Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

Mark,

WHY can't we at least get the finals of the BCA Amateur nationals on ESPN? I mean hotdog eating contests and spelling bees are on there?

I personally believe that this would make for exciting pool tv much more than any pro event.

Why would we need ESPN? IPT was scheduled to air on a non-sports channel. It had regular running commercials. All the drama and excitement of watching your favorite players and entertainers was what got me into wanting to watch it. Even if I hardly play pool I would tune in to see whats happening.

Am I making sense or was all that fake? Some scheme put on by tradeau and heavily marketed on AZ to stick it in the ribs of pool players?
 
You need to get a grasp on the IPT issue. IPT was a FLOP financially. There was almost no TV time. The model did NOT work!

Please do a search on here for IPT - you will have a lot of reading.

I am not trying to be rude but many of your questions have been discussed to death before.

Perhaps you and Justnum should get together because you both refer to the IPT like it was the answer.

It was not.

Mark Griffin



Why would we need ESPN? IPT was scheduled to air on a non-sports channel. It had regular running commercials. All the drama and excitement of watching your favorite players and entertainers was what got me into wanting to watch it. Even if I hardly play pool I would tune in to see whats happening.

Am I making sense or was all that fake? Some scheme put on by tradeau and heavily marketed on AZ to stick it in the ribs of pool players?
 
You need to get a grasp on the IPT issue. IPT was a FLOP financially. There was almost no TV time. The model did NOT work!

Please do a search on here for IPT - you will have a lot of reading.

I am not trying to be rude but many of your questions have been discussed to death before.

Perhaps you and Justnum should get together because you both refer to the IPT like it was the answer.

It was not.

Mark Griffin

What do you suggest from your experience as a pool player to make pool better than what is it now, that would be so different than something like the IPT?

On a sidenote...do you really think it is appropriate to ask me and justnam to get together and discuss a topic you apparently feel is a failure?

You have laughed at me in my earlier post and now you're making another comment in such a manner. I've done nothing more than state my opinions. There are a few others that have shown support for the IPT...do you suggest we start a club and talk about the IPT? with these AZ members?

I'm sorry if I am out of line, but I'm getting really tired of apologizing...and everyone's condescending remarks. I know you are a big figure in the pool community but I've been nothing more than respectful in my posts towards you or anybody else. Justnum has every right to say what he feels and not be ridiculed for it.

I'm starting to wonder why there are people so against what he has to say.
 
Justnum has every right to say what he feels and not be ridiculed for it.

I'm starting to wonder why there are people so against what he has to say.

Sorry, if he says stupid sh*t like "TAR is the bastard child of the IPT", he's going to get ridiculed.
 
What would work might be:

- 45-60 second shot clock (no extensions)
- 4.000" or 4.125" pockets
- 9' tables
- Longer races but within the attention-span of an average player. I'm thinking 1 hour at the outside. Anything more would make it monotonous for an average person.
- Stalemate condition (7 innings without a ball pocketed)

I agree with all of that except the stalemate condition. As long as the two players are playing defensive shots that progress the game there is not reason whatsoever to end the game. Snooker has long safety battles at times that are crucial to winning the frame and the fans enjoy those moments every bit as much as the century runs, it is in the safety battles that you have a chance to see the amazing kick shots, masse shots, ect... Each and every tough return safety has the game on the line.

If snooker got into a huge safety battle on the last red where a player needed a snooker to win and they went and re-racked after 7 consecutive non-pot shots it would be idiotic. It is no less idiotic in 8-ball to re-rack a game in a crucial safety battle where things are moving and the table is shifting. The only proper time to call a stalemate is when both players refuse to actually move balls, where they both cannot do anything even with ball in hand, normally when the 8-ball is in the jaws of the pocket and a player has a ball frozen to it such that you cannot legally hit the 8 and you cannot legally hit the other object ball without making the 8, at that point noone is going to touch either ball because the 8 will drop on an illegal shot and they will lose the game. That is a stalemate condition.

And as far as the comment from Mark and Justin that 8-ball makes more sense for the pro's on the 7-foots because that is what the amatures play on? The ONLY reason the amatures play on those is because the pubs and bars where league is normally played have 7-foot tables solely due to space issues. That is why the amatures play on 7-foot tables. It is not that amatures "like" 7-foot tables in truth, I see most amature casual players in the few pool halls in Calgary playing on the 9-foots, rarely do they play on the bar boxes by choice. We in league play on the bar boxes because that is what we are required to play on due to league rules. When we gamble we tend to go to the 9-foots.

You cannot put pro 8-ball pool on the 7-foot tables, it is too easy to shoot on those tables and the game will fail. If the reason to put the game on those tables is to actually see it fail and then say "see, pro 8-ball does not work, told ya!" then understand right now, it is already known that it WOULD fail on 7-foot tables in the long run, that is in no way a sustainable game for professional play.

There is no great disconnect between the pro's and amatures if the pros play on 9-foot tables with 4 inch pockets. The PGA has their pros playing off of back tees on courses like Augusta which have greens 10 times as fast as anything amature golfers have ever dreamed could exist. And yet the amatures go out and play their short courses from the white tees and slow greens, then they go home and drink a beer and watch the professional golfers playing in the US Open on 650 yard par 5's. That works and it would work fine for pool as well.

You need to put the pro game onto the proper equipment for 8-ball if you are ever going to actually do it or else you are setting out to fail before the first break even takes place. The game needs to be played on larger tables with 4 to 4 1/8 inch pockets or don't bother at all, seriously.

I don't need or want to watch it done on the wrong equipment and fail. If it is not done on 9-foots or larger with 4 1/8th inch pockets or smaller then don't bother doing it at all, it is not going to work.
 
Sorry, if he says stupid sh*t like "TAR is the bastard child of the IPT", he's going to get ridiculed.

I guest you guys have history. That's kinda funny tho. How is TAR offspring of IPT? Nevermind...I am someone unaware of all this and will leave this thread alone. Apologizes for anything said that may have offended anyone. Good luck with legitimizing pool as a spectator sport.
 
I guest you guys have history. That's kinda funny tho. How is TAR offspring of IPT? Nevermind...I am someone unaware of all this and will leave this thread alone. Apologizes for anything said that may have offended anyone. Good luck with legitimizing pool as a spectator sport.

TAR is as much the offspring of the IPT as Steve Jobs was of former Vice President Al Gore ;)
 
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with JUST ONE....One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules for all of Pool?

Yeah, just like Baseball. Oops, AL & NL have different rules. Or, maybe like football. Oh, that's right, Pro/College/under have different rules. So much for that analogy.

Normally, when I'm playing somebody that I haven't played before.. I ask: BCA, call pocket or bar rules? That usually clears things up real quick.

And as far as the comment from Mark and Justin that 8-ball makes more sense for the pro's on the 7-foots because that is what the amatures play on? The ONLY reason the amatures play on those is because the pubs and bars where league is normally played have 7-foot tables solely due to space issues. That is why the amatures play on 7-foot tables. It is not that amatures "like" 7-foot tables in truth, I see most amature casual players in the few pool halls in Calgary playing on the 9-foots, rarely do they play on the bar boxes by choice. We in league play on the bar boxes because that is what we are required to play on due to league rules. When we gamble we tend to go to the 9-foots.

You cannot put pro 8-ball pool on the 7-foot tables, it is too easy to shoot on those tables and the game will fail. If the reason to put the game on those tables is to actually see it fail and then say "see, pro 8-ball does not work, told ya!" then understand right now, it is already known that it WOULD fail on 7-foot tables in the long run, that is in no way a sustainable game for professional play.

I like barbox 8 a lot. Big tables are mostly just shoot-outs. The small table makes people creative, imho. Of course, that argument has gone and will go on for quite some time.

The pro game on a barbox could work. A longer race would be best, since the games may go a bit quicker and the runs a little longer. And if somebody runs the set, it could just be settled like college ball - let em go back n forth until somebody messes up.

