Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

[K.Mcphee]

I know I am not supposed to respond to this but:

I have to ask if you have any idea what occured with the IPT. KT LOST around 12 million. I am sure it was a little bit more than: 'fix a few things here and there'.

But I did have a good laugh.

If you need any info on IPT and how bad a loser it was, please do a search.

I am thinking you mean well but your two posts on this topic are humorous- whether intentional or not.

If you need more info (after searching), I might be able to explain more to you.

Mark Griffin

I'm not interested in finding out what happened to the IPT, who funded it, or whether KT lost the amount you stated. What I know will do very little to help it, or pool. Further, it has absolutely zero relevance to my point, which is that the IPT is the most entertaining thing that has ever been involved with pool. I know because I breathe pool. I have spent my last meal on table time, many times.

I waited months and days for the IPT to air. I sat and watched all the players dressed up nicely playing in front of a very professional audience, some of which were in the entertainment industry.

I'm sure you are more aware of the business end of it all but as a pool and poker player during pokers boom, I know how big pool could've gotten if the IPT were to remain on TV for a few seasons. Poker was making what the entire IPT players made in 3 seasons in one day.

 

[JAM]

I don't agree, but it's a debate for another day. Actually, one thing I really liked about the IPT's approach was the idea of having a fixed number of professionals (200) and a plan to drop the bottom fifty every year from the pro ranks, giving aspirants a shot to get in. If they had lasted. after a few years, they'd have weeded out all but the most worthy from their tour, and the result could have been a tour consisting of nearly all the superstars of international pool.

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. The IPT could have, should have, would have, as they say, been the change agent for pool, but its biggest flaw was that its tour was too grandiose from the start.

With all those millions of dollars and glitz, the whipped cream of the IPT on the hot dog pool players just didn't taste good to mainstream America.

 

[JAM]

I'm not interested in finding out what happened to the IPT, who funded it, or whether KT lost the amount you stated. What I know will do very little to help it, or pool. Further, it has absolutely zero relevance to my point, which is that the IPT is the most entertaining thing that has ever been involved with pool. I know because I breathe pool. I have spent my last meal on table time, many times.

I waited months and days for the IPT to air. I sat and watched all the players dressed up nicely playing in front of a very professional audience, some of which were in the entertainment industry.

I'm sure you are more aware of the business end of it all but as a pool and poker player during pokers boom, I know how big pool could've gotten if the IPT were to remain on TV for a few seasons. Poker was making what the entire IPT players made in 3 seasons in one day.

It's a shame there weren't about 800,000 more just like you, because if there were, the IPT would have not ended up a dead fish in the water.

Most people don't see pool like you and me do. They think it's boring, the way I think tennis is boring. In Philippines, pool is better than NFL in the States. We just happen to live in a country that doesn't think very highly of pool.

 

[K.Mcphee]

It's a shame there weren't about 800,000 more just like you, because if there were, the IPT would have not ended up a dead fish in the water.

Most people don't see pool like you and me do. They think it's boring, the way I think tennis is boring. In Philippines, pool is better than NFL in the States. We just happen to live in a country that doesn't think very highly of pool.

Yeah but I don't see how we need more than just the pool players. There are so many of us. Even when I was playing league, they all were eager to watch the show. We even went to the tryout stages where everyone from your town that weren't on the roster, had a chance to make the cut. It was all over the country. Danny Medina, Tang Hoa, Oscar, Frost...and a handfull real pool players came out just to try make the seasons. I can't imagine the entire world of pool weren't somewhat involved.

 

["CaliRed".]

I see some of the ideas in the IPT like slow cloth and different table conditions being applied in TAR. The commentary concept started with the IPT and is in use by TAR. In many ways TAR is the bastard child of IPT.

The IPT is the granddaddy of contemporary billiards in the US. It all started with a man named Kevin, a dream and a friend named Mike.

You got way too much time on your hands. You sit around and dream up all these wild and ridiculous thoughts and then spew it out on these forums, in your matter of fact way, like every person should already know these things.

