Who accredits and empowers the WPA?

dr9ball

dr9ball

"Lock Doctor"
Silver Member
Given the recent discussions about the 14.1 tournament held in New Jersey this year and whether or not it was a World Championships. We know that it was not accredited by the World Pool Association.


My question is who accredited/sanctioned the World Pool Association? What body gives the WPA its authority (in the USA and other countries)?

Did all the Pro Players vote and the majority agreed that they would only count WPA approved and sanctioned World Championships.


If another group of people got together and proclaimed they were going to provide their own standardization of billiard sports world wide and sanction World Championships it doesn't seem like anyone could stop them. They can publish their own "record" books.


My questions are not to continue the discussion about DP and their tournaments. They are aimed at realizing more about the WPA.

Thank you for your comments.
 
They are self appointed but are supported in their efforts by their political ties to the BCA and various other organizations... Basically I think they grease the wheels and since no one else is doing so... They win...

My opinion is no secret and I have stated it on other threads... The WPA is trying to own pool on the cheap.... Sadly in the US the people and organizations that should be banding together to fight the WPA to provide direction are too busy fighting each other over pieces of the ever shrinking pie....

If Asia does drag pool into the mainstream by the time we wake up and smell the coffee here in the good ole US of A the WPA will own the sport and will have done it while we slept.....
 
The Renfro said:
They are self appointed but are supported in their efforts by their political ties to the BCA and various other organizations... Basically I think they grease the wheels and since no one else is doing so... They win...

My opinion is no secret and I have stated it on other threads... The WPA is trying to own pool on the cheap.... Sadly in the US the people and organizations that should be banding together to fight the WPA to provide direction are too busy fighting each other over pieces of the ever shrinking pie....

If Asia does drag pool into the mainstream by the time we wake up and smell the coffee here in the good ole US of A the WPA will own the sport and will have done it while we slept.....
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WOW - you are REALLY misinformed.

The WPA is not just a group of scalywags that decided one day to go control pool.

You need to do smore homework before saying something that is so far off base.

I do not know all of the details. But it probably would help if you went to wikipedia or other sources.

Wikipedia:
The World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) is the international governing body for pocket billiards (and also sactions rules and events for carom billiards games as well, in cooperation with other bodies). The group was formed in 1987, and was initially headed by a provisional board of directors consisting of representatives from Japan, the United States, Sweden, and Germany. The current WPA president is Ian Anderson of Australia.

WPA is also one of the member organizations of the World Confederation of Billiard Sports (WCBS), the international umbrella organization encompassing the major cue sports.

Here is link for the organizational chart: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=5&pagetype=member

Perhaps this will help straighten out some of the confusion you just created.

Mark Griffin
 
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Actually don't need the history lesson but just so everyone follows... The WPA formed prior to the organized efforts to get pool into the Olympics...

The various bodies agreed to support the WPA in the Olympic efforts for pool and all 3 disciplines agreed to be under the WBCS commission's umbrella....

I fully support the WPA in it's drive to get the IOC to allow the sport into the Olympic games but they seem to have done little in that respect in over 20years of attempts...

The WPA has turned from this Olympic objective to other activities... I am not sure that many of these activities are not self determination at work....With no organizations set to oppose them...

The BCA used to be the issuer of World Champion titles in straight pool.... I don't think they even blinked when the WPA began crowning world champions because the WPA wasn't crowning trade organization champions.....

So I guess the answer depends on WHAT they are doing as to who accredits and empowers them....

I fully admit my opinions are very biased....

I know CSI has been awarded use of the title World Straight Pool champion by the WPA... I also seem to recall CSI being contracted for forums and brackets at at least 1 event....

I would in no way expect CSI to do anything but to support the WPA in the current void...

I would actually prefer CSI to step into the role the BCA used to fulfill... Rank players, Organize events, Crown World Champions... and thumb your nose at the WPA over anything that is not related to the IOC and Olympic participation for pool.....
 
dr9ball said:
... My question is who accredited/sanctioned the World Pool Association? What body gives the WPA its authority (in the USA and other countries)? ...
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The IOC (International Olympic Committee) is the basic source of recognition of the WPA. The IOC recognizes the WCBS as the world governing body for all cue sports, and the WCBS in turn has three members for the major disciplines:

WPA -- pool
UMB -- carom billiards
IBSF/WPBSA -- snooker and English billiards

Those three organizations are the only world-wide organizations supporting those disciplines.

The BCA is both the North American and the US representative to the WPA.

