Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

[JB Cases]

More than the top 20 players manhandled Barry and the US Open to change how the tournament operates.

What did they change?

Nothing. The BCA stepped in to handle entry fees and guarantee the prize fund. If the BCA hadn't stepped in to mediate then the US Open would have gone off WITHOUT Barry meeting their demands.

Looks like you've lost that bet already. Players know they don't have to create a new event, just make sure the existing ones have standards that are agreeable to the players.

The bet was they won't put in ten hours a week of WORK. You telling me that the ABP board put in at least ten hours of ABP work by each board member per week leading up to the US Open to not only force Barry's hand but also to strengthen the ABP? I bet I am right.

If the players start targeting other events, or going after specific vendors, or members than nothing can stop them. Nothing stopped them from pushing Barry and the US Open around.

Nothing can stop them? Um how about promoters simply saying no thanks and doing it their way and paying whoever shows up, as Mark and your beloved Kevin Trudeau already pointed out? Or how about the promoters find other interesting things to invest their time and money into???

Where is that BIG OLD UPA TOUR hmmm? There you had a group that was all set up to demand things they way they wanted them to be. And yet the UPA is what now? No tour, do they even still actually exist???

Let's see the UPA is/was vehemently against women competing with the men. Well look how that played out. Jasmin Ouschan takes third in the Dragon Promotions World WPA World 14.1 Championship two years ago. Who started the UPA? Case closed.

If people are wealthy enough to invest into pro pool players than that isn't a problem. Some people are wealthy enough to pay to have their opinions heard. The people who pay to have their opinions heard are a problem because they can spread rumors, fear and hate. The point is who is listening to the players on this forum.

Huh?

More pro player bashing goes on, or straight manipulation and pressuring than anything else. That is what makes this a free forum.

Huh?

Players have listened to the business people for decades and look at where pool is today. It is spiraling downward from having big tournament events to small time match-ups with less impressive payouts. Players just got to start taking ownership of their industry, setting standards for tournaments, tournament conditions, tournament scheduling and finding ways to make sure tournament operators stay honest and in business.

Huh? Since I have been in the industry I have seen the player's organizations called the MPBA, the PPA (CJ Wiley's group), the UPA and NOW the ABP. Good luck with a player run organization.

Doing what the business community thinks is best has proven a failure for decades already. I am interested in what the players can do to effect change in the billiards industry. Many are finding things like cue production, promotions, event productions, advertising, magazine publications and organizing. I am saying pool players just need some support. They don't need someone to tell them what to do, they need people telling them to try it on their own. Try something more than just playing pool. Will it require failure? Maybe. But what else have they go to lose.

Dude, they play POOL for a living. Pool. Knocking balls into holes. If they want "support" then they should all give Ralf Souquet 10% of their earnings and elect him head of Teaching World Class Pool Players how to be PROFESSIONAL business people as well as PROFESSIONAL players.

Things that would make it easier to try on their own are people that have skills, not opinions.

Huh?

 

[JB Cases]

Overall, I don't think pool is dieing. It's still gaining popularity everywhere.

That's because you aren't privy to the sales numbers. If you were and part of the industry that tracks those numbers you would know that pool is right now at a very low point in the USA.

 

[K.Mcphee]

Until we show to be a responsible and trustworthy sport and industry internally tell me where is the motivation for anyone outside the sport to give two figs or want to promote or invest?

I think pool epitomize the word "INDUSTRY". It is the only sport that demands more from players than any other.

 

[K.Mcphee]

That's because you aren't privy to the sales numbers. If you were and part of the industry that tracks those numbers you would know that pool is right now at a very low point in the USA.

Yeah but that is just state of the world. Everything is experiencing a down turn for a while now. When things pick up so will our numbers.

 

[JB Cases]

I think pool epitomize the word "INDUSTRY". It is the only sport that demands more from players than any other.

How do you figure? I don't see the sport or the industry putting much demands on the players.

With the exception of the players not knowing if they are going to get paid or not at the end of the event that is. That's a pretty sorry state of existence.

Other than that players don't have nearly as much to comply with as in other sports. No drug testing for one thing.

 

[BasementDweller]

Yeah but that is just state of the world. Everything is experiencing a down turn for a while now. When things pick up so will our numbers.

I think that's the typical gut reaction. I've even thought that. But did pool experience a significant downturn during the Great Depression? I don't think so. There are some businesses that can find a way to excel in the midst of an economic downturn. I think pool used to be one of those. Heck, where did all the unemployed people hang out in the past? Now instead of hanging out at the pool room they sit at home eating cheetos and watching Storage Wars or some other stupid show.

 

[K.Mcphee]

How do you figure? I don't see the sport or the industry putting much demands on the players.

With the exception of the players not knowing if they are going to get paid or not at the end of the event that is. That's a pretty sorry state of existence.

