I didn't realize that. I just assumed that the handle also had some sort of finish (ends and surface)...
I paid $2500 southwest cue that is warped !
- Thread starter justabrake
- Start date
I didn't realize that. I just assumed that the handle also had some sort of finish (ends and surface)...
There are ways to make wood impervious to warpage. None of those ways is considered truly desirable to having a cue that has a truly wonderful "hit".
But beyond that I am also skeptical of wood moving significantly in a well played cue just because it travels from one side of the earth to the other.
Once upon a time I was a cue dealer and I had up to 50k in cues in my car, summer, winter, fall, rain, snow, desert heat, etc.... I had them in the back of uhauls and ryder trucks driving across America for weeks and months at a time.
Some cues would develop issues and some would never have any issues. To me that all came down to how they were made. Not going to name names but some cues just don't travel well while others do just fine. It's my opinion though that a cue which is well broken in with lots of play in it is less likely to warp through travel/climate issues than a brand new one.
My personal cues live in the car. They don't get special treatment or handling. To date I can't remember ever having a problem with my cues due to this practice. Then again I am not super particular about warpage either and don't check them every day.
1. Why i want bank wired transfer instead of paypal? Because im in asia, and asian paypal cant send the balance of the money in our paypal account to our bank account.
2. Escrow? Steven i never refused you for using an escrow, but you never ask me to.
3. Many ppl asked me about if the cue is straight or not. I told em it is straight, but have wobble on the forearm, i remember of Dan aka Tommnyqs sorry if i spell the nickname wrong, he ask me about it, and i reply the same way.
4. About the warped, im sure it was ok right before i put her in the case and shipped it, and it was strange because it stays inbound in custom for -+ 7 days.
5. I never mention about if theres any return policies on my thread, because im sure i sell the things exactly as i stated in the thread.
2. Escrow? Steven i never refused you for using an escrow, but you never ask me to.
3. Many ppl asked me about if the cue is straight or not. I told em it is straight, but have wobble on the forearm, i remember of Dan aka Tommnyqs sorry if i spell the nickname wrong, he ask me about it, and i reply the same way.
4. About the warped, im sure it was ok right before i put her in the case and shipped it, and it was strange because it stays inbound in custom for -+ 7 days.
5. I never mention about if theres any return policies on my thread, because im sure i sell the things exactly as i stated in the thread.
He's unhappy with the condition...
Refund him money minus shipping and he'll send back the cue on his dime for shipping.
Sell it to someone who's well aware of this wobble beforehand next time?
Here is a suggestion for the forum. What if we had a panel of folks who could arbitrate disputes like this and both parties agree to the decision of the panel. Seems like we have seen some lousy disputes between respected parties more often these days.
What if you had three people who agreed to look at the situation from both side and render a decision instead of making it public? Not sure on all the details but it's just a suggestion.
What if you had three people who agreed to look at the situation from both side and render a decision instead of making it public? Not sure on all the details but it's just a suggestion.
Actually my best friend was a friend of Wilson, and month ago he tell me about the SW cue, he already test it and and he said that the cue is straight together and apart. But I'm run out of gas, so I can't buy it. From my point this maybe the shipping or maybe the humidity (but I doubt because SW reputation). Maybe both of you can make a win-win situation for this problem. Hope there's a solution for both of you.
Wood can move. I believe it's due mainly to big climate (humidity) change between originating and destination regions.
I lived in California and now live in Singapore. I was very worried about bringing some cues here .. and few have moved and most have not. Some cue finish have taken a beating, most likely due to wood swelling a bit .. which I assume is due to high humidity here. I'm not an expert on the subject, though.
I know at least one cue maker who decided to stop selling to this region 'cause of wood movement that was beyond his control.
In the past, when I was in Cali, I have bought cues from this region that came with problems like I've seen on my own cues where finishes were off (can be felt, rings lifted).
I owned a cue that was built in southern California, was slightly warped in Singapore and then returned to southern California, it became straight. So I guess wood can change her mind with time .. biatch!!!
Having said all this non-sense, only thing that matter is that deal isn't done until both parties are satisfied. If not, unwind the deal with both parties sharing additional expenses. That's how I roll ...
I lived in California and now live in Singapore. I was very worried about bringing some cues here .. and few have moved and most have not. Some cue finish have taken a beating, most likely due to wood swelling a bit .. which I assume is due to high humidity here. I'm not an expert on the subject, though.
I know at least one cue maker who decided to stop selling to this region 'cause of wood movement that was beyond his control.
In the past, when I was in Cali, I have bought cues from this region that came with problems like I've seen on my own cues where finishes were off (can be felt, rings lifted).
I owned a cue that was built in southern California, was slightly warped in Singapore and then returned to southern California, it became straight. So I guess wood can change her mind with time .. biatch!!!
Having said all this non-sense, only thing that matter is that deal isn't done until both parties are satisfied. If not, unwind the deal with both parties sharing additional expenses. That's how I roll ...
Guess what here is your independent arbitrator:
My experience is from being in a family that has owned a sawmill for 75 years. We supply a well known cue maker in N. MS with exotic woods.
THE BUYER IS NOT SATISFIED- he paid $2,500 & didn't get what he expected.
Seller: You make no mention of a warranty," bc everyone is always happy"- Well he isn't happy.
I ship MILLIONS of dollars of wood every year. You know what I do when a buyer isn't happy- I pick up my wood and bring it back.
I'm also very new to this forum & custom pool cues in general. If there isn't honor here WTF is this place?
I hope to see the seller take back his cue & since yall talk about a cue in a sealed container warping inside a week well then it'll be fine when it gets back home.
-REFUND/ SEND CUE BACK-
-If anyone ever deals with me -I'm a man of honor. I'm also not a man that takes being screwed lying down.
GL- but I have a ****ing bad taste in my mouth about his entire site.
My experience is from being in a family that has owned a sawmill for 75 years. We supply a well known cue maker in N. MS with exotic woods.
THE BUYER IS NOT SATISFIED- he paid $2,500 & didn't get what he expected.
Seller: You make no mention of a warranty," bc everyone is always happy"- Well he isn't happy.
I ship MILLIONS of dollars of wood every year. You know what I do when a buyer isn't happy- I pick up my wood and bring it back.
I'm also very new to this forum & custom pool cues in general. If there isn't honor here WTF is this place?
I hope to see the seller take back his cue & since yall talk about a cue in a sealed container warping inside a week well then it'll be fine when it gets back home.
-REFUND/ SEND CUE BACK-
-If anyone ever deals with me -I'm a man of honor. I'm also not a man that takes being screwed lying down.
GL- but I have a ****ing bad taste in my mouth about his entire site.
I am with you but you can't throw everyone under the bus here. You are in a commercial business as am I. We count on sales happening every day and live and die by our reputation. Many of the guys here are amateurs whose hobby is trading cues. To them shipping internationally is a big deal and costly. None of them wants to eat the cost due to unsatisfied customers. You and I chalk it up to "marketing" costs when we have to occasionally take a hit on the freight.
The whole thing with these particular cues is that NO ONE can agree what "straight" means because of the so-called compound taper.
Frankly I think that buyers and sellers in these cases should agree on a satisfaction policy and agree to share shipping both directions. That way if the deal is not good then they are equally out on the shipping. But it's not always cut and dried to hold amateurs to commercial standards.
The fact that so many don't use escrow is what leads to these disputes. Two amateurs doing business across the world has so many factors that can go wrong it's not even funny.
My friend in China was sold a Jensen from a user on this site. The cue never arrived. No money, the person (thief) who sold it is gone, no recourse for my friend. Why? Well because the deal was done with a "guy", not with a business, not with anyone who had any incentive to maintain a reputation.
IMO the issue here is not whether the cue is (or was) straight, but more that the buyer is not satisfied.. I personally would tell him to send it back and refund the money..No questions asked! A deal is never complete until both parties are satisfied..Period!
You are correct. I think if your going to spend $X,XXX+ on a wood stick & your not willing to make it right with both paying freight since you each decided to enter into an agreement 9,000 miles apart your not an AMATEUR your an A$$HOLE.
I don't pick my wood up if a customer is unhappy, because I'm chalking it up to marketing- it's because I'm not going to get #1 paid - #2 it's just going to be a problem -now if your trying to pass something back to me because your end customer changed their mind and you didn't get a deposit well there are sometimes I don't bring my wood back. The customer is NOT always correct.
Didn't mean to throw anyone under the bus. Countless replies never addressing the first issue. The customer/buyer isn't satisfied @ ALL.
Cheers,
LSB
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And here is exactly the problem.
1) Either the cue is straight or it's not. If it's not, then how much wobble is there? What's small to you might be large to me.
2) The lack of stating a return policy is not an excuse. If you don't accept returns, it is far better to state "as is". In fact, to me "as is" is the same as saying "buyer beware". Or, "buy it and it's your problem, not mine, even though I know what I'm selling and you haven't inspected it".
I believe you are honest. I also believe that your honesty is being tested by $2500 and it's not passing the test. (for those who may not know, this cue is about equal to the average annual income in Indonesia).
It ALWAYS hurts to have to go through all of this and have to accept a return and refund someone, but those of us who sell do it because we know how it feels to be on Steven's end.
Why don't you let Steven sell it here for you and cover any loss he takes? An Ebony SW with a small wobble in the handle should still be salable.
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Since I get paid in advance when I have an unhappy customer they get a replacement or a refund and I chalk the extra expense on my part up to marketing because that's exactly what it is when I spend money keeping customers happy.
I think many people addressed the "buyer is not happy" aspect of this before you commented. Doesn't look like you have been here long but there are many many good and honorable people here. Once in a while a dispute breaks out between two otherwise honorable folks.
When I sell anything, used or otherwise it's sold satisfaction guaranteed. That's the way I expect to buy things and it's the way I sell them. On a purely personal level this is the way I have always done my business with ONE exception.
That exception is when I sell something AS IS, no returns. When I advertise something this way then I go overboard disclosing everything about the item to insure that there are no surprises whatsoever.
You stated in the thread the cue was straight together and apart before you deleted It
I asked you also in a PM if they were as you said and you said they were straight together and apart again and now you admit it has a forearm warp
and you told previous interested buyers about it but didn't tell me
I did ask in the thread if you'd do escrow but Rigmaster and 9ballking stepped in and defended you as a good guy
a tough situation, however . . .
here is my two cents:
At the end of the day, if something is sold here and there is no clear statement that the item is being sold with "no returns" then the seller should be responsible to make the buyer happy, right up to and including unwinding the deal with a full refund. And to take it a step further, I feel that if the buyer received something other than what was described, that he should not have to pay for return shipping/insurance. Why should a buyer have to pay a hundred or two (I'm guesstimating) for something he's sending back that came in mis-described (or changed in transit)?
My sincere suggestion would be as follows:
Send this cue to Laurie at SW (no one else) for her opinion on the cues straightness. If she says it's straight (normal), congrats on your ebony sw. :thumbup:
If she says the cue is not straight then the seller must refund the buyer in full. What may or may not have happened in transit is in no way the buyers fault and it shouldn't cost him a nickel.
Tate has made a good suggestion that I will add to, if the cue is determined to be warped, the seller can put it up for sale, of course, accurately described, and send the proceeds of the sale to the seller in indonesia.
If this idea doesn't appeal to both parties, then just send it back for a full refund.
Look up to the "sticky" section here on wanted/for sale and study the one titled "Escrow, Escrow, Escrow".
How anyone could be so brave as to send thousands of 'NO RECOURSE' dollars via bank transfer to indonesia is beyond me.
I hope that you two respected az'ers will get this sorted out.
best,
brian kc
here is my two cents:
At the end of the day, if something is sold here and there is no clear statement that the item is being sold with "no returns" then the seller should be responsible to make the buyer happy, right up to and including unwinding the deal with a full refund. And to take it a step further, I feel that if the buyer received something other than what was described, that he should not have to pay for return shipping/insurance. Why should a buyer have to pay a hundred or two (I'm guesstimating) for something he's sending back that came in mis-described (or changed in transit)?
My sincere suggestion would be as follows:
Send this cue to Laurie at SW (no one else) for her opinion on the cues straightness. If she says it's straight (normal), congrats on your ebony sw. :thumbup:
If she says the cue is not straight then the seller must refund the buyer in full. What may or may not have happened in transit is in no way the buyers fault and it shouldn't cost him a nickel.
Tate has made a good suggestion that I will add to, if the cue is determined to be warped, the seller can put it up for sale, of course, accurately described, and send the proceeds of the sale to the seller in indonesia.
If this idea doesn't appeal to both parties, then just send it back for a full refund.
Look up to the "sticky" section here on wanted/for sale and study the one titled "Escrow, Escrow, Escrow".
How anyone could be so brave as to send thousands of 'NO RECOURSE' dollars via bank transfer to indonesia is beyond me.
I hope that you two respected az'ers will get this sorted out.
best,
brian kc
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In a selling situation like this, it's always better to underadvertise and overdeliver......i.e. very clearly describe (to the point of being overly critical) any wobble or issue with a cue to make the buyer fully aware. Then if it's not as bad as you have described, the buyer will be pleasantly surprised upon receipt.
I think JB or someone else touched on it. One person's definition of what's acceptable or "straight" can sometimes be quite different from one another. That's why it's so important to have a formal return policy or the buyer must know going into a deal that it's being sold as-is.
Hopefully you guys can work this out. Keep the lines of communication open....that would be my suggestion.
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To the seller: It is always best to have a policy that allows for a return/refund if the customer is not satisfied.
To the OP: It is possible for wood to "move" due to changes in humidity. Sometimes it moves back after a few days, sometimes it doesn't.
As for testing the cue for straightness, rolling it on a table won't give you a true reading on some SW cues. The best way to test for straightness, if you have a cuesmith with a good lathe in your area, is have the cuesmith/cuemaker put the cue in his lathe and spin it. Then, you will know for sure if it is straight and, more importantly, if it is not. He can also determine exactly where the warp is located. A warped handle is not too big an issue...a warped forearm is.
JMO,
Joe
To the OP: It is possible for wood to "move" due to changes in humidity. Sometimes it moves back after a few days, sometimes it doesn't.
As for testing the cue for straightness, rolling it on a table won't give you a true reading on some SW cues. The best way to test for straightness, if you have a cuesmith with a good lathe in your area, is have the cuesmith/cuemaker put the cue in his lathe and spin it. Then, you will know for sure if it is straight and, more importantly, if it is not. He can also determine exactly where the warp is located. A warped handle is not too big an issue...a warped forearm is.
JMO,
Joe
For what it's worth, I sent an unplayed McWorter cue to a very well respected guy here a few weeks back via 2 day FedEx. Cue was in an Engles case, bubble wrap around the case & in a triangle box.
Rolled the butt (& shafts) across my desk before I sent it to him & it looked straight as an arrow. Cue wasn't straight when he got it, even though the package had no damage. Got the cue back & he was right, it is obviously warped in the handle area (pretty easy to see).
I can only guess the warping was due to a change in humidity & temperature.
Rolled the butt (& shafts) across my desk before I sent it to him & it looked straight as an arrow. Cue wasn't straight when he got it, even though the package had no damage. Got the cue back & he was right, it is obviously warped in the handle area (pretty easy to see).
I can only guess the warping was due to a change in humidity & temperature.
The handle wood in a cue needs to be sealed just like the rest of the cue. If a cuemaker isn't sealing his handle wood he is asking for trouble...
Whether it is warped or not does not matter.
If it is warped, when it warped doesn't matter.
If its just parabolic taper the buyer is objecting to doesn't matter.
Discussions about who is right, who is wrong, who is too picky, who is not picky enough doesn't matter.
Only one fact matters:
The buyer bought and paid for the cue sight unseen. That has to mean that the deal is not complete until the buyer is satisfied. The burden of satisfying the buyer always lies with the seller, and, if the seller can't convince the buyer to be happy through repair or adjustment, it is the seller's responsibility to unwind the deal and give the buyer his money back.
Please forget who is right and get to doing what is right.
Thanks
Kevin
If it is warped, when it warped doesn't matter.
If its just parabolic taper the buyer is objecting to doesn't matter.
Discussions about who is right, who is wrong, who is too picky, who is not picky enough doesn't matter.
Only one fact matters:
The buyer bought and paid for the cue sight unseen. That has to mean that the deal is not complete until the buyer is satisfied. The burden of satisfying the buyer always lies with the seller, and, if the seller can't convince the buyer to be happy through repair or adjustment, it is the seller's responsibility to unwind the deal and give the buyer his money back.
Please forget who is right and get to doing what is right.
Thanks
Kevin