The pro players have no direct input to this hierarchy except when they serve on the boards or committees of Federations and Confederations.
 
Actually the WPA was formed as a umbrella group to all the continental organizations which are themselves comprised of country organizations which are comprised of all the state orgainzations which are further comprised of all the local clubs and leagues.

So the answer is US. We empower the WPA. The professional players as a group do not have an official voice in the WPA. They are not members of the WPA in any capacity.

They SHOULD have one. The WPA SHOULD have a category of membership that is "Internation Professional Players". These players would give up the right to compete for their country as a member of their country's ogranizations but they would be seeded into tournaments based on their WPA ranking. As a group they would have same voice as a continental member when it comes to voting on issues.

I have proposed this to many administrative members of the WPA but it has not been seriously considered as far as I know.

No one is forcing any player to play in WPA sanctioned events. The WPA is simply an umbrella organization that imposes rules and sanctioning as part of it's charter. Anyone or group is free to set up a competing organization as has been done in many other sports.

If I am not mistaken there is or was two separate groups claiming to govern Snooker worldwide as well as two separate groups claiming to govern Billiards worldwide. I am not entirely sure how this has worked out and what the current state is in those two disciplines.

But when I lived in Germany the path was clear.

Our club elected a rep to go to state level organization's meetings. Each state level elected a rep to go to the national meetings, the DBU- Deutsch Billard Union, the DBU elected a rep to go to the European Pocket Billiards Federation's meetings. The EPBF elected a rep to be on the WPA board.

The WPA is modeled exactly along the same lines as the world governing body for soccer.

That's how it SHOULD be in the USA but pool has evolved much differently in the USA. In the USA there are many competing privately owned-business and one coroporate-minded trade organization that are vying for control of pool. The BCA was chosen to be the continental member of the WPA and that's how it's been. The BCA also helped to fund the WPA in the early days.

So if you ever played in any BCA events (before the league was privatized) then you are part of what accredits the WPA.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The IOC (International Olympic Committee) is the basic source of recognition of the WPA. The IOC recognizes the WCBS as the world governing body for all cue sports, and the WCBS in turn has three members for the major disciplines:

WPA -- pool
UMB -- carom billiards
IBSF/WPBSA -- snooker and English billiards

Those three organizations are the only world-wide organizations supporting those disciplines.

The BCA is both the North American and the US representative to the WPA.

The pro players have no direct input to this hierarchy except when they serve on the boards or committees of Federations and Confederations.
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Thank you. I did not think to look at it this way. So by virtue of the IOC/WCBS recognition is it fair to say that IF pool were an Olympic discipline then there would be no way for any athlete to compete in the Olympics outside the WPA's sanction?
 
Bob Jewett said:
The IOC (International Olympic Committee) is the basic source of recognition of the WPA. The IOC recognizes the WCBS as the world governing body for all cue sports, and the WCBS in turn has three members for the major disciplines:

WPA -- pool
UMB -- carom billiards
IBSF/WPBSA -- snooker and English billiards

Those three organizations are the only world-wide organizations supporting those disciplines.

The BCA is both the North American and the US representative to the WPA.

The pro players have no direct input to this hierarchy except when they serve on the boards or committees of Federations and Confederations.
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Thanks for your post Bob, this is very informative.
 
JB Cases said:
Thank you. I did not think to look at it this way. So by virtue of the IOC/WCBS recognition is it fair to say that IF pool were an Olympic discipline then there would be no way for any athlete to compete in the Olympics outside the WPA's sanction?
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Yes, only the recognized organization for a sport can nominate players for competition in the Games. I think the reasons for this are obvious.

The WCBS (and its constituent organizations) already send players to the World Games. The World Games is like the Summer Olympic Games but includes sports which are not presently in the Olympic Games, such as water skiing and sport climbing. See http://www.theworldgames.org/ and especially http://theworldgames.org/the-sports/sports/precision-sports/billiard-sports
 
The WPA is not a perfect model but it beats any other organisation currently operating as an independent body.

It is supported by
The BCA in the USA
Europe support them via the EPBF (European Pocket Billiards Federation)
The APBU are in there to represent Asia plus there are smaller bodies that represent Central/South America, Africa and Oceania.

So that enfranchises a lot of players and they do now have an extensive annual portfolio of events. There are no permanent employees and the board members are only paid nominal sums plus modest expenses.

I think that BCAPL would be a more worthy representative of the game in the States but forget the UPA or the ABP who are both self seeking bodies.
 
pro9dg said:
The WPA is not a perfect model but it beats any other organisation currently operating as an independent body.

It is supported by
The BCA in the USA...
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Doug, your heart is always in the right place, and I know, as do others, how hard you work trying to create pool opportunities on the professional tournament trail. You truly are one of pool's unsung heroes.

That said, if the BCA supports the WPA, why don't they make a stronger effort in supporting professional pool? I'm still stumped at sending Mika to China on a BCA ticket, even if the powers-that-be claim that no North American player wanted to go.

This speaks volumes to me. The BCA needs to help North American pros represent our interest at global events, not help a pro from another country. If Mika can't represent Finland and compete at international events because he is not active in the European organization, he should then represent the United States when he's abroad. This to me is like having your cake and eating it too.
 
From what I hear, the WPA has 1-2 people that actually work in it. One of the two being Ian Anderson the president. He doesnt even have a secretary or assistant. Its really skeleton crew, if that. They survive off the money they get from sanctioning and thats why Matchroom gets to have "World Championship" status in all their events. That 5% helps those 1-2 guys survive.
 
The Renfro said:
I fully admit my opinions are very biased....

I know CSI has been awarded use of the title World Straight Pool champion by the WPA... I also seem to recall CSI being contracted for forums and brackets at at least 1 event....

Where does this info come from - your source is absolutely WRONG! We also have not used our bracket system with any WPA event - yet! BTW, we don't call our events 'world' because they aren't.

I would in no way expect CSI to do anything but to support the WPA in the current void...

We do support the WPA because they are the best organizatin out there. They have problems but they are way ahead of anyone else.

I would actually prefer CSI to step into the role the BCA used to fulfill... Rank players, Organize events, Crown World Champions... and thumb your nose at the WPA over anything that is not related to the IOC and Olympic participation for pool.....
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I would also love us to be in a more powerful position with the WPA, but right now the BCA is the North American representative.


Renfro:

CSI has not been awarded the use of any World title. We have not asked for one. All of our events ar properly titled.

You are mistaken. I think you have some passion for pool - but please don't get married to the concept of pool being in the Olympics. I don't believe it can even be brought up again until around 2020.

Mark Griffin
 
Mark Griffin said:
I would also love us to be in a more powerful position with the WPA, but right now the BCA is the North American representative.


Renfro:

CSI has not been awarded the use of any World title. We have not asked for one. All of our events ar properly titled.

You are mistaken. I think you have some passion for pool - but please don't get married to the concept of pool being in the Olympics. I don't believe it can even be brought up again until around 2020.

Mark Griffin
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Mark,

What you are doing for pool is fantastic and you sir should be in HOF for your contributions to the billiards industry. I admire you for coming on this site and sparring with the restless. That takes courage and passion for what you do.


Lou
 
Mark Griffin said:
I would also love us to be in a more powerful position with the WPA, but right now the BCA is the North American representative.


Renfro:

CSI has not been awarded the use of any World title. We have not asked for one. All of our events ar properly titled.

You are mistaken. I think you have some passion for pool - but please don't get married to the concept of pool being in the Olympics. I don't believe it can even be brought up again until around 2020.

Mark Griffin
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Mark, I apologize for spreading false information on CSI being awarded the use of the title... I think it was a late night when I had read another post awhile back.... so congratulations on being awarded use of the U.S. Open Straight Pool Championship title.... And as far as the information regarding CSI being involved with the WPA that once again was my error.... Although CSI was heavily involved with the 2010 8 ball World Championships.... http://www.cuesportsindia.com/global/2010/wpa/WC8ball.htm... Cue Sports India was the entity.......... I assumed when I had heard CSI was involved with the event that it was your people... Wrong CSI......

As far as getting mired into the Olympic possibilities this is where I base my argument against the WPA... They were supported and advanced based on a concentrated effort to meet IOC approval... I am not so sure that the bodies under their jurisdiction would have acquiesced had the outcome of the Olympic consideration been known..

The WPA constitution is dated 2007 and was just amended in 2011
http://www.wpa-pool.com/pdf/web/wpa_constitution.pdf

I would just like to see the original Constitution from the 90s that was accepted by the member organizations. I think they have evolved in both their scope and desires and as far as I can see they have zero interest in
doing anything to advance the sport in the Western part of the world...

With that said... I would prefer the BCA remove all support and cowboy up... We all know that this is never going to happen. It has been under their watch that the trade members in that organization have followed suit with the BCA itself and orphaned professional Men's pool.....
 
