Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

[K.Mcphee]

Although your other statement were pretty accurate, I must disagree here. KT has deep pockets and that is why nobody else can just pick it up and run with it. KT's business model failed (so he says) because of the new internet gambling laws put in place by the Bush administration. His primary revenue stream was based on internet gambling.

I know what happened with the whole poker thing. The IPT was sponsered by partypoker or something like that. The year the IPT aired, poker got regulated and it hurt online poker businesses big time. I don't know how much Kevin T. invested or that he even lost from the deal. What really matters is that something on that scale could've worked...I still think it was extremely entertaining. Fix a few things here and there and we're in business.

Get rid of the nap clothe. Mix the games up, and everyone would want to play.

 

[Island Drive]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I haven't ever watched any snooker, let alone know it's rules. (I know, there is a ton of it on the web. I will get to it at some point, when I have some extra time.) So I don't know how or why that works for them.

My only point was in most every organized form of 8-ball, you need to call the pocket. (Other than APA, which I'm off to play in a few minutes, heh hehh.) I simply wanted clarification on how Celtic would handle that part of the game of 8-ball, under his scenario of just using solidly colored balls. And again, it would likely only come up when shooting at two balls that were close to one another.

Not trying to tear his idea down. Sincerely curious.

I too know Nothing about snooker rules, but your concern about the wrong ball going in is a very good point. Having played 14.1 over the yrs, many times I've seen a ball being used to break the cluser up missed....yet another ball goes into the same called pocket.

 

[Cashman]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I haven't ever watched any snooker, let alone know it's rules. (I know, there is a ton of it on the web. I will get to it at some point, when I have some extra time.) So I don't know how or why that works for them.

My only point was in most every organized form of 8-ball, you need to call the pocket. (Other than APA, which I'm off to play in a few minutes, heh hehh.) I simply wanted clarification on how Celtic would handle that part of the game of 8-ball, under his scenario of just using solidly colored balls. And again, it would likely only come up when shooting at two balls that were close to one another.

Not trying to tear his idea down. Sincerely curious.

In snooker you don't have to call anything. When shooting colors you have to declare which color your shooting, but flukes count.

 

[justadub]

In snooker you don't have to call anything. When shooting colors you have to declare which color your shooting, but flukes count.

Slop??????? Heavens, what will the masses here think? :yikes:

Just kidding. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Pool lacks an organization that can elevate its awareness to the mainstream. BUT, the IPT was brilliantly put together, properly funded, and was ready to go. Even though it went down in flames, anyone could've picked it up and run with it. ANYONE.

I know what happened with the whole poker thing. The IPT was sponsered by partypoker or something like that. The year the IPT aired, poker got regulated and it hurt online poker businesses big time. I don't know how much Kevin T. invested or that he even lost from the deal. What really matters is that something on that scale could've worked...I still think it was extremely entertaining. Fix a few things here and there and we're in business.

I know I am not supposed to respond to this but:

I have to ask if you have any idea what occured with the IPT. KT LOST around 12 million. I am sure it was a little bit more than: 'fix a few things here and there'.

But I did have a good laugh.

If you need any info on IPT and how bad a loser it was, please do a search.

I am thinking you mean well but your two posts on this topic are humorous- whether intentional or not.

If you need more info (after searching), I might be able to explain more to you.

Mark Griffin

 

[sjm]

I know I am not supposed to respond to this but:

I have to ask if you have any idea what occured with the IPT. KT LOST around 12 million. I am sure it was a little bit more than: 'fix a few things here and there'.

But I did have a good laugh.

If you need any info on IPT and how bad a loser it was, please do a search.

I am thinking you mean well but your two posts on this topic are humorous- whether intentional or not.

If you need more info (after searching), I might be able to explain more to you.

Mark Griffin

Agreed. The IPT was a disaster. In my view, IPT picked the right game but didn't get much else right.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Schofield
The fact is, the better a player gets, the more he hates Eight-Ball.

Posted by Celtic
That is not a fact at all...


You are right. It is not cut and dry and I should have worded it another way. The better the player, the greater the chance that he will NOT prefer Eight-Ball. For the most part, this is true. I recognize that there are exceptions to every rule.