In a pool hall, I'd rather be playing on the 9s if I'm there. What's the point otherwise, because I can just shoot on the barboxes down the street all the time.

Maybe if they played it on 9' tables, but made the balls a comparable size. :D
 
[/QUOTE]Maybe if they played it on 9' tables, but made the balls a comparable size. :D[/QUOTE]

That reminds me a bit of Pyramid :)
 
I'm starting to wonder why there are people so against what he has to say.


I have been wondering the same thing.

If they can't handle a little criticism how do they expect to win over pool players? The best chance they have is offering money, because they aren't half as talented as Kevin was with talking (Kevin, founder of the IPT).

Some like to remember the damage done by the IPT, others can remember all the good it did. Whatever the case, it happened and people are having a hard time living up to the standards it set.
 
I have been wondering the same thing.

If they can't handle a little criticism how do they expect to win over pool players? The best chance they have is offering money, because they aren't half as talented as Kevin was with talking (Kevin, founder of the IPT).

Some like to remember the damage done by the IPT, others can remember all the good it did. Whatever the case, it happened and people are having a hard time living up to the standards it set.

Calling TAR a bastard child of the IPT isn't constructive criticism, its a blatant lie and shows nothing but ignorance and disrespect. And if you have to wonder about why you were reacted to poorly after that statement, you're eve more dense than it appears. Congrats on being a key board warrior, and a poor one at that.
 
I have been wondering the same thing.

If they can't handle a little criticism how do they expect to win over pool players? The best chance they have is offering money, because they aren't half as talented as Kevin was with talking (Kevin, founder of the IPT).

Some like to remember the damage done by the IPT, others can remember all the good it did. Whatever the case, it happened and people are having a hard time living up to the standards it set.

The utter lack of intelligence is what sets the fire to the fuse.... Even when people in the know point out the errors in thought and judgement it is rebuffed as opinion... So far any response is exactly like the words I am writing... A complete waste of time.........
 
Yeah, just like Baseball. Oops, AL & NL have different rules. Or, maybe like football. Oh, that's right, Pro/College/under have different rules. So much for that analogy.

I did not use Baseball as the example, but to restate the reason I used NFL Football was:

"As the NFL has become very successful after putting (2) Professional Football Leagues together the Old American Football League, and the Old National Football League in to making up the NFL.

One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules, and one big success. Super Bowl is the MOST WATCH TV Event annually, and advertisers line up to support the NFL.

The NFL is reaching out to Youth in NFL Flag Football program that are "NFL Branded". no not all the kids will play in the real NFL, but many will become the NEXT GENERATION of NFL Fans who spend what on NFL Tickets, Memorabilia, Merchandise, and last with NFL Advertisers like the Budweiser Beer Brand products."





 
I have been wondering the same thing.

If they can't handle a little criticism how do they expect to win over pool players? The best chance they have is offering money, because they aren't half as talented as Kevin was with talking (Kevin, founder of the IPT).

Some like to remember the damage done by the IPT, others can remember all the good it did. Whatever the case, it happened and people are having a hard time living up to the standards it set.

Is Kevin Tredeu talented? Sure he is. Is KT a convicted felon? Sure he is. Did KT put on a top rate show for with the IPT? Sure he did. Did he copy the idea of streaming 1 on 1 matches? Sure he did. Did KT lose a lot of money? Sure he did.

Would you like to buy my new book, "101 Way to Fix Pool They Don't Want You to Know About?" Sure you do. Send $19.95 to Sucker@PayPal.com
 
Is Kevin Tredeu talented? Sure he is. Is KT a convicted felon? Sure he is. Did KT put on a top rate show for with the IPT? Sure he did. Did he copy the idea of streaming 1 on 1 matches? Sure he did. Did KT lose a lot of money? Sure he did.

Would you like to buy my new book, "101 Way to Fix Pool They Don't Want You to Know About?" Sure you do. Send $19.95 to Sucker@PayPal.com

KT didn't copy streaming billiards, he founded it. After that TAR copied him. And it seems like room owners are going to copy TAR.