It's amusing to me how people such as yourself and PP (the same?), always have all the answers to everything, but yet have ZERO experience in anything of which you talk about. One wonders how much of it is troll bait or whether you actually believe the junk you write.

Regardless, I have to admit, it is always good for a laugh, if nothing else.

 

[justnum]

Actually the format was borrowed from golf if I remember correctly. What sort of knowledge from outside the industry did Kevin Trudeau bring to the table?

I am curiously because other than making the events more extravagant than we had seen I really didn't see much that was groundbreaking from outside the pool industry. The only outside industry thing I think he brought in was the relentless hype and hyperbole brought over from his infomercial style.

He borrowed the production style from Matchroom. Barry Hearn brought his production values in from Snooker and Boxing.

KT was able to bring some stars to the events which certainly helped a little bit by bringing out the media/paparazzi who follow those people around.

At the end of the day though he could not get the IPT onto any major network and had to purchase informercial time to broadcast the matches.

Conversely pool has at times been live on ABC's Wide World of Sports and ESPN. Also Billiard Club Network was able to get pool broadcast on second and third tier channels before the IPT came along.

The IPT made a big splash. They caused a lot of ripples. But like everything else that effect fades without continued effort. Many of us had a lot of hope that they would rock it. And they did for a few events.

To call them the impetus for pool as it exists today or the genesis of TAR is completely ludicrous though. That can only come from someone who does not have much of a grasp on pool history or someone closely aligned with KT and the IPT. Which is it?

If you have trouble understanding what my POV is just say so. This is a forum, it is better to ask than to assume. There is no excuse for poor language.

But since this is a free forum, I will just encourage better posting language than to require it of you. Seeing as you are so occupied with writing mostly opinion instead of stating facts.

Stating the obvious points about what is happening in the pool industry in recent times is pretty easy to argue. But if your interested in a debate with me I suggest you reread what I wrote, and then make some comments. Instead of just pick out one or two lines you like to exaggerate the impact of and comment on.

 

[JB Cases]

If you have trouble understanding what my POV is just say so. This is a forum, it is better to ask than to assume. There is no excuse for poor language.

But since this is a free forum, I will just encourage better posting language than to require it of you. Seeing as you are so occupied with writing mostly opinion instead of stating facts.

Stating the obvious points about what is happening in the pool industry in recent times is pretty easy to argue. But if your interested in a debate with me I suggest you reread what I wrote, and then make some comments. Instead of just pick out one or two lines you like to exaggerate the impact of and comment on.

I am not interested in a debate with you unless you are willing to disclose your identity and affiliation with the IPT I can't treat anything you say as verifiable or factual without some other corroboration. So far much of what you have said has been opinion and also not rooted in fact.

Until then I will post my comments on your statements in whatever manner I choose to. The IPT turned out to not be the savior for pool that Kevin Trudeau promised it would be. Still it did put a lot of money into player's pockets during it's short tenure. Unfortunately a lot was taken out of player's pockets who were trying to get into the events and on the tour that dissipated. They are still owed money all these years later.

None of that has much bearing on the state of pool today with the EXCEPTION that Mark Griffin can't get a fair shake to lead the pros to a somewhat stable and lucrative future because they were burned by Trudeau's false promises.

Trudeau claimed that he was funding the IPT for three years. He lied.

With that lie he skipped out on paying a lot of people, vendors and qualifiers. None of the players are getting any residuals on the ongoing video rentals at the still existing IPT website. Maybe they are not entitled to any according to the contract the players had to sign.

To say that they pioneered video subscriptions to pool matches is nonsense though. Accu-Stats and Billiard Club Network were doing online PPV before the IPT came around. And besides that PPV access to video libraries was done in porn since the beginning of the internet. So it's not like they pioneered some new tech.

Many people feel that the IPT actually harmed pool as it diverted almost all the energy in pool towards it for the 18 months or so it was around. It surely sucked a lot of money OUT of other events as players and backers were spending money trying to be a part of the IPT.

It certainly hampered efforts of other promoters and the WPA with Trudeau essentially saying that they and all their events were small time and not worth attending.

Anyway, this is all history at this point. No need to really discuss it other than to refute your strange notion that the IPT has left some sort of ongoing legacy that benefits pool.

 

[justnum]

I am not interested in a debate with you unless you are willing to disclose your identity and affiliation with the IPT I can't treat anything you say as verifiable or factual without some other corroboration. So far much of what you have said has been opinion and also not rooted in fact.

Until then I will post my comments on your statements in whatever manner I choose to. The IPT turned out to not be the savior for pool that Kevin Trudeau promised it would be. Still it did put a lot of money into player's pockets during it's short tenure. Unfortunately a lot was taken out of player's pockets who were trying to get into the events and on the tour that dissipated. They are still owed money all these years later.

None of that has much bearing on the state of pool today with the EXCEPTION that Mark Griffin can't get a fair shake to lead the pros to a somewhat stable and lucrative future because they were burned by Trudeau's false promises.

Trudeau claimed that he was funding the IPT for three years. He lied.

With that lie he skipped out on paying a lot of people, vendors and qualifiers. None of the players are getting any residuals on the ongoing video rentals at the still existing IPT website. Maybe they are not entitled to any according to the contract the players had to sign.

To say that they pioneered video subscriptions to pool matches is nonsense though. Accu-Stats and Billiard Club Network were doing online PPV before the IPT came around. And besides that PPV access to video libraries was done in porn since the beginning of the internet. So it's not like they pioneered some new tech.

Many people feel that the IPT actually harmed pool as it diverted almost all the energy in pool towards it for the 18 months or so it was around. It surely sucked a lot of money OUT of other events as players and backers were spending money trying to be a part of the IPT.

It certainly hampered efforts of other promoters and the WPA with Trudeau essentially saying that they and all their events were small time and not worth attending.

Anyway, this is all history at this point. No need to really discuss it other than to refute your strange notion that the IPT has left some sort of ongoing legacy that benefits pool.

It is obvious your not interested in the pool players as a person, your just interested in using them.
Here is what I am doing now, its a discussion on the challenges in a semi/pro pool players life. Feel free to add to it. My main interest is in discussing what players should know, and what people should know about the lifestyle of a pool player. Instead of talking about what pro players should be doing I am talking about what pro players are struggling with. And often it is much more than what a tournament or event producer goes through. But if your not interested in that find a different thread.

The IPT was so pivotal because that is the moment someone with skill and talent was able to interest hardened pool players into something better. No one else can say they did what the IPT did in terms of payment and better tournament conditions.

The IPT renewed interest into the billiard community as seen by the current resurgence of small time investors.

By the book the IPT did everything right, but KT had a problem with good bookkeeping. The IPT had long term and short term goals. Kev had the right amount of charisma and attracted the players. He even showed the players what a better future could be.

It is up to the players to decide if they can recreate or build upon the experiences they had. Or find a new Kevin Trudeau to be their shepherd.

 

[BasementDweller]

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. The IPT could have, should have, would have, as they say, been the change agent for pool, but its biggest flaw was that its tour was too grandiose from the start.

With all those millions of dollars and glitz, the whipped cream of the IPT on the hot dog pool players just didn't taste good to mainstream America.

I'm always a bit surprised by the wishful thinking of a lot of people when it came to the IPT.

The story begins and ends with KT. The guy was a con and always will be. The IPT NEVER had a chance!

 

[DecentShot]

We will have a better understanding of where American pool is at AFTER the Mosconi Cup. Pool's marketing viability may always be a challenge in the U.S., but a win at the Cup can give us some breathing room.

 

[JB Cases]

It is obvious your not interested in the pool players as a person, your just interested in using them.
Here is what I am doing now, its a discussion on the challenges in a semi/pro pool players life. Feel free to add to it. My main interest is in discussing what players should know, and what people should know about the lifestyle of a pool player. Instead of talking about what pro players should be doing I am talking about what pro players are struggling with. And often it is much more than what a tournament or event producer goes through. But if your not interested in that find a different thread.