In all sincerity; Good luck to Mark.

 

[jason]

I know what happened with the whole poker thing. The IPT was sponsered by partypoker or something like that. The year the IPT aired, poker got regulated and it hurt online poker businesses big time. I don't know how much Kevin T. invested or that he even lost from the deal. What really matters is that something on that scale could've worked...I still think it was extremely entertaining. Fix a few things here and there and we're in business.

Get rid of the nap clothe. Mix the games up, and everyone would want to play.

I don't know if KT had any money at all invested in poker sites. I believe KTs business model in the long run counted on being a bookie for the IPT through the internet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. That said KT put on the most professional looking tournaments pool has probably ever seen. Unfortunately, like a lot of KTs businesses, it was built on a foundation made out of mud. Non the less, some pool players got a very lucky "score" from KT. One thing you can say about KT, he did pony up a lot of money and I believe everyone got paid finally. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[justnum]

Agreed. The IPT was a disaster. In my view, IPT picked the right game but didn't get much else right.

The IPT got advertising right. The first few months in everyone was caught up in the hype, if you didn't have it you were a heretic.

They knew how to attract all the top talent. They knew how to get airplay on VS. And they were the first to sell internet subscriptions to a billiard match archive (I don't want to argue ACCUstats sells DVDs, and the IPT just reinvented the wheel on the internet, though its a good point for academic debate).

The IPT pushed the limits on applying technology in the billiards industry. Many of their practices are in use today. The concept that everyone in the tournament is awarded a prize is somewhat innovative. Financially that idea doesn't translate well, but alternative prizes could be thought up. I see some of the ideas in the IPT like slow cloth and different table conditions being applied in TAR. The commentary concept started with the IPT and is in use by TAR. In many ways TAR is the bastard child of IPT.

The IPT is the granddaddy of contemporary billiards in the US. It all started with a man named Kevin, a dream and a friend named Mike.

 

[JB Cases]

Although your other statement were pretty accurate, I must disagree here. KT has deep pockets and that is why nobody else can just pick it up and run with it. KT's business model failed (so he says) because of the new internet gambling laws put in place by the Bush administration. His primary revenue stream was based on internet gambling.

KT just used that as an excuse. Only Kevin and Deno Andrews know the truth.

KT probably thought he was going to be able to work out a deal like the World Poker Tour did with the Travel Channel and then sell advertising against the programming. Then he thought he would be able to flip it to someone bigger while staying on board in a paid position with stock.

Still as Mark rightly points out he did pump a lot of money into the game. At the end he did air barrel a lot of people but what did get paid out was quite a lot. I am sure that this money helped a lot of pro players at the time.

It's unfortunate because had he spent a quarter of the money and built it slower then he could have had the exact same amount of interest from the world's best players.

The idea of a 150 person (meaning men and women) pro tour where 100 tour cards are retained by the top 100 and 50 are earned through qualifier is a great one and exactly the sort of thing the pro game needs. Having a SOLID and world wide professional group to aspire to would allow for a series of feeder systems to spring up which could also be solid and consistent.

Currently in China there is a new tour which will have a certain group of pros who have their tour card and the rest will have to qualify. Similar in part to the WPBA's structure. In order to retain the tour card the players who have one will have to maintain a certain rank and if they drop below that level then they will be forced to qualify for each event again.

This makes it very competitive and almost mandatory to show up to each event. At least until such time as you have enough points to ride out the season and retain the tour card.

 

[sjm]

The IPT is the granddaddy of contemporary billiards in the US.

I don't agree, but it's a debate for another day. Actually, one thing I really liked about the IPT's approach was the idea of having a fixed number of professionals (200) and a plan to drop the bottom fifty every year from the pro ranks, giving aspirants a shot to get in. If they had lasted. after a few years, they'd have weeded out all but the most worthy from their tour, and the result could have been a tour consisting of nearly all the superstars of international pool.

 

[justnum]

I don't agree, but it's a debate for another day. Actually, one thing I really liked about the IPT's approach was the idea of having a fixed number of professionals (200) and a plan to drop the bottom fifty every year from the pro ranks, giving aspirants a shot to get in. If they had lasted. after a few years, they'd have weeded out all but the most worthy from their tour, and the result could have been a tour consisting of nearly all the superstars of international pool.

