What happened to the old cue gallery

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

I kinda agree with Steve and had anticipated these type of feelings from regs on Cue & Case. When I wrote that letter to get a Cue Maker's Showcase gallery on AZ I felt that after the new cue sales ban on "Wanted For Sale" that is would be a natural fit for the form. I was also concerned about our impact on the regulars and felt we (CMs) might be seen as invaders. What we see today is an evolution and progression from the ban that AZ put on the Wanted For Sale and legal issues that are now resolved.

Here is my open letter, I think that someone else should take the ball and contact AZ with a suggestion from a persecutive of a Cue and Case old timer and give them this link for some history of a prior request and push for the CMs Showcase Gallery without pricing in the rules. Or someone start a poll about who would be in favor of a Gallery like this. After polling, let the powers that be see this demographic. Power in numbers!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=260157

If we as a group give our input collectively we can change this culture, it is not a hard thing to do if we work together. I for one would love a cue maker's gallery but if it existed, I would still attend and comment in the Cue and Case Gallery as a spectator and lover of cues but not as a cue maker, that simple. I am also sure that it would be visa versa with C&C regs. A Win Win situation.

I am a relatively new CM and have only been building since 2004 and repair guy since 01. The only thing is that I am not so young and at 57 years old, I hope I can get at least 25 years in before I call it quits or take my dirt nap as it is my goal to be a Hall of Fammer someday but that will take a long time and effort. :duck: I love cue making and I have gone over the waterfall concerning this addiction and there no turning back.:help:

As I have said on AZ a few times, cue making is like basket weaving in a nut house only dustier.:joyful:

Rick Geschrey

 

[cutter]

I for one have no problem with the new guys posting. What has turned me off is the shameless self promoting side of it. If you want to post a cue, post it. Don't write a half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades. Now, if it's the owner, that's a different. They can call it as they see it. The term cuemaker has become so diluted it no longer holds any real meaning.

 

[tikkler]

hey

Isn't that exactly what they are doing?

The only difference is that in the old days there wasn't an audience for the process simply because there was no internet. They are still doing the same thing...just with an audience.

Who is to say that Rambow, Spain, Balabushka, or Martin wouldn't have been on AZB posting pics had such a thing been possible?

Personally, I am not just interested in seeing stuff from "established" cue makers. After all, if that is all we saw, how would we have any real perspective on the work? In addition, the entire process of the evolution of the cue maker is inherently interesting to a lot of people.

I read these forums for years before I signed up. I used them for research about cues. But most of what I know about cues I learned long before I found these forums. Regardless of that I am now provided a window into the construction of the cues I love so much, even when I cannot afford them. I have set foot in only one cue makers shop, that was Paul Mottey's shop, but these forums allow me a virtual visit almost daily into the shops of many others. We get to see not only the end product but the actual process. More than that we get to express an opinion smetimes about how a cue might be completed because a maker will ask what we think.

There are both positives and negatives to the evolution of this particular forum, the gallery, and I prefer to concentrate on the positives. As much as the dealers and collectors sometimes seem to have so much "authority", the fact is that it is the cue maker that is at the center of all of this. If the cue makers see fit to open their work to this forum then I say "thank you" for the opportunity to peek.

Your own contributions here are extremely valuable. We get to see things that otherwise would be far beyond the scope of our view. But that is exactly what is afforded us when the cue makers contribute here and I feel the value is no less.

It is my great hope that you would continue to post pictures and stories of your cues. It is also my great hope that not a single cue maker would ever feel pushed aside in favor of a dealer or collector in this forum or anywhere else for that matter. I support the cue makers first, no matter their level of skill or experience because the rest of us, no matter how many cues we own, or how expensive they might be, or how great our buying power might be, are merely the audience.

Cue makers in general are not getting rich engaging in their craft. If participating in the gallery helps them get their next order and I get to see another cue here then I say "bravo" and "thank you". Why should the fact that one made or is making a cue exclude one from a gallery? In fact, if one goes to an art gallery, is not the art for sale?

Lastly, you have a lot of cues you can show off. You know we all dig it and go ape-shit over the beautiful cues you have. This particular thread contains no cue pictures, yet is posted in the gallery. How about including a pic in this thread? Just one? You know that your collection is among the most popular things among those who love cues...we always want to see more....can't get enough of it....almost need it like air....

I for one, because I put myself deeply in debt educating myself and taking care of my family, will probably never be able to afford a single cue of the caliber of any cue you have. So please, show off, show more.....:smile:

I love looking at cues.......period.......I love seeing cues being made......I just flat out love seeing anything about cues...................

But it seems that this for sale being made phase has chased away a lot of the heres my new cue people.....am I wrong on this

 

[Paul Dayton]

I for one have no problem with the new guys posting. What has turned me off is the shameless self promoting side of it. If you want to post a cue, post it. Don't write a half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades. Now, if it's the owner, that's a different. They can call it as they see it. The term cuemaker has become so diluted it no longer holds any real meaning.

Steve is right. Everybody is a cuemaker even if last week they were something else. There are no more hobbyists. It used to take 10 years not 2 months and people would pick up and try your cues. Today you just post a picture and someone no one knows extolls its virtues and unbelievable playability.

 

[tikkler]

hey

i for one see no problem with cuemakers posting pics of cues in progress, whether they be new cuemakers or the more established cuemakers.

i assume when you say established cuemakers that you are talking about black boar, gina cue etc, etc. the internet did not exsist or at the least was in its infancy when such cuemakers started making cues. for that matter niether was this forum.

i do understand your viewpoint but i think you are discrediting a lot of new cuemakers craftsmanship by lumping them all in the category such as you described in your 1st sentence.

btw i am curious about your last sentence. as for these newer or shall i say less established cuemakers, what do you think is an appropriate time frame that they toil in their shops before being allowed to showcase their products in the same forum with the more established cuemakers?

they should be allowed to showcase their products at any time. I love seeing pics of cues ...anybodys cues. But I hope this doesnt chase off everyone showing there new acquisitions, as it seems like it has

my post wasnt meant to be ANTI newbie, it was meant to be....WHAT HAPPENED TO EVERYONE ELSE

 

[Chopdoc]

I love looking at cues.......period.......I love seeing cues being made......I just flat out love seeing anything about cues...................

But it seems that this for sale being made phase has chased away a lot of the heres my new cue people.....am I wrong on this

Chased away?

I think it might be more of a dilution effect than actually chasing away. Of course, you could be right, or it could be a combination.

 

[tikkler]

hey

I for one have no problem with the new guys posting. What has turned me off is the shameless self promoting side of it. If you want to post a cue, post it. Don't write a half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades. Now, if it's the owner, that's a different. They can call it as they see it. The term cuemaker has become so diluted it no longer holds any real meaning.

Steve, you summed up my feelings exactly...thank you. next time I have an urge to post can i call you first????? lol

 

[scdiveteam]

I for one have no problem with the new guys posting. What has turned me off is the shameless self promoting side of it. If you want to post a cue, post it. Don't write a half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades. Now, if it's the owner, that's a different. They can call it as they see it. The term cuemaker has become so diluted it no longer holds any real meaning.

Steve,

Sounds like you got some pent up emotions there. Allow me to be the bubble popper. If you want to throw stones be aware that some people can throw rocks back. Your post reveals a lot to me and I am sure many others are passing judgement in their own minds about the both us now.

Self promoting being shameless is an oxymoron. Promoting oneself is the only path to success and it not limited to monetary gain as an absolute motivation. If that is the way you see it, fine but there are always other circumstances who need to consider if one is to be honest and circumspect.

In your reference to "half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades" I will go out on a limb and guess that you are referring to me. If not, please excuse me.

I do not place cues in the galley that I wish to sell or that are for sale. They are either already pre sold or they are heading for a collection ie. my art cues.

Just because you are some type of voting member of some collective self promoting cue makers group gives you no authority to come off as some type of elder in a church hierarchy.

I don't know if you have a job our do cue making full time, but I am a full time cue maker burning 70 or 80 hours a week in my shop because I have chosen this endeavor. I am of the opinion that any cue maker who has a regular job is a part time practitioner and is not a true professional who is walking on the high wire full speed ahead without the net. If you are full time pro I sure you will agree, if not ..............

I am a multiple published author and I love to write and I enjoy it, I write the 1/2 page explanations of my processes because that's me and I can not help myself and like detailed communications. Sorry. I also like to give potential customers who may want to buy my cues an insight into my procedures and practices. If this upsets you, ignore me and my posts. No one in bending anyone's arm here.

There are many people on AZ who let me know on a daily basis that they like what I do and my "shameless self promoting behavior". You obviously are not in that group and I don't care one iota but when attacked, I will always defend myself and explain my motivations when they are misrepresented by anyone who dares to think they can read my mind and translates them to others in a public forum.

I am an objectivist in my philosophy and the way I lead my life is under a credo that one who promotes themselves is of the higher end of the food chain and those who are not, are subservient to a group as a whole. The law of the jungle is about survival in the most basic sense in life or death.

Oh by the way, don't ever think that I would let myself get into a situation whereby your vote would ever be a factor in my life. Let me cross off your CM association from a short list that I may consider.

If I was a boss in that group I would dismiss you for failing to see the bigger picture of recruitment in lieu of you personal feelings in a public area. Now go ahead and wear you voting member's badge as a signature and I will wear my badge as an independent person who promotes my own story.

JMO,

Rick Geschrey

 

[Chopdoc]

Steve is right. Everybody is a cuemaker even if last week they were something else. There are no more hobbyists. It used to take 10 years not 2 months and people would pick up and try your cues. Today you just post a picture and someone no one knows extolls its virtues and unbelievable playability.

The internet certainly has accelerated things in some ways.

But I am not sure the perspective you express is strictly correct.

There was a cue maker that posted here that was seen as a "noob". He had already been making cues for ten years, developed his own methods, and had been making his living at selling cues. My point is that he was not a noob at cue making, just new here.


Let's take an example from the past. Somebody that had zero experience making cues, no videos, no apprenticeship, no internet. A Hall of Fame cue maker that did just decide to start making cues with a partner. Went out and got a loan to buy the equipment, rented some space, and just started making cues.

Just like that....done. And people bought them. Not 10 years later. And those early cues are still, more than 40 years later, considered great players.


And thus was born a leader in the industry, both as an individual and as a company. A company that people suspiciously ask "are they importing cues?" when in fact they are EXPORTING to Asia. How many American companies successfully do that?

I am speaking of course of Dan Janes and JOSS.


More than that, two other extremely famous and highly regarded cue makers started in that shop. Stroud and Scruggs just decided to start making cues...and did it. And people bought them. Not 10 years later.

I don't mean to minimize or oversimplify the monstrous task these gentleman faced in starting out or to make it seem too easy, but the fact is that they did it like that.

.

 

[cutter]

Steve,

Sounds like you got some pent up emotions there. Allow me to be the bubble popper. If you want to throw stones be aware that some people can throw rocks back. Your post reveals a lot to me and I am sure many others are passing judgement in their own minds about the both us now.

Self promoting being shameless is an oxymoron. Promoting oneself is the only path to success and it not limited to monetary gain as an absolute motivation. If that is the way you see it, fine but there are always other circumstances who need to consider if one is to be honest and circumspect.

In your reference to "half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades" I will go out on a limb and guess that you are referring to me. If not, please excuse me.

I do not place cues in the galley that I wish to sell or that are for sale. They are either already pre sold or they are heading for a collection ie. my art cues.

Just because you are some type of voting member of some collective self promoting cue makers group gives you no authority to come off as some type of elder in a church hierarchy.

I don't know if you have a job our do cue making full time, but I am a full time cue maker burning 70 or 80 hours a week in my shop because I have chosen this endeavor. I am of the opinion that any cue maker who has a regular job is a part time practitioner and is not a true professional who is walking on the high wire full speed ahead without the net. If you are full time pro I sure you will agree, if not ..............

I am a multiple published author and I love to write and I enjoy it, I write the 1/2 page explanations of my processes because that's me and I can not help myself and like detailed communications. Sorry. I also like to give potential customers who may want to buy my cues an insight into my procedures and practices. If this upsets you, ignore me and my posts. No one in bending anyone's arm here.

There are many people on AZ who let me know on a daily basis that they like what I do and my "shameless self promoting behavior". You obviously are not in that group and I don't care one iota but when attacked, I will always defend myself and explain my motivations when they are misrepresented by anyone who dares to think they can read my mind and translates them to others in a public forum.

I am an objectivist in my philosophy and the way I lead my life is under a credo that one who promotes themselves is of the higher end of the food chain and those who are not, are subservient to a group as a whole. The law of the jungle is about survival in the most basic sense in life or death.

Oh by the way, don't ever think that I would let myself get into a situation whereby your vote would ever be a factor in my life. Let me cross off your CM association from a short list that I may consider.

If I was a boss in that group I would dismiss you for failing to see the bigger picture of recruitment in lieu of you personal feelings in a public area. Now go ahead and wear you voting member's badge as a signature and I will wear my badge as an independent person who promotes my own story.

JMO,

Rick Geschrey

NO RICK, It was not a shot at you. I may not agree to some of your techniques, but you do your thing in "ask the cuemaker" and never say it's the best or only way to do it. It's your way, and you developed it and have every right to explain why you do it. And I have every right to point out with what I disagree . But per chance I hit a nerve.
Oh by the way, it's not my orginization. And I am proud to be a full time cuemaker who has earned the right to wear it.
You become established by your work, not your words. So get back to work!

 

[mia]

I think the internet and, more specifically AZ Billiards, has grown so rapidly that over the course of 10-15 years we've seen a vast number of new cuemakers, some of which are legends in the making! Others are, well Eddie Wheat. I'm the furthest thing from an expert on the subject matter of cues but I think that the market itself is evolving due to the presence of the internet... just like every other industry is. As a result, you'll see a number of cues skyrocket in value, drop off in value, and ultimately level off, thus establishing a more realistic market value. In some cases, we're starting to see this happening now.

I think Chopdoc is right. Who is to say that had the web been around 40 years ago, Gus wouldn't be posting pics of his cues?

The real issue here isn't the newbie cuemakers. More power to them! Some of these 'noobs' have a great deal of talent and make amazing cues! Without the internet and AZ Billiards, we might not know who a lot of these guys are and we'd be missing out. So again, more power to 'em! The real issue here though is, as tikkler said... the cuemakers who post progress pics or even pics of completed cues in a GALLERY and outright admit that it "will be available soon". While there may not technically be anything wrong with it per se, it seems clear that the purpose is the get exposure for themselves.

 

[scdiveteam]

NO RICK, It was not a shot at you. I may not agree to some of your techniques, but you do your thing in "ask the cuemaker" and never say it's the best or only way to do it. It's your way, and you developed it and have every right to explain why you do it. And I have every right to point out with what I disagree . But per chance I hit a nerve.
Oh by the way, it's not my orginization. And I am proud to be a full time cuemaker who has earned the right to wear it.
You become established by your work, not your words. So get back to work!

Steve,

So I guess I am just part of a group of people who likes to post self promoting and shameless 1/2 page ads? Not the singular target of your name calling.

This was never about techniques, I noticed how you changed that subject.

When ever I say something I wish I could retract in the forum or it is perceived that I have offended someone else, I have found that saying I am sorry has always worked for me when I was dead wrong.

You are doubtless a good guy who was quick to the draw with the keyboard this morning as was speaking his mind. However, there are consequences to one's actions that if left unchallenged that can have negative effects on one's name or brand. My rebuttal to your post was not an offensive surge at you but was a defensive shield to words. There is a big difference between people, their words and their intentions.

I accept your notion that your words were generalized and I was not the point of an attack towards myself or my brand..

It's all good,

JMO,

Rick

 

[cutter]

old cue

No Rick, it's not all good nor will it ever be. I talked about techniques in another part of the forum. You attacked an organization that promotes cues. And you attacked me directly by name. So go glue you hands to your ass. Don't use your 5 minute epoxy, they won't stick.

Time for another walk about. Bye Bye

 

[cueman]

Hi,

Early this year I wrote an open letter to Mr. Wilson asking AZ to have a Cue Maker's gallery and he said post cues on this forum:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=260157

I don't know why they don't have one??????

Rick

There actually is a place specifically for AZ cuemakers to post pictures of their work and yet it is rarely used. It is a sticky at the top of this forum. I rarely post anything I built in the main part of the forum, but I have posted several cues in that sticky thread.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=73064
Sticky: Az Members who build their own cues please post photo's of your new and old work!!!!

