art is created in the mind and interpreted by ones eye and mind. If you have to quantify how the expression was produced, I am afraid you have missed the forest for the trees. Any limitations put on art makes no sense because the logic makes zero sense.

Art exists in the eye of the beholder and is completley subjective. Adding an objective statement " it's not art if you use a computer" is a circular argument and an oxymoron.

Jmo,

Rick
 
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CNC is a tool. It is capable of much finer tolerances than your hands. It's not like you hit a button & it builds the cue for you. People who assume CNC is not work or doesn't require skill, are ignorant to the actualities of using CNC in cues. By ignorant, I mean uneducated, unknowing, not stupid. Forming an opinion so bold before you actually know what's involved in CNC work is pretty shallow minded, IMO. Study the use and ART & skill of CNC and then reform your opinion. I promise you, if sword makers had computers on hand that could aid them in their craft, they'd have used them. Modern sword makers who do it as an art form may not be using CNC because they want to display their personal, physical artistic skill. But those swords aren't going into battle. How many police officers & military soldiers have sword collections? How many carry those swords on their job? They don't. They use guns. Guns that were made with a CNC mill. How many carry combat knives? Those combat knives were made & sharpened on a CNC mill.

I'm not saying great cues cannot be made without CNC. But to count CNC out because it's computerized is ignorance. It's a tool. If I were inlaying cues or offered different tapers, i'd certainly be using CNC. My shop has no use for it currently as my cues are basic and all have the same tapers. In situations like this, CNC has no real advantage as a tool. If I were to expand the complexity of my cue designs and dimensions, then it would be the best tool for the job and i'd use it. Hope that makes sense.
 
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