Um as one who has sponsored pro players, lent them money, loaned them my car, let them sleep in my house, loaned them money, given them lots of product without using their name to promote, carried their cases, ferried them around, acted like a complete fanboy and go-fer for them, and been a friend to many of them I think that you are waaay off-base telling me I am not interested in the people behind the cue. Are you a pro-player?

Pray tell then, as a professional player what could you as an individual be going through career-wise that compares at all to what a promoter goes through? The pool promoter is often going all-in on the event and trying to at least break even. He has to deal with a million small details which include dealing with a hundred player's wants and whims.

The IPT was so pivotal because that is the moment someone with skill and talent was able to interest hardened pool players into something better. No one else can say they did what the IPT did in terms of payment and better tournament conditions.

Um, waving a big hunk of cheese in front of hungry mice will always get their attention. Duh, of course the players were interested in what KT was selling, he made it sound awesome. The guy isn't stupid. He is world class in the sales game. The only thing is that he uses that world class talent to prey on people's hopes.

The IPT renewed interest into the billiard community as seen by the current resurgence of small time investors.

You're joking right?

By the book the IPT did everything right, but KT had a problem with good bookkeeping. The IPT had long term and short term goals. Kev had the right amount of charisma and attracted the players. He even showed the players what a better future could be.

Kev? Is there a point in this paragraph? Can it even be called a paragraph?

It is up to the players to decide if they can recreate or build upon the experiences they had. Or find a new Kevin Trudeau to be their shepherd.

Unless some of the players decide to do some HARD work they won't build or recreate anything close to the IPT. And for the record some VERY WEALTHY people are members of this forum. These people have been associated with pool all their lives and have zero interest in investing in anything where the return on investment hinges on pool players.

The American pool scene is still very much in Gunslinger mode where it's every man for himself or small gangs looking out for their own interests only. Very few pool professionals act professionally and when they group together it gets even MORE unprofessional.

As individuals most of them are very nice people who would do anything for a good friend. But most of them lack business sense. For all their sharpness reading people they are not able to translate it anything worthwhile off the the table. Most, not all certainly.

The type of work and effort required to build an organization that is self-sustaining is staggering. To fund it and do the legwork to find investors and advertisers and work with existing promoters and organizations is more work than American professional players are willing to do.

I would bet AGAINST the top 20 players in the USA being willing to put in just TEN solid hours per week working on such an organization. And many of these people are my friends who I dearly admire. I'd give up weight that out of that group we could not get 200 hours of solid productive focused work towards building a better future for themselves and all pros.

 

[JB Cases]

We will have a better understanding of where American pool is at AFTER the Mosconi Cup. Pool's marketing viability may always be a challenge in the U.S., but a win at the Cup can give us some breathing room.

You give it too much credit. Win or lose the MC only means something to the hard care here on AZB. It means less than nothing to the populace at large. It means almost nothing to the industry in the USA.

It means much more to Matchroom and their ability to sell it to SkySports and ESPN/Star in Asia.

The only reason they bring it to the USA every other year is so that every year the crowd can be partisan to one side or the other. Not enough Americans who care about pool to make a decent opposing audience in England.

In Vegas they can practically pluck people off the street and all the visitors need to see is flag waving and they are into supporting the USA loudly.

In fact the fact that Matchroom can't sell it to ESPN or any other channel in the States to carry it live and uncut stands as further proof how little the general American audience cares about pool in the USA. Kudos to Matchroom for making it into an event with pizazz and patriotic fervor. They do make good TV out of it and it's a darn (watching my language Mr. Wilson) shame that Barry Hearn can't get it on TV in the USA in a meaningful way.

 

[chefjeff]

Yes, and good pool players should also eat their peas. Peas are good for them. The fact is, the better a player gets, the more he hates Eight-Ball. Only the good player decides what he likes and what he will play. No one decides for him.

A man's opinion is worth what he is willing to bet on it. Mark bets his money, time, and effort on Ten-Ball. His opinion is very valuable. He is living his dream.