 

[qbilder]

I for one have no problem with the new guys posting. What has turned me off is the shameless self promoting side of it. If you want to post a cue, post it. Don't write a half page ad trying to sell it with made up accolades. Now, if it's the owner, that's a different. They can call it as they see it. The term cuemaker has become so diluted it no longer holds any real meaning.

Don't go thinking you can speak truth or logic around here. People just won't have it. Next thing you know, you'll be arrogant, stupid, narrow minded, or whatever else needs to be said in attempt to make you look bad for saying it the way it is. A few of these newer "cue makers" like filling people's heads with BS fluff instead of concrete fact. And heaven forbid you ever call one out for it, you'll be demonized. Who do you think you are, being a veteran cue maker with years of experience, trying to set an example by calling it straight? You should know better than that.

 

[scdiveteam]

Don't go thinking you can speak truth or logic around here. People just won't have it. Next thing you know, you'll be arrogant, stupid, narrow minded, or whatever else needs to be said in attempt to make you look bad for saying it the way it is. A few of these newer "cue makers" like filling people's heads with BS fluff instead of concrete fact. And heaven forbid you ever call one out for it, you'll be demonized. Who do you think you are, being a veteran cue maker with years of experience, trying to set an example by calling it straight? You should know better than that.

Veteran Cue Makers don't act like the guy in this post did. Before you are a veteran that invokes respect you must be a person who deserves respect.

A very interesting and revealing read, 26 pages of posting. I don't think anyone who would read these posts would not recognize what arrogant, stupid, narrow minded, or whatever else is:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=259331&page=26

 

[scdiveteam]

No Rick, it's not all good nor will it ever be. I talked about techniques in another part of the forum. You attacked an organization that promotes cues. And you attacked me directly by name. So go glue you hands to your ass. Don't use your 5 minute epoxy, they won't stick.

Time for another walk about. Bye Bye

Steve,

Have it your way.

If I was the head of your CM organization whereby a voting member lets is mouth vomit off crap like you posted attacking and baring false witness, you would not be a voting member any more. Trade organizations are about recruiting new members especiall at a time like this when there is a high degree of attrition. You sir failed at the prime directive because of you own Super Ego. Good Job, your management material.

When you refer to other people as shameless and self promoting you are going over a line IMO because you assume to understand someone else's thoughts. Bad habit and bad logic especially after you miss the point all together.

You not only offend me and any other would be 1/2 page self promoters here but you then lied to me saying that you were not referring to me.

Grow up. What is very funny, I made a gesture to take your crap and forgive and forget and like a little baby you saw that as a way to go on the offensive and then change the subject about what epoxy I use. I guess you won!! FYI, I never ever told anyone or criticized anyone about epoxy in any way. It must really erk you that someone does something in way that does not fit in your program. Let the work speak for it own is a mantra that I always say also and is the only thing that was meaningful in any of you posts today.

And Like Forrest Gump, "Thats All I have to say about that".

Rick

 

[desi2960]

not every cue that i have for sale

but on occasion when i get excited about something new i am trying, i will post photos of the cue. samples the bamboo ferrule, the bamboo butt, the one piece snakewood butt, fade to black those are things you will not see everyday and i want to share them with the azb comunity.
if you want me to quit posting photos of what i think is something very new, just ask me i'll quit.

chuck starkey

 

[tikkler]

hey

I am a cue collector.......I have been doing it for many years.......I have been to many different cuemakers shops.........I have spent way too much time around cues............but i am the first to admit that

I REALLY DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT WHAT GOES INTO BUILDING A CUE

But what I do know is BS. Like when a lot of the new posts talk about there incredible playing cues as attested by a top player....lol it just goes on and on. Or about my 2nd butterfly attempt, came out amazing, and by the way its for sale.............

Am I saying this is everyone...NO is it meant to hurt any newbie...NO

Again I ask, did it chase all the old timers and cue and case posters away?
Because it sure is different around here

 

[lenoxmjs]

but on occasion when i get excited about something new i am trying, i will post photos of the cue. samples the bamboo ferrule, the bamboo butt, the one piece snakewood butt, fade to black those are things you will not see everyday and i want to share them with the azb comunity.
if you want me to quit posting photos of what i think is something very new, just ask me i'll quit.

chuck starkey

I always enjoy your stuff . I especially liked the one with Bamboo . Very Interesting.