Noob question but I can't make a ball frozen to rail with inside bottom, why?

Unless you are spin-cutting a ball (hitting the rail first, then rolling into the ball with inside), or hitting the shot at a slow enough speed that the draw rubs off before the cueball gets to the object ball, there is almost never a practical payoff for using low-inside to cut a frozen ball down the rail. If you are hitting the shot hard enough to actually draw the cueball, and with enough inside to actually do something, the inside spin is working against you until it gets to the second rail. If there is even any spin left on the ball when it reaches the second rail, it can do some cool things for you (widening the angle off of the second cushion could be useful), but after you factor in the difficulty it adds to the shot and the unpredictability of the reaction (of both spin and speed) off of the first cushion, it becomes one of those shots that you can hit really, really good and still not get the effect you want. In short, the risk/reward is almost never there for it to be the right shot in a real game situation.

If you are into trick shots, though, the shot where you shoot the frozen ball in one bottom corner with a ton of low-inside to draw around 3 rails and pocket a ball in the opposite bottom corner (uh, the one maestro just posted a link to) is a fun one to learn. It does take a little bit of a stroke, though. :smile:

Aaron
 
In situations where the object ball is on the rail and the shot would ordinarily call for low inside english, I like to use NO english and just play it with draw. The secret is to hit the rail slightly before the ball, which creates a tonload of contact-induced inside english. Thus, the cueball follows the same path as it would if you had applied low inside english, but without any compromise in accuracy. It doesn't take a whole lot of practice to get a feel for this shot and you'll LOVE the results! Good luck!

BTW, Cornerman and PoolBum will be amused to learn that I got this one from old Jim in the Campus Center poolroom. :)
 
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Pay Up Sucker said:
frozen to the rail is a gimme :wink: Hit the rail first and the ob will pick up spin of the cb and hug the rail all the way down to the pocket.
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The OB picks up very little spin from the CB, and it does nothing to keep the ball on the rail. Use whatever spin is needed to position the CB for the next shot and (as somebody said) aim as if the rail isn't there.

pj
chgo
 
I know exactly what you're talking about Magyar. It's psychological. I was just practicing this shot with my buddies last night... there's sort of a trick shot, where you make the rail cut and come straight across the table... then the ball seems to magically spin straight down the table off that 2nd rail.

• If you're trying to do that specific trick shot, it's meant to be hit rail first. You can't really hit ball first and sink the shot anyway, because the inside spin throws it into the rail and you'll miss the shot.

• Even if you hit rail first, the aim is tough when the ball is truly frozen to the rail. It's actually much easier if it's about 2-3 mm off the rail.

• For this particular shot I found I hit it easily on one side (using low right) but couldn't make it to save my life on the other (using low left). So there may also be issues involving which eye you see better with (eye dominance).

• The combination of low inside with a hard stroke, especially on a shot you may hit with low outside 90% of the time... just seems weird and your brain refuses to accept it. That's what I mean by "it's psychological". Your hand won't cooperate even though you know how to put spin on a cue ball.

To do this at first, I had to trick myself into it. Rather than imagining there's no rail, I instead asked myself "what if I were cutting a ball into the side with firm low outside? How am I hitting that cue ball?" ...that's a shot you probably have done a million times, and weirdly, I think most people want to make that sort of shot with low outside whether it needs it or not.

So line up your tip and put the same kind of stroke on the shot... as you would cutting in a ball with your old friend low outside.
 
Donkey Puncher said:
If you have a chance to read the book The Science of Pocket Billiards, in it the author goes over the easiest way to pocket a ball that is on the rail. The hardest it seems is to hit the OB with OUTSIDE English.

He even has graphs and lots of data to back up his claims.

As stated previously, the easiest way is to hit rail first with INSIDE English, which is the conclusion the author comes to.

When using OUTSIDE, if really needed, hit the OB very slightly first, and the Spin Induced Throw will counteract the Collision Induced Throw and put the OB into the pocket.
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Well stated Donkey Puncher.