PoolGrapevine said:
From what I hear, the WPA has 1-2 people that actually work in it. One of the two being Ian Anderson the president. He doesnt even have a secretary or assistant. Its really skeleton crew, if that. They survive off the money they get from sanctioning and thats why Matchroom gets to have "World Championship" status in all their events. That 5% helps those 1-2 guys survive.
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This is exactly right. The WPA is now and always has been underfunded and understaffed.

However that doesn't mean that they coulnd't have a slightly better environment if they were willing to recruit some of pool's more knowledgeable and competent people as advisers. (not me - NOT SPEAKING OF MYSELF)

I think it should be possible to bring some WPA events to America but the lack of communication and transparency makes it harder and harder for interested parties to come together.

The BCA is unfortunately on the ropes financially and it's not wise to look to them for any sort of leadership in reviving American pool as a pastime or a pro sport.
 
the renfro said:
mark, i apologize for spreading false information on csi being awarded the use of the title... I think it was a late night when i had read another post awhile back.... So congratulations on being awarded use of the u.s. Open straight pool championship title.... And as far as the information regarding csi being involved with the wpa that once again was my error.... Although csi was heavily involved with the 2010 8 ball world championships.... http://www.cuesportsindia.com/global/2010/wpa/wc8ball.htm... Cue sports india was the entity.......... I assumed when i had heard csi was involved with the event that it was your people... Wrong csi......
sorry my friend but you are wrong again. Csi , the indian version were not involved in any way with the world 8 ball championship. Your link shows only the results which (along with many other websites0 they happen to publish.
The tournament has only ever been played in the uae where i hold the qualifiers and the main event is run by ahmed ibrahim.
We have done this since the start of the tournament and will be doing it again for the 10th time in february 2012



as far as getting mired into the olympic possibilities this is where i base my argument against the wpa... They were supported and advanced based on a concentrated effort to meet ioc approval... I am not so sure that the bodies under their jurisdiction would have acquiesced had the outcome of the olympic consideration been known..

The wpa constitution is dated 2007 and was just amended in 2011
http://www.wpa-pool.com/pdf/web/wpa_constitution.pdf

i would just like to see the original constitution from the 90s that was accepted by the member organizations. I think they have evolved in both their scope and desires and as far as i can see they have zero interest in
doing anything to advance the sport in the western part of the world...
Jorgen Sandman was the person responsible for this Olympic project. What you seem to be implying is that he should not have gone ahead with it unless he was guaranteed to be 100% succesful in his quest. He certainly was backed by the Board Members at the time. As it turned out hedid not achieve his goal and I don't think that it will ever happen now.
Because of their financial limitations the WPA cannot canvass fully for tournaments. The way that it works is that people approach the WPA with a proposal for an event and it is followed up. That is how the World 8, 9 and 10 Ball got started.

As far as I am aware (apart from the US Open one year), Mark Griffin in conjunction with Matchroom and Dragon/Charlie are the only persons to have held WPA sanctioned tournaments in the USA..

With that said... I would prefer the bca remove all support and cowboy up... We all know that this is never going to happen. It has been under their watch that the trade members in that organization have followed suit with the bca itself and orphaned professional men's pool.....
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message in the quote
 
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Bob Jewett said:
The IOC (International Olympic Committee) is the basic source of recognition of the WPA. The IOC recognizes the WCBS as the world governing body for all cue sports, and the WCBS in turn has three members for the major disciplines:

WPA -- pool
UMB -- carom billiards
IBSF/WPBSA -- snooker and English billiards

Those three organizations are the only world-wide organizations supporting those disciplines.

The BCA is both the North American and the US representative to the WPA.

The pro players have no direct input to this hierarchy except when they serve on the boards or committees of Federations and Confederations.
Click to expand...

The question then becomes what did the WPA do to get the IOC to recognize them. The IOC has had well documented ethical problems.
 
I'm here. No need to speculate. Feel free to ask me questions. I served on the board of the WPA for nearly 4 years. Maybe Jerry Forsyth will chime in as well. He's still on the board. Maybe we can contact Ivan Lee, president of Simonis and get your speculations resolved as well. I believe he is also on the board at this time.

I'm curious, though..... who's the 2nd person referred to who does any work in the WPA? I think the poster wrote that Ian Anderson is one.
 
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alstl said:
The question then becomes what did the WPA do to get the IOC to recognize them. The IOC has had well documented ethical problems.
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The IOC did not recognize the WPA, it recognized the WCBS of which the WPA is a member. As pointed out before, those organizations have no significant funding. If you really want to understand the international situation, I urge you to read up about the organizations involved.
 
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