High English Thoughts

elvicash

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question about high english

If with high english it is not possible to significantly overspin the cue ball with high english what is the use of ever hitting the cue ball higher than 2/5 above center (70% of cue ball height) according to physics this is where a perfect level collision of tip to CB is assured to give a rolling cue ball. On the other hand the teaching pro Mark Wilson has mentioned to me in the past that there is value at hitting the cue ball very high with a level cue he calls this pro grade high and the cue ball seems to be more empowered loaded up so to say.

If it is not possible to over spin the cue ball and perfectly rolling is the best that is actually accomplished why do the pro players who shot so straight and control the cue ball direction so well after hitting the object, they seem to pick exactly how high to hit the cue ball as if it really matters. Are they just picking how much roll vs slide is on the ball when cueing above center. If they hit the ball high or much at all above center and it is a distance beyond two or three diamonds to the cue ball wont the cue ball be naturally rolling when it arrives especially if they do not shoot hard say a normall pocket speed stroke or softer.

When great straight pool players break racks or significant clusters and hit the ball high and land full on cluster/rack the cue ball seems to takeoff with spin and fight its way through the cluster, especially when they have a thin hit on the break ball. Does this mean they just hit a very fast cue ball and that cue ball is naturally rolling with the table and it stops on impact and the rolling rotational spins then comes in effect.

I have seen the youtube demos and the Dr Dave site showing that naturally rolling is the effective forward spin limit coming off the tip. But it seem to me that there is more to this to understand high english.

We have all seen someone or perhaps ourselves hit it good when drawing the cue ball, is there really no such paralell with high english. It seems there is to me it is even a shot in the Kamui tip demo shot set I do not rember the number but there is a shot or two that are high ball dependant. Chime in with thought or videos/clips of good high english shots or control shots with high.

Here is the Kamui shot #9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEXa9J4PqbU

Is that a good stroke or just well hit at the right speed (maybe that is the same thing).
 
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elvicash said:
We have all seen someone or perhaps ourselves hit it good when drawing the cue ball, is there really no such paralell with high english. It seems there is to me it is even a shot in the Kamui tip demo shot set I do not rember the number but there is a shot or two that are high ball dependant. Chime in with thought or videos/clips of good high english shots or control shots with high.

Here is the Kamui shot #9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEXa9J4PqbU

Is that a good stroke or just well hit at the right speed (maybe that is the same thing).
Click to expand...

It looks like he's hitting it with extreme left at mid-level. As the cue ball comes off the cushion it flips over somewhat and the spin gets traction on the felt and arcs.
 
elvicash said:
I have a question about high english

If with high english it is not possible to significantly overspin the cue ball with high english what is the use of ever hitting the cue ball higher than 2/5 above center (70% of cue ball height) according to physics this is where a perfect level collision of tip to CB is assured to give a rolling cue ball. On the other hand the teaching pro Mark Wilson has mentioned to me in the past that there is value at hitting the cue ball very high with a level cue he calls this pro grade high and the cue ball seems to be more empowered loaded up so to say.

If it is not possible to over spin the cue ball and perfectly rolling is the best that is actually accomplished why do the pro players who shot so straight and control the cue ball direction so well after hitting the object, they seem to pick exactly how high to hit the cue ball as if it really matters. Are they just picking how much roll vs slide is on the ball when cueing above center. If they hit the ball high or much at all above center and it is a distance beyond two or three diamonds to the cue ball wont the cue ball be naturally rolling when it arrives especially if they do not shoot hard say a normall pocket speed stroke or softer.

When great straight pool players break racks or significant clusters and hit the ball high and land full on cluster/rack the cue ball seems to takeoff with spin and fight its way through the cluster, especially when they have a thin hit on the break ball. Does this mean they just hit a very fast cue ball and that cue ball is naturally rolling with the table and it stops on impact and the rolling rotational spins then comes in effect.

I have seen the youtube demos and the Dr Dave site showing that naturally rolling is the effective forward spin limit coming off the tip. But it seem to me that there is more to this to understand high english.

We have all seen someone or perhaps ourselves hit it good when drawing the cue ball, is there really no such paralell with high english. It seems there is to me it is even a shot in the Kamui tip demo shot set I do not rember the number but there is a shot or two that are high ball dependant. Chime in with thought or videos/clips of good high english shots or control shots with high.

Here is the Kamui shot #9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEXa9J4PqbU

Is that a good stroke or just well hit at the right speed (maybe that is the same thing).
Click to expand...

I don't understand your question...are you saying it's not possible to effectively overspin the cueball with follow, thereby causing the cue ball to accelerate after contact with the object ball? That's news to me...those arching shots you see in the Kamui vids aren't possible with only side spin...the cue ball has to be spinning forward or backward to cause friction with the cloth and "grab" to change its direction. A cueball can "hold" that sliding action for a lot longer than you'd think, too. Try shooting the cue ball with low left english softly down the table and watch it slowly "bend" in the direction of english. It doesn't just bend immediately and straighten out, you'd be surprised how long the bend continues. Shoot the same stroke with absolutely no follow or draw, just side...no bend (although it will have a little squirt). Shooting harder with a level cue negates the bend a little (it slides straighter, overcoming the friction)...that's why shooting a wrinkle around an interfering ball is best with a medium or soft stroke than a hard fast stroke. You use speed to control the bend.

I probably don't understand what you're asking..........:confused:
 
I'm also have been convinced that off the cue tip, there is no such thing as "over spin". (U-Tube....Mike Page)

There are two different energies that you can impart on the cue ball. Directional & Rotational. One at a time or together.

Once the Directional energy has dissipated, Rotational energy may still be there.

The simple explanation is a Stop Shot. When the cue ball contacts the object ball head on (100%), the cue ball stops!!!!!!! But if it has a little forward or back spin on it, then it will move accordingly. The Directional energy is gone and the Rotational energy now become Directional energy.

WOW....that's more than I posted all year. I better shut up and let Bob Jewett take over.....:-)
randyg
 
I understood the original poster's question and think its a good one. What he is saying is:

If we accept that there is no overspin as shown by the physics guys

-And-

That hitting the cue ball at 2/5 ths above center (70%) is the location when a rolling cue ball occurs (also as shown by the physics guys)

-Then-

Why do pros ever hit much higher above that? Are the statements above not true, and that is why the pros hit higher? Or would the pros get the exact same cue ball path if they hit at the 70% mark instead of much higher?
 
That 70% is where the tip actually contacts the cue ball. To achieve that 70% you have to cue the tip higher (80%?) so that the bottom part of the curved tip touches the 70% point on the curved cue ball.

Is it possible that the pros really are hitting pretty close to 70% when it looks higher?

Just a thought.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I understood the original poster's question and think its a good one. What he is saying is:

If we accept that there is no overspin as shown by the physics guys

-And-

That hitting the cue ball at 2/5 ths above center (70%) is the location when a rolling cue ball occurs (also as shown by the physics guys)

-Then-

Why do pros ever hit much higher above that? Are the statements above not true, and that is why the pros hit higher? Or would the pros get the exact same cue ball path if they hit at the 70% mark instead of much higher?
Click to expand...


I don't accept that there is no overspin...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIYecrJ5ec . What's that? Am I misunderstanding the OP here?
 
West Point 1987 said:
I don't accept that there is no overspin...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIYecrJ5ec . What's that? Am I misunderstanding the OP here?
Click to expand...
Well, there is some confusion.

On the shot shown, which is more or less standard artistic billiard action, the player has tremendous RPMs on the ball when it leaves the cue tip but he also has tremendous speed. In combination the cue ball is probably rolling smoothly on the cloth between tip contact and ball-ball contact. But when the cue ball hits the object ball, it looses 90% of its speed (or so) and almost none of its spin. That means the spin-speed ratio has gone from 1:1 (smooth rolling) to 10:1. Huge, amazing, overpowering overspin!!!! The player also gets a bounce off the rail which helps keep the cue ball from curving forward too soon.

But the shot does not require the ball to have overspin as it leaves the tip.

Every time you shoot a nearly straight follow shot, the cue ball has overspin just after it hits the object ball. There are plenty of high-speed videos around that show both the smooth rolling prior to contact and the overspin after contact for shots like that.

I also suspect that the player in the clip greased the cue ball for better action.
 
On shots that require extreme follow (let's say breaking up a 14.1 muck), I like to pivot to a high english position. This technique only works when no balls are impeding your setup and the rail isn't in the way.

You cue isn't level, you're technically hitting up on the CB. If "overspin" is what you seek, play around with that technique. Hey, that rhymes. I'm a poet and don't even noet.
 
elvicash said:
I have a question about high english

When great straight pool players break racks or significant clusters and hit the ball high and land full on cluster/rack the cue ball seems to takeoff with spin and fight its way through the cluster, especially when they have a thin hit on the break ball. Does this mean they just hit a very fast cue ball and that cue ball is naturally rolling with the table and it stops on impact and the rolling rotational spins then comes in effect.
Click to expand...

I've seen this where the cue ball actually seems to hesitate before smashing into the rack. I distinctly remember a guy my speed {years ago;)} hitting a shot like this and I was really impressed by it. I think I may have done it maybe once over the years. Seems to me it was a huge amount of follow with no english but I can't remember for sure.
 
Its all about how and where the force is being applied to the CB. Whenever you spin the CB, you are using a certain about of force to apply torque to the CB.

Consider the idea of spinning the rear wheel on a car. First step is to build up some torque in the engine by high rpm and then, in case of a manual transmission, you dump the clutch, applying that torque almost instantaneously to the center of the rear wheel which is not moving and just happens to be the center of rotation for the wheel.

From the wheels point of view, that force is instantaneously and if great enough to overcome the the traction and the car is heavy enough, the wheels are gone spin first, then start to move the car forward.

Spinning a CB is different in the that force is not applied at the center of the CB but at some point on its outer surface. Think of a using a wrench to torque something. The length of the wrench and the direction of force is applied to the end of the wrench affect how much torque and how much force is needed.

In tightening a bolt, if the force is applied straight to the end of the wrench in the direction of the bolt head, there is no rotation. As the force being applied moves to being 90 degree to the end of the wrench, more of that force being applied is used for torque. Maximum torque occurs only when the applied force is 90 degrees to the torque arm (in this case a wrench).

Now, in the above, the bolt only turns. A CB turns like the bolt, but also rolls.

So, now, the force being applied to the CB can be used for both, rolling the CB and spinning the CB.

With a true center ball hit,level cue stick hit, all the force from the cue is used to move the CB forward. Once you move away from a true center hit, that force is now being used to spin the CB and move the CB.

The CB has a torque arm like a wrench which happens to be the radius of the CB. The two points needed to make this arm is the center of the CB and where ever the cue stick tip contacts the CB.

Like applying force 90 degrees to the end of a wrench for maximum torque being applied, the same is true of being able to get the cue stick as close to 90 degrees to the CB torque arm based on where you are hitting the CB.

So, to get over spin like a spinning wheel, the force being applied has to appear as being instantaneously, which to the CB it is, and someway to hinder forward motion like the weight of the car in the case of spinning a cars wheel.

Since hitting high applies a force that is in the same direction as the CB will go, it gonna be kinda hard to add enough force to do more spin than forward motion.

A draw shot is applying a force that is in the opposite direction of the motion of the CB , so you can apply enough force to make the CB spin before it moves.

Quite simple really.

Oh for a 2.25 CB, 70% is 1.575 inches above the table or .45 inches above a center ball hit.
 
elvicash said:
I have a question about high english

If with high english it is not possible to significantly overspin the cue ball with high english what is the use of ever hitting the cue ball higher than 2/5 above center (70% of cue ball height) according to physics this is where a perfect level collision of tip to CB is assured to give a rolling cue ball.
Click to expand...
I think you're point is well made, especially the part I underlined. Realize, though, that when you hit 2/5'ths above center, that is, actually make contact 2/5'ths above center after allowing for tip curvature, squirt reduces the offset because the force is directed a little below that. (However, it should also be noted that ball rotation during contact increases the effective offset, but the actual offset you get depends, essentially, on how much squirt your shaft produces.)

The higher up you hit, the greater the spin/speed ratio is generated as well as absolute spin rate (revs per second). But the law of diminishing returns is at work, because the ball's speed is reduced as the offset is increased.