Regards,
 
Donkey Puncher:
the easiest way is to hit rail first with INSIDE English

When using OUTSIDE, hit the OB very slightly first
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Yes, and the easiest way to do both of these is to aim as if the rail isn't there (I know, easier said than done).

I personally like down-the-rail shots because the rail points right to the pocket, showing me exactly where to hit the OB.

pj
chgo
 
Cornerman said:
NOt to muddy things up too badly, but Shot A can also be low left. I've had that "holy $hit" moment when a pro swore to me that low left gets Shot A pattern much easier.

But, the devil is in the details. It all depends on when the cueball leaves the cushion.


Freddie <~~~ needs a moment
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Freddie,

The detail is what you hit first. It is very difficult if not nearly imposible to hit the ball & rail at exactly at the same time. So hit the ball a hair first or hit the rail a hair first. Hitting the ball first works better with outside english. Hitting the rail first works better with inside english. I believe the inside english allows for a bit more leeway.

The position you desire should dictate which way to shoot the shot.

Regards,
 
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Cornerman said:
NOt to muddy things up too badly, but Shot A can also be low left. I've had that "holy $hit" moment when a pro swore to me that low left gets Shot A pattern much easier.

But, the devil is in the details. It all depends on when the cueball leaves the cushion.


Freddie <~~~ needs a moment
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He's probably getting low center on the ball, not true draw, but I suppose on some tables the english would dig enough to send the cue ball forward, but it's not a natural action on a clean hit.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Freddie,

The detail is what you hit first. ,
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I disagree, but it's not a big deal. But I think that if you for a few instants really think about what I'm saying is important (that it's about when the cueball leaves the cushion, not what you hit first), you might realize a different look at this situation when considering position play that TATE drew up.

1. If the cueball is leaving the cushion (rebounding from the cushion) and the object ball is still there, then you get pattern B.
2. If you are leaving the cushion and the object ball is gone, then you get pattern A.

However, hitting the cushion first can get either situation (1 or 2). In fact, I think if you truly "hit the ball first," you should miss most of the time unless the pocket is forgiving.

"What you hit first" is the common go-to saying. I think that's an old and not-quite-right statement.

Freddie <~~~ thought I asked Dr. Dave to video the nuances

PS. edit - yes I did
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-139.htm
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-140.htm
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-141.htm

(I'm sure I asked him first, maybe, possibly, sneaking in some credit)
 
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Cornerman said:
I disagree, but it's not a big deal. But I think that if you for a few instants really think about what I'm saying is important (that it's about when the cueball leaves the cushion, not what you hit first), you might realize a different look at this situation when considering position play that TATE drew up.

1. If the cueball is leaving the cushion (rebounding from the cushion) and the object ball is still there, then you get pattern B.
2. If you are leaving the cushion and the object ball is gone, then you get pattern A.

However, hitting the cushion first can get either situation (1 or 2). In fact, I think if you truly "hit the ball first," you should miss most of the time unless the pocket is forgiving.

"What you hit first" is the common go-to saying. I think that's an old and not-quite-right statement.

Freddie <~~~ thought I asked Dr. Dave to video the nuances

PS. edit - yes I did
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-139.htm
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-140.htm
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-141.htm

(I'm sure I asked him first, maybe, possibly, sneaking in some credit)
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Excellent clarification! Thanks, bro!
 
Aim a little thick

Magyar19 said:
Like if a ball is frozen to a rail on my right and I try to make it in with bottom left, the ball comes off track and misses every time. It has to be something I'm doing, surely this shot has to be possible.
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Aim a little thick and hit it firm, you should be able to get whitey anywhere!!
 
