ChrisBanks
Banned
It's only money.
So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?
- Thread starter CreeDo
- Start date
Van I have some
KD
Its a little hard to connect the dots backwards, but it is for sure a fact that the Vegas books closed up shop on pool because of that event and never reopened that window. I think we can see the results of a game that has a heavy gambling background and interest trying to exist without Las Vegas.
I think, in a way, the blame gets to rest on the lack of a unifying organized body. As I usedtobe rich pointed out, boys will be boys. I figure it was MLB that came to the rescue after the World Series Scandal and supported the trials in an effort to make baseball appear clean again.
Kevin
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I love the "if we didn't do it someone else would have" defense. Not saying its not true, just saying these guys colluded to defraud Vegas and Vegas shut the door on pool. How is that working out for pool?
Kevin
So if they all bet their $50k on Mike at 20:1, that means they would split a total of $1,050,000.
Does anyone know if they did in fact bet the line and if they got paid by the casino?
Did they let any railbirds in on the dump that also bet on Mike at the window?
Does anyone know if they did in fact bet the line and if they got paid by the casino?
Did they let any railbirds in on the dump that also bet on Mike at the window?
Over the years the players have shot themselves in the foot many times to make the quick buck. Dumping against the first casino that took bets on a pool tournament was just about the worst of all of them. Don't forget there are 6 other players that are just as guilty as Hall and Lebron. Johnnyt
Some historical perspective may be important here. The Mirage, the host hotel of the event, was quite new and wanted to be "the new Caesars Palace," and one aspect in which this had to happen was in hosting sporting events. Another was sports betting.
In 1990, James Buster Douglas, to the amazement of all, knocked out Mike Tyson to win the heavyweight championship. The Mirage's first big roll of the dice was to purchase the rights to Douglas' next two fights. Pool was another beneficiary of the spending binge of The Mirage, as the Challenge of Champions was to be staged at the then state-of-the-art hotel. The Mirage made the event bettable in its own sports book, making the event more visible to its customers.
The dump, however, cost pool its shot to be on the permanent slate at a thriving new hotel in Vegas and to become one of the bettable events at one of the nation's most prominent sports books.
The image of pool and of those who play it professionally took a big hit that day and when a giant of the sports betting industry took a financial hit, the word got out pretty quickly.
In the world of finance, what happened at the 1991 Challenge of Champions is called insider trading, and those who willfully participated in the dump disgraced the game.
In 1990, James Buster Douglas, to the amazement of all, knocked out Mike Tyson to win the heavyweight championship. The Mirage's first big roll of the dice was to purchase the rights to Douglas' next two fights. Pool was another beneficiary of the spending binge of The Mirage, as the Challenge of Champions was to be staged at the then state-of-the-art hotel. The Mirage made the event bettable in its own sports book, making the event more visible to its customers.
The dump, however, cost pool its shot to be on the permanent slate at a thriving new hotel in Vegas and to become one of the bettable events at one of the nation's most prominent sports books.
The image of pool and of those who play it professionally took a big hit that day and when a giant of the sports betting industry took a financial hit, the word got out pretty quickly.
In the world of finance, what happened at the 1991 Challenge of Champions is called insider trading, and those who willfully participated in the dump disgraced the game.
What I remember of the video
To the best of my recolection, in the hill hill game Mike dogged the out and Buddy had to shoot. There was an 8-9 combination that was very simple and less than a foot from the pocket. It appeared to me that when Buddy shot the 7 ball he tried to scratch in the side pocket but just missed the scratch, getting perfect shape on the wired 8-9 combo. Buddy managed to throw the 9 just enough so that it jawed the pocket.
I had just watched a documentary about the $64,000 Question game show that was rigged and I remembered the expression on the contestants face when he was forced to give the wrong answer to a question that he did know the answer to. His expression just screamed "Why are they making me miss such an easy question!" When Buddy missed the combo he leaned forward on the table and had that exact same expression on his face. No body had to tell me that the match was fixed.
To the best of my recolection, in the hill hill game Mike dogged the out and Buddy had to shoot. There was an 8-9 combination that was very simple and less than a foot from the pocket. It appeared to me that when Buddy shot the 7 ball he tried to scratch in the side pocket but just missed the scratch, getting perfect shape on the wired 8-9 combo. Buddy managed to throw the 9 just enough so that it jawed the pocket.
I had just watched a documentary about the $64,000 Question game show that was rigged and I remembered the expression on the contestants face when he was forced to give the wrong answer to a question that he did know the answer to. His expression just screamed "Why are they making me miss such an easy question!" When Buddy missed the combo he leaned forward on the table and had that exact same expression on his face. No body had to tell me that the match was fixed.
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Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Yes, I think the events of the "dump" might have hurt pool back in 1991 and shortly there after. However, long term, I believe it would have ended up in the exact same place as it is today, even if the "dump" never happened. Its frankly a boring game for the masses to watch. Hell, even when I have money on a pool game, I often don't watch it.
Every sport has "points shavings", even the guys that are being paid millions. To think points shavings would not have happened on a very large scale in pool is very naive, or wishful thinking, imo.