But what patrons will pay to watch a game they don't like?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Worminator]

I will speak to the issue of getting youth into pool from some first hand experience. My son is 14, I have had a pool table in my house since the day he was born. He has absolutely no interest in the game. I told him when he was younger that I would teach him everything I know about the game if he was interested in playing. I never pushed him into pool, or any other sport he has ever played. He and his buddies come over and play from time to time for the pure entertainment factor of the game, not because they are passionate about it.

On the other hand, my son has become an avid golfer. Again, I didn't push him, but gave him the same option of teaching everything I know about golf if he was interested. He is ate up with the game. He spends his own money he earns from a part time job he has on golf equipment. Why… because he sees a future in it. He played on the High School golf team this year and played in 16 matches against other schools on a variety of courses… he loved it! He strives to become good enough to get a college scholarship, even if it is a small college. He loves going to pro tournaments and seeing the big stars. The game has him hooked. I see the same thing from his friends who play football, baseball, hockey, etc.

Now, golf season is over and why is he not playing pool? Well… a big reason is video games. Modern Warfare 3 came out yesterday. I took my son up to GameStop on Monday evening to pre-purchase it and there were kids camping out at the friggin store!!! We went to pick it up yesterday and the line was out the door.

So my point is… how is pool ever going to overcome these obstacles with the younger generation?

 

[ScottR]

You really are dumb as a box of shit.

Don't hold back, Justin.

Scott

 

[Mark Griffin]

Mark griffin tar review

But what patrons will pay to watch a game they don't like?

Jeff Livingston

I appreciate the good wishes of Paul schofield but let's not make too much of my 10-ball event.

The main reason we are playing 10-ball is because we wanted a Bca points event. We only have a 4-5 day window and thought it would a good thing for the players and spectators.

10-ball is not my dream, it is just a way to have a legitimate event that should gain some credibility over time. Many feel 9-ball is 'broken' when played at the highest level. 10-ball somewhat fixes that.

Bottom line is that we (at CSI) love pool. I really appreciate all the comments because it might help us improve.

Mark griffin

 

[BasementDweller]

So my point is… how is pool ever going to overcome these obstacles with the younger generation?

I think everyone has to admit that there is a much smaller pool of kids to target due to all the other things that are competing for their attention. But I have to think we have reached a saturation point with all the ipods, video games, internet, and bla bla bla.

Both my 7 year old son and my 5 year old daughter are very interested in pool. I really believe that most children that haven't reached the teen years yet, would rather spend their time with their parents doing something worthwhile than doing something by themselves. And if that's not the case, it's our jobs to try to make it so. I'm not just talking about pool here either.

I took my son to a small local tournament over the summer and he has been talking about playing in a pool tournament ever since. I know my kids would have a blast if we had some sort of father/son or father/daughter pool league we could compete in. I think the game of pool is still mesmerizing to children. My 18 month old instinctively loves to watch the balls roll around the table. If we could just introduce them to it at a young age and ensure there is a safe environment for them to play - I think we would see more kids get interested it.

Ultimately, I don't have any skin in the game so I'm not all that concerned about getting OTHER kids interested in pool. I think it's a great game and it can bring you years of enjoyment but so can other things. Not to mention, adult players are finding their local pool rooms closing left and right so I'm not so certain will we see any increase in youngsters playing any time soon.

That's all I have to say about that...what was this thread about again? :thumbup:

 

[K.Mcphee]

Pool does not have a problem gaining popularity with any generation. Players always come back no matter what pulls them away. For me, an avid player, it's the spewing to table time that keeps me away. It is the only game that I spend the most money on. A night of pool for me is many hours at the table, food and refreshments. I think what is killing the day warrior are the pool halls that have turned into weekender type halls. I don't blame them because they got to make their money, but I think they should also push for much less table time prices for the pool player. If you want to spend a day on the table you have to drive up to an hour to find good prices.

I was in Illinois last year and went to about 4 halls before ending up in a real poolhall. The prices were very moderate. It's a small cozy little poolhall but they had a few really nice tables. Every person in there was a pool player and they love the game. Those people I'm sure come at least every other day. There were some really obsessed players in there, and rightfully so. I think Jeannette Lee plays there whenever she is in town. The other BARS/Sportsbars had really bad equipment and outrageous prices....it was dead during the day. I came once at night and there were a ton of bangers...but the place was still dead. I'm pretty sure that if you take a few of those bangers and send them to the other place they would enjoy pool more.

Overall, I don't think pool is dieing. It's still gaining popularity everywhere.

 

[justnum]

I would bet AGAINST the top 20 players in the USA being willing to put in just TEN solid hours per week working on such an organization. And many of these people are my friends who I dearly admire. I'd give up weight that out of that group we could not get 200 hours of solid productive focused work towards building a better future for themselves and all pros.

More than the top 20 players manhandled Barry and the US Open to change how the tournament operates.

Looks like you've lost that bet already. Players know they don't have to create a new event, just make sure the existing ones have standards that are agreeable to the players.

If the players start targeting other events, or going after specific vendors, or members than nothing can stop them. Nothing stopped them from pushing Barry and the US Open around.

If people are wealthy enough to invest into pro pool players than that isn't a problem. Some people are wealthy enough to pay to have their opinions heard. The people who pay to have their opinions heard are a problem because they can spread rumors, fear and hate. The point is who is listening to the players on this forum.

More pro player bashing goes on, or straight manipulation and pressuring than anything else. That is what makes this a free forum.

Players have listened to the business people for decades and look at where pool is today. It is spiraling downward from having big tournament events to small time match-ups with less impressive payouts. Players just got to start taking ownership of their industry, setting standards for tournaments, tournament conditions, tournament scheduling and finding ways to make sure tournament operators stay honest and in business.

Doing what the business community thinks is best has proven a failure for decades already. I am interested in what the players can do to effect change in the billiards industry. Many are finding things like cue production, promotions, event productions, advertising, magazine publications and organizing. I am saying pool players just need some support. They don't need someone to tell them what to do, they need people telling them to try it on their own. Try something more than just playing pool. Will it require failure? Maybe. But what else have they go to lose.

Things that would make it easier to try on their own are people that have skills, not opinions.

 

[Holly]

They did that on purpose to avoid collusion. Deno wanted to make all the games count so that people couldn't collude to prevent others from getting through.

This is the bane of round robin formats where some people dump to others to pad the scores.

Much of what the IPT attempted to do was spot on. Yes they made many mistakes...we ALL do, but while Trudeau is still a bit of an inigma to me, I applaud that instead of completely washing his hands of the debt from the IPT, he used money from the sale of another book to help pay back those debts. I know many people who received money from him 6 months to a year after the IPT effectively shut down. He might still owe some money, I really don't know but have heard there are still some qualifier folks owed their $2000 for the last cancelled event that have not been paid, but Trudeau did pay back a lot. There are others in the sport that have tucked tail and ran...he did not.

Just addressing one issue that has been forefront in my head this week. I believe more now than ever there is a need to develop a more complex system for pro points to avoid collusion and dumping. As it stands now one match, if dumped, can have a huge impact on the pro points list and peoples lives and income. This happens sadly more than people would like to admit, address and accept. Many of us on this very thread are aware of that and those who have been involved...some who seem to be "good guys".

Additionally, there needs to be reprecusions and an investigative group in the industry that polices (please don't cringe with that word) such behavior, including unsportsmanlike conduct in professional level events. In most other professional sports, if anyone from a player to coach to even organizations (i.e. college athletic departments) show to be behaving illegally, unethically or unprofessionally, they can and are either fined or suspended. However without a more complex points system, how can any collusion or dumping be prevented or proven.

We talk about fixing pool...let's look at it like your looking at a house. Instead of saying the windows need to be fixed or it needs a new paint job, time to fix the foundation. It is not just the numbers calclulated for the points system...it's more than that. Addressing only the small items that need work and not the foundation would be like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

Until we show to be a responsible and trustworthy sport and industry internally tell me where is the motivation for anyone outside the sport to give two figs or want to promote or invest?