That is a pretty popular tactic used in most phone sales offices. People that don't meet the quota get kicked out. KT applying to a pool tournament format, was a clever use of intelligence.

KT had a lot of knowledge from outside the billiards industry that when applied in the billiards industry was groundbreaking.

 

[JB Cases]

The IPT got advertising right. The first few months in everyone was caught up in the hype, if you didn't have it you were a heretic.

They knew how to attract all the top talent. They knew how to get airplay on VS. And they were the first to sell internet subscriptions to a billiard match archive (I don't want to argue ACCUstats sells DVDs, and the IPT just reinvented the wheel on the internet, though its a good point for academic debate).

The IPT pushed the limits on applying technology in the billiards industry. Many of their practices are in use today. The concept that everyone in the tournament is awarded a prize is somewhat innovative. Financially that idea doesn't translate well, but alternative prizes could be thought up. I see some of the ideas in the IPT like slow cloth and different table conditions being applied in TAR. The commentary concept started with the IPT and is in use by TAR. In many ways TAR is the bastard child of IPT.

The IPT is the granddaddy of contemporary billiards in the US. It all started with a man named Kevin, a dream and a friend named Mike.

This is how little interest the IPT or any billiards programming has. When one of the IPT events was being broadcast I was at a tournament in a little bar in Charlotte. I asked that the channel be changed to the IPT event. I guess this one was $100,000 or $200,000 first place.

The POOL PLAYERS in the bar requested that the tv's be changed to some game, baseball or something else that was going on.

Yes, the pool world and AZB was caught up in the IPT but the world at large didn't really care. KT COULD have handled it way better but he dogged it.

I was at the Mike Sigel/Loree Jon match. It was wonderfully produced with some real stars in attendance. I really thought that this was the future of pool. I am sure I wrote those exact words on here back then.

TAR has really not taken anything from the IPT at all. The two person commentary format is as old as tv sports. Big "Challenge" matches date at least back to Efren/Sigel for $100,000 and actually the Mosconi/Fats matches were the grandaddy of those.

The only thing that the IPT did is prove that if there is an incentive then pool players will get busy trying to get on tour and stay there. Who would have ever believed that anyone would ever pay 2k to enter a qualifier? The IPT "promise" made that happen.

So really anyone COULD duplicate the IPT format if they REALLY and TRULY were able to put up and guarantee x-amount of money for the tour and x# of seasons.

That's the rub. KT SAID he was in it for the long run.

He lied and then didn't even go out honorably. He should have paid off everyone that he owed and closed the doors.

 

[justnum]

This is how little interest the IPT or any billiards programming has. When one of the IPT events was being broadcast I was at a tournament in a little bar in Charlotte. I asked that the channel be changed to the IPT event. I guess this one was $100,000 or $200,000 first place.

The POOL PLAYERS in the bar requested that the tv's be changed to some game, baseball or something else that was going on.

Yes, the pool world and AZB was caught up in the IPT but the world at large didn't really care. KT COULD have handled it way better but he dogged it.

I was at the Mike Sigel/Loree Jon match. It was wonderfully produced with some real stars in attendance. I really thought that this was the future of pool. I am sure I wrote those exact words on here back then.

TAR has really not taken anything from the IPT at all. The two person commentary format is as old as tv sports. Big "Challenge" matches date at least back to Efren/Sigel for $100,000 and actually the Mosconi/Fats matches were the grandaddy of those.

The only thing that the IPT did is prove that if there is an incentive then pool players will get busy trying to get on tour and stay there. Who would have ever believed that anyone would ever pay 2k to enter a qualifier? The IPT "promise" made that happen.

So really anyone COULD duplicate the IPT format if they REALLY and TRULY were able to put up and guarantee x-amount of money for the tour and x# of seasons.

That's the rub. KT SAID he was in it for the long run.

He lied and then didn't even go out honorably. He should have paid off everyone that he owed and closed the doors.

Your so smart. You should run a billiard event or something. Maybe chronicle the adventures of billiards business in current times.

