Physics Question about Throw

[Dan White]

I know this has been gone over in the past, but I'm kind of refining short position control with the cue ball and thought I'd see if one of the physicists can confirm my suspicions.

In short, is it possible to reduce how much the cb drifts sideways by aiming more full on the ob and using english to throw? Let's say I have an ob about 12 inches from the cb and the ob is lined up about half a diamond to the right of a corner pocket. When I cut the ob to the left in order to pocket the ball, I want to hold the cue ball from drifting as much as possible to the right. I can shoot two ways (assume with stun): 1, just hit low and soft with no english, or 2, aim full at the ob with tons of low right english to throw the ob. SHOULD both methods give the same result in terms of how far the cue ball drifts to the right?

In working on this shot, I find that I can make the cue ball drift sideways only about 1 ball width when throwing, whereas with just center draw I get about 2 ball widths. I'm trying to cheat the pocket the same each time and make sure I'm only comparing the best results of each method.

So will a "stun throw" shot cause less cb drift than a simple stun shot, or are my results incorrect?

Thanks!

 

[naji]

I know this has been gone over in the past, but I'm kind of refining short position control with the cue ball and thought I'd see if one of the physicists can confirm my suspicions.

In short, is it possible to reduce how much the cb drifts sideways by aiming more full on the ob and using english to throw? Let's say I have an ob about 12 inches from the cb and the ob is lined up about half a diamond to the right of a corner pocket. When I cut the ob to the left in order to pocket the ball, I want to hold the cue ball from drifting as much as possible to the right. I can shoot two ways (assume with stun): 1, just hit low and soft with no english, or 2, aim full at the ob with tons of low right english to throw the ob. SHOULD both methods give the same result in terms of how far the cue ball drifts to the right?

In working on this shot, I find that I can make the cue ball drift sideways only about 1 ball width when throwing, whereas with just center draw I get about 2 ball widths. I'm trying to cheat the pocket the same each time and make sure I'm only comparing the best results of each method.

So will a "stun throw" shot cause less cb drift than a simple stun shot, or are my results incorrect?

Thanks!

The biggest throw effect is stun and 1/2 tip of english for a diamond or two distance between OB and CB less thank 40 degree angles, if you far from OB you need more english to last to the OB, if you do not want to hit very hard to ensure stun, then you must judge how low to hit with soft follow through to ensure stun at contact point. In my opinion if CB hit an OB while spinning backward there will be not much spin induced throw toward pocket, you will only cancel the cut induce throw, but because it is draw shot, CB will curve giving the impression it is spin induced throw.

 

[Dan White]

The biggest throw effect is stun and 1/2 tip of english ...

OK, you've covered ob throw, but what is the cue ball doing? Does maximum ob throw also cause maximum cue ball drift in the opposite direction? In short, can you manipulate cb movement with english, or is it only possible to manipulate ob direction with english?

 

[pdcue]

OK, you've covered ob throw, but what is the cue ball doing? Does maximum ob throw also cause maximum cue ball drift in the opposite direction? In short, can you manipulate cb movement with english, or is it only possible to manipulate ob direction with english?

Hi Dan.

I'm not a physicist, but I've been using this technique for decades.

The short answer is...yes. You can indeed reduce CB movement by
hitting the Ob fuller and 'twisting' it in with sidespin.

Long before I had ever heard of stun, we called it 'killing' the cue ball.

Dale

 

[naji]

OK, you've covered ob throw, but what is the cue ball doing? Does maximum ob throw also cause maximum cue ball drift in the opposite direction? In short, can you manipulate cb movement with english, or is it only possible to manipulate ob direction with english?

OK good question, sorry i miss interpreted it at first. When trying almost straight in shot with OB near spot at other end of table, i shot straight with side english stun, CB drifted about 1-2" at 90 degree direction depending on speed. My balls are a bit dirty, cleaned balls, got less throw and less drift! direction will not change, unless you have slight top or very slight draw

 

[Shaky1]

Hi Dan.

I'm not a physicist, but I've been using this technique for decades.

The short answer is...yes. You can indeed reduce CB movement by
hitting the Ob fuller and 'twisting' it in with sidespin.

Long before I had ever heard of stun, we called it 'killing' the cue ball.

Dale

Tap Tap Tap.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

OK, you've covered ob throw, but what is the cue ball doing? Does maximum ob throw also cause maximum cue ball drift in the opposite direction? In short, can you manipulate cb movement with english, or is it only possible to manipulate ob direction with english?

Dan, I'm not a scientist either but from all I've read, english has very little if any effect on the path the cue ball will take after contact. The object ball is subject to throw, but not the cue ball. Draw and follow will have an effect, yes; but left and right english will not have any significant effect on the tangent line the cue ball takes. So I'd say the answer is yes, you can cut the shot fuller, throwing it with spin, and therefore reduce the length the CB drifts. It will also drift on a different line than if cut thinner with no spin, of course.

Hopefully Dr. Dave will come along to confirm this.

 

[Cornerman]

So will a "stun throw" shot cause less cb drift than a simple stun shot, or are my results incorrect?

Thanks!

As I've learned over the years, throw isn't nearly as much as what people say or think it is on good equipment. It never has been and it won't be tonight. And knowing you Dan as well as most players who are insane enough to spend time on a forum, you play on decent equipment.

If you do actually throw the ball to the left, something has to get the opposite reaction. Yes, I suppose it could be the table and earth, but the cueball will generally get it.

Freddie

 

[AtLarge]

... In working on this shot, I find that I can make the cue ball drift sideways only about 1 ball width when throwing, whereas with just center draw I get about 2 ball widths. ...

If you can get the same results repeatedly, why do you question whether it is possible?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I know this has been gone over in the past, but I'm kind of refining short position control with the cue ball and thought I'd see if one of the physicists can confirm my suspicions.

In short, is it possible to reduce how much the cb drifts sideways by aiming more full on the ob and using english to throw? Let's say I have an ob about 12 inches from the cb and the ob is lined up about half a diamond to the right of a corner pocket. When I cut the ob to the left in order to pocket the ball, I want to hold the cue ball from drifting as much as possible to the right. I can shoot two ways (assume with stun): 1, just hit low and soft with no english, or 2, aim full at the ob with tons of low right english to throw the ob. SHOULD both methods give the same result in terms of how far the cue ball drifts to the right?

In working on this shot, I find that I can make the cue ball drift sideways only about 1 ball width when throwing, whereas with just center draw I get about 2 ball widths. I'm trying to cheat the pocket the same each time and make sure I'm only comparing the best results of each method.

So will a "stun throw" shot cause less cb drift than a simple stun shot, or are my results incorrect?

Thanks!

The effectiveness of throwing versus cutting for nearly full shots to keep the cue ball from moving sideways depends a lot on the distance between the balls. In this test -- http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif -- you can actually cut the object ball to the left and get the cue ball to move to the left but only for close shots.

 

[bbb]

havent read the other responces:embarrassed2::embarrassed2:
the fuller the hit the cue ball goes off the tangent line less all things being equal
so if you can get a full hit and use x tipps of english the cue ball will move less
same idea on why you dont want to get straight in on a shot
difficult to move the cue ball
my 2 cents
i hope im right
im sure you will tell me if im not

 

[RBC]

It's not very scientific, but I've always felt that the cue ball would end up in about the same place if I hit it full and throw it in verses cutting it in at the same speed.

However, I also feel I can "pinch" the cue ball just a little by going ahead and cutting the object ball, but have just enough draw on the cue ball so that when it leaves the object ball it has enough spin to last about a second. Far less than one revolution. What this seems to do for me is to kill the cue ball momentum along the tangent line. It may come back slightly, but it won't go down the tangent line as far and will "hold up".

At least that's the way it seems to be in my head.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Dan White]

The effectiveness of throwing versus cutting for nearly full shots to keep the cue ball from moving sideways depends a lot on the distance between the balls.

I also wonder about the practical utility of minimizing cue ball drift if possible. I'm using a ton of low outside english to hold the cue ball by MAYBE one ball diameter. It makes pocketing the ball more difficult so I'm not sure I'd take the shot in a game situation.

 

[Dan White]

If you do actually throw the ball to the left, something has to get the opposite reaction. Yes, I suppose it could be the table and earth, but the cueball will generally get it.

Freddie

Hiya Fred. I've always figured this, too, but then other things happen at the same time that make me unsure. The ob gets thrown to the left with natural roll while the cb gets thrown to the right with stun or a little draw. I thought maybe that would help scrub lateral motion off the cue ball as RBC mentioned... well, you never know.

 

[Dan White]

If you can get the same results repeatedly, why do you question whether it is possible?

Well, I could be kidding myself. If I cheat the pocket a little more or less it changes where the cue balls goes. I hit this shot enough times that it appeared that I could hold the cue ball better with extreme spin. I just wanted to know if the physics said that I should be getting this result. I always thought ob throw to the left causes equal cb throw to the right, but then there are other factors that could come into play, so I thought I'd ask.

 

[Jal]

....
So will a "stun throw" shot cause less cb drift than a simple stun shot, or are my results incorrect?

Dan,

Here are some calculations regarding CB travel distance given 3 and 5 degrees of throw, respectively, achieved with outside english. Stun is assumed. Impact angles are used instead of cut angles, since the goal is to drive the OB in some fixed direction relative to the line of centers between the resting CB and OB. (Geometric cut angles vary depending on the amount of throw.)

The range of impact angles are limited to 5 -15 degrees, because in this range the amount of OB throw in the case of zero english can be predicted fairly reliably for normal balls, i.e., not overly slick. (It can be predicted reliably for 0 - 5 degrees too, but there is so little CB movement, it was omitted.)

For a fair comparison of the travel distances D1 and D2, the CB's speed was adjusted such that the OB's speed is the same (along with its post-impact direction) with and without the outside english.

The shot geometry is as follows:



Of course, the amount of throw, and thus the difference in the tangent line directions, is greatly exaggerated in the above diagram for clarity.







The results suggest that the balls have to be well within 12" of each other before you start seeing reductions of as much as 50% or so. But note that it does seem to be approaching 50% at 12" with 5 degrees of throw at some impact angle less than 5 degrees. The technique works, but as Cornerman (Fred) indicated, maybe not as well as one might surmise.

Jim

 

[Luxury]

I have slow rolled with outside English into the side pocket 1000 balls at least.

It saves me from having to go multiple rails to get shape.

Throwing the ball in you can hit way fuller and it holds the cue ball.

However I have been using three or nine o'clock cuz I was taught the spin lasts longer than it would with low left or low right.

Could I hold the cue ball better with low outside?

 

[sparkle84]

Hitting the ball fuller & throwing it in with english most definitely results in less sideways movement. Good straight pool players do it all
the time to minimize CB movement. If you haven't been doing it you need to start. The physics of what happens in certain pool conditions, while maybe interesting to some & nice to know, it isn't all that important to playing better pool. Knowing that something works & using it to your advantage is what counts.

"I also wonder about the practical utility of minimizing cue ball drift if possible. I'm using a ton of low outside english to hold the cue ball by MAYBE one ball diameter. It makes pocketing the ball more difficult so I'm not sure I'd take the shot in a game situation."

I put that up because even though this is the main forum I know you're a straight pool guy & in 14.1 one ball diameter is huge at times. For that matter sometimes a 1/4" is huge. Someone mentioned it's most effective at short distances & they'd be right. And you won't miss as much. But like everything else in pool , the more you do it the easier it becomes & you can increase the distance &/or shot difficulty. It's a very valuable tool to have in your arsenal if you want to play good 14.1. Particularly effective when working in tight areas of an open but congested rack.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I know this has been gone over in the past, but I'm kind of refining short position control with the cue ball and thought I'd see if one of the physicists can confirm my suspicions.

In short, is it possible to reduce how much the cb drifts sideways by aiming more full on the ob and using english to throw? Let's say I have an ob about 12 inches from the cb and the ob is lined up about half a diamond to the right of a corner pocket. When I cut the ob to the left in order to pocket the ball, I want to hold the cue ball from drifting as much as possible to the right. I can shoot two ways (assume with stun): 1, just hit low and soft with no english, or 2, aim full at the ob with tons of low right english to throw the ob. SHOULD both methods give the same result in terms of how far the cue ball drifts to the right?

In working on this shot, I find that I can make the cue ball drift sideways only about 1 ball width when throwing, whereas with just center draw I get about 2 ball widths. I'm trying to cheat the pocket the same each time and make sure I'm only comparing the best results of each method.

So will a "stun throw" shot cause less cb drift than a simple stun shot, or are my results incorrect?

Thanks!

elevate your bridge a couple inches, make the same stroke and see the difference....using a masse' stroke you can move the cue ball in either direction after contact...

 

[dr_dave]

The effectiveness of throwing versus cutting for nearly full shots to keep the cue ball from moving sideways depends a lot on the distance between the balls. In this test -- http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif -- you can actually cut the object ball to the left and get the cue ball to move to the left but only for close shots.

That says it all, but if people out there want or need proof or more info on this topic, see:

using throw to hold or kill the CB​

Regards,
Dave