All that aside, I think you can concoct situations where you would need every ounce of spin you can produce (e.g., curling around the object ball or a potentially interfering ball and then bending the cueball's subsequent path forward as much as possible to avoid something else.) Thus, hitting as high as you can without miscuing would be the way to go.

Jim
 
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Hola,

i m just a bit amused, that some guys now really could think, that this shot could be done better with a kamui- this shot can be done with every leather tip on this planet-not matter if it s elkmaster, milk-dud, LePro and, and etc...
 
Ratta said:
Hola,

i m just a bit amused, that some guys now really could think, that this shot could be done better with a kamui- this shot can be done with every leather tip on this planet-not matter if it s elkmaster, milk-dud, LePro and, and etc...
Click to expand...

Stop that! I had hope that I would get past 15 yrs of being stuck at banger level by sticking a Kamui tip on the end of my Predator shaft. Thanks for ruining that hope for me!
 
Great responses. I agree with Randy the cue ball has linear translation velocity and rotation spin. When the cue ball hits the object square or full it loses all its linear energy and actually stops then the spin takes over getting the ball going again converting spin to linear speed.

Bob might have pointed out a good way to think about this a ratio of linear speed to rotational spin surface speed.

I agree with the other posters the cue ball seems to float sometimes and then the rotational spin takes over. I always thought the cue ball could be overloaded or overspun off the cue tip but am starting to think that is not true to any significant amount.

It is abovious you can have overspin versus linear speed when coming off objects other than a tip the most obvious example is full ball hit draw shot the cue ball stops in its tracks and starts coming back. the ball picks up linear speed as it gives up rotational spin but the cue ball has definitely got overspin relative to that reverse direction sometimes you see the ball speed up backwards a second time as it draws. Bob in the past suggested to me the cue ball is actually off the table bed (bounced up off impact) and the acceleration surges you see is as the ball comes back in contact with the table bed.

When I work through the wagon wheel system. Wagon Wheel system setup per Ted G. Brown -- Object Ball center spot move the ball one ball width striaght to the side pocket. Set the cue ball in line for a short nearly straight in shotcue ball 10 inches away and a half inch up table. I can hit a dead ball and hit the center diamond on the end rail cue ball down the tangent line. With full high I can hit the just below the side and by varying the amount of high I can get the cue ball to go toward all of the diamonds in between. So working my way though these shots is simply controlling the rotio of roll to speed. This means to me I am pure rolling the cue to get to the diamond by the side and having less and less roll to move down through the other diamonds so my stroke is controlling the slide to roll rate of the cue ball.

I reccomend the Wagon Wheel system drills by Ted Brown for anyone interested in getting control of the vertical axis.

This might help me play better I was always trying to add more over spin high to achieve more forward motion rather I should be paying more attention to the speed spin ratio.

As to the Kamui shot I cannot believe the guy is hitting that with pure side english but I will watch it some more.
 
West Point 1987 said:
I don't accept that there is no overspin...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIYecrJ5ec . What's that? Am I misunderstanding the OP here?
Click to expand...

How long did that ball overspin? 1/50th of a rotation? Less? You can see that before the ball barely moves, the *extremely* small amount of "overspin" has already changed to normal roll. I would not consider this video proof of there being "overspin".

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
How long did that ball overspin? 1/50th of a rotation? Less? You can see that before the ball barely moves, the *extremely* small amount of "overspin" has already changed to normal roll. I would not consider this video proof of there being "overspin".

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

AMEN!!
randyg
 
elvicash said:
As to the Kamui shot I cannot believe the guy is hitting that with pure side english but I will watch it some more.
Click to expand...

He's not. Side would never bend the cueball like that. That shot behaves as if struck with straight top, lots of it. There must be rotation of the cueball about its vertical axis to cause it to bend like that. Side alone will only change the path off the rail, NOT bend that path.

KMRUNOUT
 
My take on it:

Great players can cue higher on the cue ball than average players because their stroke's are so much better. What I mean is -- the pros can cue right near the miscue limit and constantly avoid miscuing. Us mere mortals subconsciously move further away from the miscue limit because the closer we get to the miscue zone, the more often our stroke errors will lead us to miscue.
 
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