Every sport has "points shavings", even the guys that are being paid millions. To think points shavings would not have happened on a very large scale in pool is very naive, or wishful thinking, imo.
In this case and cases like it.... I guess pool needs more Earls
Rather deal with an honest azz hole with integrity than a nice guy with no integrity. This is a great thread
Rather deal with an honest azz hole with integrity than a nice guy with no integrity. This is a great thread
we ran into Joe Pesci who was out there filming the movie (Casino
I played with Earl in the Challenge of Champions a couple of years after the one being discussed. I find it difficult to believe much money was bet on that match. Vegas would be on the alert for that type of thing happening. One thing about Las Vegas, they're not naive when it comes to gambling, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't cover themselves.
When I played in the Challenge of Champions we got to play the Private Golf course owned by Steve W. that he payed 60 Million Dollars to build (it had grass, dirt, and trees from different countries on every hole).
At the golf course we ran into Joe Pesci who was out there filming a movie (Casino I think). Allen Hopkins knew Joe and had him sit down for about an hour telling "pool strories". Joe was great and just as funny in person as on the "big screen".
Oh, yeah, I know for a fact Earl and I didn't make any "savers" in the tournament and as far as he and I were concerned we were ALL playing for the 50,000. This "may" have been the first time and maybe not, I honestly don't know what was done in the past. Rumors are generally "altered".
I played with Earl in the Challenge of Champions a couple of years after the one being discussed. I find it difficult to believe much money was bet on that match. Vegas would be on the alert for that type of thing happening. One thing about Las Vegas, they're not naive when it comes to gambling, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't cover themselves.
When I played in the Challenge of Champions we got to play the Private Golf course owned by Steve W. that he payed 60 Million Dollars to build (it had grass, dirt, and trees from different countries on every hole).
At the golf course we ran into Joe Pesci who was out there filming a movie (Casino I think). Allen Hopkins knew Joe and had him sit down for about an hour telling "pool strories". Joe was great and just as funny in person as on the "big screen".
Oh, yeah, I know for a fact Earl and I didn't make any "savers" in the tournament and as far as he and I were concerned we were ALL playing for the 50,000. This "may" have been the first time and maybe not, I honestly don't know what was done in the past. Rumors are generally "altered".
I played with Earl in the Challenge of Champions a couple of years after the one being discussed. I find it difficult to believe much money was bet on that match. Vegas would be on the alert for that type of thing happening. One thing about Las Vegas, they're not naive when it comes to gambling, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't cover themselves.
When I played in the Challenge of Champions we got to play the Private Golf course owned by Steve W. that he payed 60 Million Dollars to build (it had grass, dirt, and trees from different countries on every hole).
At the golf course we ran into Joe Pesci who was out there filming a movie (Casino I think). Allen Hopkins knew Joe and had him sit down for about an hour telling "pool strories". Joe was great and just as funny in person as on the "big screen".
Oh, yeah, I know for a fact Earl and I didn't make any "savers" in the tournament and as far as he and I were concerned we were ALL playing for the 50,000. This "may" have been the first time and maybe not, I honestly don't know what was done in the past. Rumors are generally "altered".
I've played a little golf with Pesci and he's a wild man. The most memorable part of Pesci's golf game was the statuesque blonde FOX that would show to get him.
Good luck with the Cup.
Thanks
Kevin
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According to a post by Jay a couple years ago, Allen Hopkins was the one player of the eight in 1991 who did not participate in the scam (Earl did not play that year): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2402290&postcount=129
Is that right? I stand corrected I had heard it was Earl.
Thanks
Kevin
PS: Alternate Response - What does Jay know?
The maximum bet was $200 and the players could not buy tickets. That did not stop them from sending someone else to the window for them. Each winning $200 ticket paid $4200 and I think there were only eleven sold on Lebron before they changed the line to 9-1. The Mirage took a hit for 40K but when I discussed it with the head of the Sports Book, he laughed it off, saying it was small bananas. But they never made a line again in subsequent Challenges held there in future years.
Thanks Jay. Interesting that each bet was maxed at $200. I am not sure if they do that with other sports book bets. I wonder if they maxed it because they foresaw the possibility of too much $ influencing play.
nice thread
Thanks to Jay and others who have shed some more interesting light on this infamous event. I agree with those that said if it didn't happen there and the Mirage continued to have the window open in subsequent years, it would eventually have happened anyway. I am frankly surprised they even opened a window to bet on pool matches initially, anyhow. I am among those who never saw the final match and would've liked to see the ending as described.
Thanks to Jay and others who have shed some more interesting light on this infamous event. I agree with those that said if it didn't happen there and the Mirage continued to have the window open in subsequent years, it would eventually have happened anyway. I am frankly surprised they even opened a window to bet on pool matches initially, anyhow. I am among those who never saw the final match and would've liked to see the ending as described.
Someone had the final match, or at least the last game of the final match on youtube one of the prior times this topic came up. I watched it at the time, but haven't been able to find it since.