Marbles said:
Aim a little thick and hit it firm, you should be able to get whitey anywhere!!
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If he hits a little thick and uses inside english as he mentioned, he may be able to get whitey anywhere but the object ball won't go into the pocket. Of course if you meant "aim thick, hit firm to get squirt without swerve, and consequently hit the cushion first", then that's different.
 
I agree

ÈÈQUOTE=Bob Jewett;3849654]If he hits a little thick and uses inside english as he mentioned, he may be able to get whitey anywhere but the object ball won't go into the pocket. Of course if you meant "aim thick, hit firm to get squirt without swerve, and consequently hit the cushion first", then that's different.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree, if he hits HITS the ball thick, it aint goin' in, that is why I said AIM a little thick, nothing to do with squirt though, i like to think of it more like hydro-planing!!! And if ya wanna roll it in pocket weight............AIM a little thin!! When you hit it pocket weight you aint gunna hydro plane but you might get some swerve...
 
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Well, we are all guessing at what the OP really is trying to do. If he is inexperienced as he says, he wouldn't even know about the shot with rail first inside draw, coming across the table, then the english taking on the second rail.

Other than that shot, there is really hardly any scenario where you would hit inside draw (and the draw is STILL there at impact) on a frozen to rail shot.

Just for the hell of it, I tried shooting the shot with inside draw just to make it, not hard enough to go across table and reverse off the second rail. (I made sure the CB still had draw at impact). It went a few times, but it was not high percentage for me. My cloth is still new, so that probably helped it from pulling very far off the rail on the shots that went.
 
Magyar19 said:
Like if a ball is frozen to a rail on my right and I try to make it in with bottom left, the ball comes off track and misses every time. It has to be something I'm doing, surely this shot has to be possible.
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If you can make the shot with inside top, the difference may be that squirt/swerve are a little different with inside bottom.

But I agree with others that inside bottom is rarely useful.

pj
chgo
 
Donkey Puncher said:
He said cutting to the RIGHT...your pictures illustrate cutting a ball to the LEFT...that might explain your confusion
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He didn't say cutting it to the right. He said the object ball is "to my right". That means cutting it to the left. The diagrams Tate posted are accurate.

KMRUNOUT
 
rail first

I find it very useful to become comfortable shooting frozen balls on a rail with inside spin hitting rail first. You can learn to shoot fairly straight on to a ball and still get it to roll down the rail. You can also use it to shoot a ball that is just off a rail by leaving a bit more distance between the rail contact point and the object ball.

Perhaps the problem is personal, but the downside from my experience is that I find a higher than normal likelihood of scratching in the next opposite pocket. Particularly if I am rolling a ball down a long rail, the cue ball seems to have eyes for the opposite corner pocket. It does not make sense to me why that should be more common than any other shot. But it happens too often not to notice.

I was also taught once to hit the object ball directly with straight backspin for balls the are just off the rail. That also works very well for sharp angle cuts. It is not as easy as the other shot, but it works.

Practice, practice, practice.
Greg
 
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Everyone seems to be focusing on where to hit the shot. I'll offer something a bit different for you to try.

1. A very loose grip on the butt of the cue.

2. A slightly slower forward stroke.

3. A slightly longer fluid follow through
 
Magyar19 said:
Like if a ball is frozen to a rail on my right and I try to make it in with bottom left, the ball comes off track and misses every time. It has to be something I'm doing, surely this shot has to be possible.
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As others have pointed out, it is possible. I suggest you start with a much shorter shot -- 1 diamond / 1 diamond or less -- and work up to longer shots.

A major problem for beginners shooting balls frozen to the cushion is that they have no easy way to know whether they missed by hitting too full or too thin. You need to figure it out from the reaction of the cue ball and that takes a while to learn.

Inside draw is a useful technique if you have to maximize the side spin and you shoot softly enough that the draw has turned into stun or follow by the time the cue ball gets to the object ball. It requires a thinner aim usually because there will be more swerve. Again, if you consistently miss a shot, shorten the shot until you can make it and then gradually increase the length.
 
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