Other than that players don't have nearly as much to comply with as in other sports. No drug testing for one thing.

I was not referring to previous incidents with people in the industry. I meant that the industry is less supportive of its athletes compared to other sports that have facilities, equipment, and money to give to their players from the money they make off them.

 

[JB Cases]

I was not referring to previous incidents with people in the industry. I meant that the industry is less supportive of its athletes compared to other sports that have facilities, equipment, and money to give to their players from the money they make off them.

Well I can tell you that with very very very few exceptions there isn't anyone in the industry that is making money off of the players through sponsorship.

The only ones making any money off the players are those few that have management contracts and happen to have winning players under contract.

Although that said I do think that the industry COULD afford to build and maintain specific training facilities if that were really needed.

 

[JCIN]

I think pool epitomize the word "INDUSTRY". It is the only sport that demands more from players than any other.

What does the "industry" demand exactly?

Pay your entry fee and show up for the added money? Pay table time when you want to play ? Buy a pool table if you dont want to pay the guy who did ?

I dont see any unreasonable "demands" there.

 

[Celtic]

They did that on purpose to avoid collusion. Deno wanted to make all the games count so that people couldn't collude to prevent others from getting through.

This is the bane of round robin formats where some people dump to others to pad the scores.

I know that arguement was made, but if you want the fans to be interested and excited in a sport THEY actually hav to know the rules and know how their favorite players can win. It was completely absurb to think the IPT system was not going to decimate the appeal of it to the fans.

I mean, is there anyone on AZB that is more into 9-foot 8-ball at the pro level then me? And even myself when I saw the system and watched the IPT was just left going "WTF... this is inept..." half of the time. When you lose ME of all people in a pro 8-ball tournament because of a convoluted progression system something is seriously wrong.

The whole reason they needed to avoid collusion was the round roblin format, they should have just went double elimination races to 13. With the amount of pool the multiple round robins demanded the race to 13 A side and race to 13 B side would have actually been less total time then round robin races to 8.

 

[Holly]

I think pool epitomize the word "INDUSTRY". It is the only sport that demands more from players than any other.

McPhee I respectfully have to disagree, in fact we demand little. Not only am I involved in the pool industry and have been in several ways behind the scenes for close to 16 years but am involved in many sports PR and Marketing organizations and groups and can tell you that in fact other sports require their professional players to (for example):

1. Adhere to a standard of behavior both on and off the field or venue anytime they are in public otherwise their are reprecussions. Hence $5000 - $50,000 fines for example.
2. Most organizations require players to participate, as part of their contracts for being on a team or playing, meet and greets, community involvement representing the team or sport. However many of those groups also have "handlers" who manage the players, tell them where they need to be, how long and why.
3. Drug testing requirements
4. Autograph session requirements
5. Interview requirements
6. Meet both team and group sponsor promotional requirements

 

[K.Mcphee]

I think that's the typical gut reaction. I've even thought that. But did pool experience a significant downturn during the Great Depression? I don't think so. There are some businesses that can find a way to excel in the midst of an economic downturn. I think pool used to be one of those. Heck, where did all the unemployed people hang out in the past? Now instead of hanging out at the pool room they sit at home eating cheetos and watching Storage Wars or some other stupid show.

The sport is not dead, just the purity of it is clouded with all the nonsense. I'm lucky because I have a player on call...lol...blessed. Very few of you can say you have something like that. So for me, it's not dead. I can call the guy right now and he can go over the phone exactly where I'm at in my game and the very next step. It gives me chills to think that something like that can even be possible...so that means nothing can keep this thing from dieing. In between he'll tell me stories of the past...and about the few guys that can do what he does.
It's just peoples capacity to understand pools greatness as a game....it has to be learned. That is the only thing holding people...and the game back.

 

[K.Mcphee]

What does the "industry" demand exactly?

Pay your entry fee and show up for the added money? Pay table time when you want to play ? Buy a pool table if you dont want to pay the guy who did ?

I dont see any unreasonable "demands" there.

"Demand" may have been a poor choice of word. I wrote quite a few paragraphs supporting the statement but decided to leave just the post as is. I meant nothing negative about you or anyone in the industry. I would rewrite what was written and erased but I feel you are capable of understanding where I'm coming from.

 

[Celtic]

Most people don't see pool like you and me do. They think it's boring, the way I think tennis is boring. In Philippines, pool is better than NFL in the States. We just happen to live in a country that doesn't think very highly of pool.

This is true in alot of ways and one of the main reasons that I think a professional tour moving into the future must have an international field of players, and I am sorry to the USA but the most important marketing of the sport is going to be done in Asia.

If I were to start a tour I would make it international, I would probably kick off the first event in Asia, The Philippines, perhaps China or Taipai. The marketing of the event would be heavy in Asia, places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Taipai, Korea, ect... would be seeing alot of marketing and there would be serious work to get TV deals and probably associations with one of the major casino companies along with travel companies.

Work and marketing done in Asia like that can pay off, you can get huge crowds and get alot of interest into the event and the tour. In the USA you can work you ass off to start a tour, market it like crazy, and it is not going to matter, you are going to get a drop in the bucket of interest, the TV stations will give you cock eyed funny looks when you mention "pool" to them.

Asia is where the growth of the sport would start, once the game had a solid footing and many fans I would start to move few events slowly out to Europe and America, which would be possible because the fans back in Asia would be watching their own professionals traveling to these places to compete and beat the Americans or Europeans on their own soil. You would need to USE the popularity and following the sport has in Asia to help push the fan interest in the sport in North America. Most sports fans are followers, they are sheep and will follow sports that other people follow because they want to be part of a large group of fans cheering something, and pool does not give those people that atm.

 

[justnum]

I was not referring to previous incidents with people in the industry. I meant that the industry is less supportive of its athletes compared to other sports that have facilities, equipment, and money to give to their players from the money they make off them.

That hit the point I was trying to get to bluntly. I was going to say something like business people like to talk about how challenging it is to rent out equipment and facilities in their hometown, having to deal with people that are upping prices and people that deliver late. Rarely is it ever heard that tournament organizers have to compete against other tournament organizers. But pool players are constantly competing against other players. the competition is easier for an organizer, their challenge is putting up the money and hoping for the players to show up. Unless another organizer schedules an event, but that doesn't happen often.

But you are right most times room owners sport most of the burden for players to get practice time in the area, and adjusted to the region, possibly even time zone. Room owners are the most cordial in the billiards industry because they are a 24/7 business.

As opposed to tournament or event organizer which does little to build a sense of community. They just take entry fees and send you on your way.

Room owners have better social skills which makes sense because they are customer oriented. While Organizers are more focused on hitting the attendance numbers or getting a full field. I guess its just a matter of business strategy.

In case of room owners their strategy incorporates giving players something to be a part of. While organizers give players a chance at a lottery.

It is mostly take from a organizers perspective, they take your entry fee, then they take the money people pay to see you play. While players give, they give entry fee, vacation from a practical job and possibly some great match-ups.

 

[jason]

The pool world is delusional.

 

[K.Mcphee]

What does the "industry" demand exactly?

Pay your entry fee and show up for the added money? Pay table time when you want to play ? Buy a pool table if you dont want to pay the guy who did ?

I dont see any unreasonable "demands" there.

You know what? what's with this negativity? I never said specifically that people such as yourself are leeches. I just supported Holly's statement about changing certain things about pool, supporting that idea in a sense that other sports supports their players more by having outside money, whereas pool dosen't have that support.

 

[justnum]

You know what? what's with this negativity? I never said specifically that people such as yourself are leeches. I just supported Holly's statement about changing certain things about pool, supporting that idea in a sense that other sports supports their players more by having outside money, whereas pool dosen't have that support.

introducing ideas that involve organizers doing more work is like explaining trigonometry. It doesn't help solve immediate problems like getting more out of the players for nothing.

But I said in another post how strongly your idea came across, about the organizers doing more.

 

[jason]

You know what? what's with this negativity? I never said specifically that people such as yourself are leeches. I just supported Holly's statement about changing certain things about pool, supporting that idea in a sense that other sports supports their players more by having outside money, whereas pool dosen't have that support.

I don't see where he is being negative. I do see JCIN being attacked in this thread by some people who "don't know shit." To even insinuate that JCIN is an industry leech is total BS. He has done more for promoting pool in recent history than anyone else IMO. JCIN was the first that I know of to stream pool and offer a pay-per-view type service, not KT.

Someone really needs to put a factual billiard history timeline together to dispel all of the inaccuracy that get spewed around on this forum.

 

[K.Mcphee]

I don't see where he is being negative. I do see JCIN being attacked in this thread by some people who "don't know shit." To even insinuate that JCIN is an industry leech is total BS. He has done more for promoting pool in recent history than anyone else IMO. JCIN was the first that I know of to stream pool and offer a pay-per-view type service, not KT.

Someone really needs to put a factual billiard history timeline together to dispel all of the inaccuracy that get spewed around on this forum.

But that was my point. I never said anything like that for him to infer that I dislike are disagree with what he is doing for pool. He made the comment " Buy a pool table if you don't want to pay the guy for buying one".

If I said something along the line of " industry people are leeching of pool players", he would be right to comment that I was out of line. But I was merely suggesting that we as pool players have less material than other sports who have more. If you want to be a baseball player, you have all the support in the world since little league to high school, college and AAA to pay for all your expenses.

For all those who feel insulted from my comments, I sincerely apologize because I did not mean it in a negative way.