But prior to KT streaming, ESPN was the main source of billiard content distribution. So billiards streaming didn't go big until KT blew it up then imitators watered it down and now room owners are trying to rebuild it.

The IPT events flunked then the IPT challenge matches began. And that is what TAR copies, IPT challenge match. Except at a smaller level. Smaller meaning longer matches and more misses, its like waiting for the first person to get tired. A big level is seeing players well rested and putting their all on the line in a short amount of time. It is bigger that way because players can't rely on someone else getting tired to win. In a short match a player is willing to risk more and play big, than to play safe like in a long event, where they know they can afford a few mistakes.

I never said copying another persons' idea is bad. Let just give credit when credit is due. Usually people come up with similiar ideas independent of each other but the first person to act on it gets the credit. In this case through the IPT Kevin gets the credit. That is all I said. Getting all emotional and whining about how insecure your thoughts on the idea are doesn't change what happened.
 
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I did not use Baseball as the example, but to restate the reason I used NFL Football was:

"As the NFL has become very successful after putting (2) Professional Football Leagues together the Old American Football League, and the Old National Football League in to making up the NFL.

One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules, and one big success. Super Bowl is the MOST WATCH TV Event annually, and advertisers line up to support the NFL.

The NFL is reaching out to Youth in NFL Flag Football program that are "NFL Branded". no not all the kids will play in the real NFL, but many will become the NEXT GENERATION of NFL Fans who spend what on NFL Tickets, Memorabilia, Merchandise, and last with NFL Advertisers like the Budweiser Beer Brand products."






Football cannot even be compared to pool. First of all, football is a team sport and not an individual sport. Pool is boring to watch even to hardcore fans. Football has primal appeal with action and violence. Thousands can comfortably watch a football game in person, a handful can watch pool.

Now for the fact that there is one NFL, MLB, NBA. It isn't because these sports got together and decided it was in the best interest of the sport to have one league. They were businesses first. One business consumed the other smaller businesses. Just like the big box companies are swallowing up the mom and pops. With the exclusion of baseball, most other sports are constantly changing and adapting their rules. Baseball was almost perfectly designed from the start.

The pool organization with the most stable business plan is the APA. Unfortunately, they have the worst playing system and no interest in bringing the pool world together for the best interest of the sport. As with every business, their decisions are based on what is in their best interest.
 
I did not use Baseball as the example, but to restate the reason I used NFL Football was:[/SIZE][/FONT]

I know, I know. You're just too easy to poke at, since you have a tendancy to be straight-forward and don't go with name-calling.

One of the big problems is that "big" sports - baseball, football, soccer.. as long as there's a ball, you've got a game. For pool, there has to be an acceptably-maintained table, your own cue(normally several hundred) etc etc. It can be difficult to hold one's attention for an excellently played match - either offensively or defensively. When done correctly, it almost seems boring or simplistic.

Pool's foundation is in it's "me vs you", "for the cash" and all of the "glory". Poker doesn't try to make itself out to be something that it's not - they emphasize suspense of flipping cards, they emphasize the cash and they put a spotlight on the players making it into the money rounds regularly.

One thing that bugs me watching pool on TV is listening to the announcers talking about what the player is going to do, then seeing them get it wrong half the time. That's also another thing during league that makes me want to :boring2:, after seeing years ago that there's about a hundred ways to finish out an easy rack. Maybe if they spent more time helping the viewers with how the show was made and why, that would pass on more knowledge to the folks at home.

I would also like to see pool halls actually getting involved with streaming. In a lot of places, there will be things on TV that reflect the business - like a sports bar with football, a salon with Friends or Jerry Springer, a more serious business with CNN Headline News.. pool halls should be purchasing these streams. I'd pay $5 to go sweat a TAR match at the pool hall and I'd probably be all hyped up to want to play afterwards, too. I'll be mentioning this at league tonight - they've got a good set up with couches around a big screen.
 
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