You really know a lot it is a shame to limit yourself to posting. Publish a book so that you can enlighten people that don't have access to AZ.

Maybe talk to some people that need help running events. Perhaps offer your services as an intern or volunteer. Or work for free table time. Do something, you really are wasting your time if you aren't involved at a billiards institution.

 

[Celtic]

Agreed. The IPT was a disaster. In my view, IPT picked the right game but didn't get much else right.

The round robin format they used was a convoluted mess, I remember the threads where we were all trying to break the code and figure out who was progressing to the next round.

 

[JB Cases]

Your so smart. You should run a billiard event or something. Maybe chronicle the adventures of billiards business in current times.

You really know a lot it is a shame to limit yourself to posting. Publish a book so that you can enlighten people that don't have access to AZ.

Maybe talk to some people that need help running events. Perhaps offer your services as an intern or volunteer. Or work for free table time. Do something, you really are wasting your time if you aren't involved at a billiards institution.

Thanks, I know how smart I am. But the funny thing is your assumption that I am not involved in anything with pool on the ground. I will let you live with that ass-umption.

I will say this, my name is John Barton, I founded Instroke Cue Cases and now run JB Cases. I have more than 20 years in this industry.

Who are you? What have you done?

 

[JB Cases]

That is a pretty popular tactic used in most phone sales offices. People that don't meet the quota get kicked out. KT applying to a pool tournament format, was a clever use of intelligence.

KT had a lot of knowledge from outside the billiards industry that when applied in the billiards industry was groundbreaking.

Actually the format was borrowed from golf if I remember correctly. What sort of knowledge from outside the industry did Kevin Trudeau bring to the table?

I am curiously because other than making the events more extravagant than we had seen I really didn't see much that was groundbreaking from outside the pool industry. The only outside industry thing I think he brought in was the relentless hype and hyperbole brought over from his infomercial style.

He borrowed the production style from Matchroom. Barry Hearn brought his production values in from Snooker and Boxing.

KT was able to bring some stars to the events which certainly helped a little bit by bringing out the media/paparazzi who follow those people around.

At the end of the day though he could not get the IPT onto any major network and had to purchase informercial time to broadcast the matches.

Conversely pool has at times been live on ABC's Wide World of Sports and ESPN. Also Billiard Club Network was able to get pool broadcast on second and third tier channels before the IPT came along.

The IPT made a big splash. They caused a lot of ripples. But like everything else that effect fades without continued effort. Many of us had a lot of hope that they would rock it. And they did for a few events.

To call them the impetus for pool as it exists today or the genesis of TAR is completely ludicrous though. That can only come from someone who does not have much of a grasp on pool history or someone closely aligned with KT and the IPT. Which is it?

 

[JCIN]

The IPT got advertising right. The first few months in everyone was caught up in the hype, if you didn't have it you were a heretic.

They knew how to attract all the top talent. They knew how to get airplay on VS. And they were the first to sell internet subscriptions to a billiard match archive (I don't want to argue ACCUstats sells DVDs, and the IPT just reinvented the wheel on the internet, though its a good point for academic debate).

The IPT pushed the limits on applying technology in the billiards industry. Many of their practices are in use today. The concept that everyone in the tournament is awarded a prize is somewhat innovative. Financially that idea doesn't translate well, but alternative prizes could be thought up. I see some of the ideas in the IPT like slow cloth and different table conditions being applied in TAR. The commentary concept started with the IPT and is in use by TAR. In many ways TAR is the bastard child of IPT.

The IPT is the granddaddy of contemporary billiards in the US. It all started with a man named Kevin, a dream and a friend named Mike.

You really are dumb as a box of shit.

 

[JB Cases]

The round robin format they used was a convoluted mess, I remember the threads where we were all trying to break the code and figure out who was progressing to the next round.

They did that on purpose to avoid collusion. Deno wanted to make all the games count so that people couldn't collude to prevent others from getting through.

This is the bane of round robin formats where some people dump to others to pad the scores.

 

[JAM]

They did that on purpose to avoid collusion. Deno wanted to make all the games count so that people couldn't collude to prevent others from getting through.

This is the bane of round robin formats where some people dump to others to pad the scores.

Man, ain't that the truth. :embarrassed2: