I was curious what everybody thinks about this. How do the "road warriors" of today stack up against the old timers, a close one to me and well known, I will use Cheyenne Pete Trujillo as an example of the older road hustlers. How would guys of today compare to them? I like the older ones better, safe was still a bad word back then lol so it was pretty much run out central with guys coming with some amazing shots. I feel that the top guys of back then would be better shot makers because they went for it more often than not. Something else some old timers have told me is that back then everybody just wanted to be in action no matter the amount and they would play for days and days with neither wanting to quit the loser simply because they wanted that competition. These days it seems everybody is scared to bet it up like before, obviously short of a handful of guys in the world. I am not talking about guys like SVB who are obviously going to be the favorite in pretty much any even game and the favorite even with spots. I am talking the guys who don't do many tournaments but still travel and hustle.
Road warriors, past vs. present.
- Thread starter master_cueist
- Start date
Learning from predecessors
In most sports, generally speaking, today's players are better than those in the past, because they have all their predecessors to learn from. Today we also have better training, better training aids and better equipment.
You don't see the road players that you used to because of the economy. There are still plenty of guys willing to take your money, but not so many with money to lose....
In most sports, generally speaking, today's players are better than those in the past, because they have all their predecessors to learn from. Today we also have better training, better training aids and better equipment.
You don't see the road players that you used to because of the economy. There are still plenty of guys willing to take your money, but not so many with money to lose....
Generally I would agree with most other sports. But answer me this, and this will kinda move away from the strictly hustler aspect of my question, but why is Mosconi's high run still intact? It would not be hard to get the same size table and adjust the pockets to the same size if someone felt like trying to break it. Why is Earl's US Open record still not even close to being broken? Given we have 3 guys right now who for sure have the possibility of breaking it (SVB, Appleton, and Mika). Why is Efren, Busty, Parica, Strickland and other old timers STILL always in the running in any and every tournament even with the top players of today? This is one of those cases where I don't think technology has ANYTHING to do with it.
To my memory I would not really put Pete in the group of the past road warriors. He may have hit the road a little but mostly played at home. He did attend many national ameture (sp) events like vena ,bca etc. and he would gamble , carefully. Guys that were consistantly on the road making living were generally on a higher level then Pete. Some mid level roadie's just before and after your time might be Norm Wines (porky) or Chris Macdonald. Norm robbed Pete in his own Wy. room. I have been playing pool since 1959 and seen and played a number of people you may nver heard of and alot yiou have. In all those years the games changed for example roll out to express. One thing that has stayed the same the good players of yesterday and today were both good at the games they played. Who was better, well I think the old timers played more and people were betting more and maybe the newer players had better training but people aren't betting as much. They are both good and to be respected for their skills.
The guys you mention are all of the Express era playing on the conditions. So to me old timers would be in the roll out era playing on completely different conditions and equipment. Really hard to compare they were great intheir era. Who was better Shaq or Bill Russel.
it indeed is not a fair comparison. Th eold two hot guys were far more fun to watch and in that game, the shooter won the majority of the time.
Richie Ambrose was a world champ. They changed to Texas Express and in six months, he wa just another pool player.
Pete was a fine player and played all games well. He was soft spoken and alwas well behaved. he did not spend so much time on the road as Francis would have castrated him.
Many during that era could stay under the radar too. It was just easier. Most understood and did not knock or queer the guy as in today. Now somebody walks i and in twenty minutes his picture is online, he is ID'D, and done! Not many are smart enogh to keep quiet and win with it. When they came in back then, the pool room filled up quickly and there was a lot going on. Streamers would have loved that except the real players would have never gone for it.
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All great points. Richie is a great example. By the way I agree, Pete was a fine player, but useing him as an example of a hardened road pleyer just isn't correct.
Can't leave this guy out. Classic and thanks to Fast Lenny for getting this up on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6rkxYc7c5M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6rkxYc7c5M
In all fairness I think you are highly under-rating pete. Every time SVB comes around he still goes in there and talks to him and has always greatly valued everything Pete could offer. He has advertising sheets from back in the day with all the big well known names on it and he is one of the top ones mentioned. With all the talent that was out there I highly doubt that just a lower end hustler could make it. I agree he didn't get out and play too much, he would go to guys to play them but didn't really "do the road". I have been told by many guys who WERE top players including the recently late Danny Medina (r.i.p) that Pete was always tough action and Danny and Pete played quite often. Surfer Rod also has personally told me that Pete was super tough action. My post wasn't just about him though, I was just talking about older guys in general and you are correct you probably do know more than I do about the older hustlers and players. Also, I can't remember who said it, Francis would have killed him if he was on the road a lot, which I find kinda funny because she is a fantastic shot herself and many many people say that she has one of the prettiest strokes they have ever seen.
When i compare those of today with those back in the day, i come up with Jason Kirkwood. i felt he had some of those qualities from the first time i saw him i n action. Not a great player, but much heart and a real battler.
Who today can say players today could play better than BUDDY ( WON 18 STRAIGHT TOURNS. Ronnie ALLEN RAN MORE 8 AN OUTS THAN ANYONE FOR THE CASH KEITHER WOULD PLAY ALL NIGHT . ALLEN H. WOULD PLAY ANYONE OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET.JIMMY REED PLAYED 10BALL LIKE HE INVENTED IT. SIEGEL ,LOUIE HAVE TO SAY EARL. NOT TO MENTION LUTHER L. IRVING CRANE.WILLIE. JUST SAYING
As I said Pete was a fine player (maybe still is) but you sort of make my point. Rod Curry was a good player, not great by any means, and yes I can see Pete and Surf matching up close 8ball on a box. Any other table or game Pete has the edge.
I think you are right. My point was we will never no for sure but we do know they were both great during thier time.
I wasn't claiming Rod was better by any means. Both of them told me the same story, when they first played Rod used his well known "mud ball" ability to beat pete for I think they said around 1k. Pete then practiced with the mud ball for 2 straight weeks and went to where Rod was and robbed him blind using the mud ball. Rod also said that playing on a big table, banks, and golf that Pete destroyed him. I stand by what I said that you are highly under-rating Pete. Just to make it clear, he is not a very good player anymore, he is not doing too well and is in and out of the hospital on an almost daily basis. He has his good and bad days. His memory is shot, but in a way there is a strange romance along with it all. He will ask you something then forget he asked you literally 5 minutes later. At the same time though, it is a little sad he will remember times from the old days like it was yesterday and he sits there and wonders why guys that he used to play with decades ago who died 10, 20, some 30 years ago don't come and see him anymore even though his wife tells him that he just forgets. Where the romantic part of it comes in to play is now he acts like a 20 year old again with his wife and is always "wooing" her and almost seems like he is trying to get him to be his girlfriend like when they were 20 again. Sadly, Pete is very close to being another old time player gone.
Seems like the olden days there was more interest, and more money in pool. And a better economy. And you could actually hustle people, whereas today if someone pulls off a single big score, he gets posted about on AZB the next day (possibly with a photo attached).
I guess if he got into the pool scene early enough, before the days of the internet... a smart shortstop could make real money. But I think those days are done.
I see players kind of romanticise the olden days and the old hustlers, but I bet a lot of these guys were only betting big because they knew they were robbing someone. It's not that they had more 'gamble' or 'heart' or whatever. They just were able to trap people who didn't have access to the same information. Now pretty much everyone has access to the little black book.
I guess if he got into the pool scene early enough, before the days of the internet... a smart shortstop could make real money. But I think those days are done.
I see players kind of romanticise the olden days and the old hustlers, but I bet a lot of these guys were only betting big because they knew they were robbing someone. It's not that they had more 'gamble' or 'heart' or whatever. They just were able to trap people who didn't have access to the same information. Now pretty much everyone has access to the little black book.
I knew Cheyenne Pete and Surfer Rod. Pete used to run around with Chuey Rivera, a very dangerous money player. Rod was a "real" road man, hitting the road in his old Chevy and going anywhere he could get a game, and betting high, real high, sky high! He was well known from coast to coast. And he'd gamble until the poolroom closed, he ran out of money, or he busted the other guy. And that's how pool was in the old days, you didn't quit until your opponent went broke or said quit.
There were many, many more road men back in the 60's and 70's, far more than today. Mostly shortstop speed and above. It was easier to travel back then, much less expensive (maybe $20 a day), and far more poolrooms and good bars to play in. Getting games was not a problem, every poolroom had a couple of guys who would play. A typical game on the road was $5 or $10 9-Ball or maybe a $50/100 set. I once won over $400 playing $5 9-Ball (after 16 hours), and that was a sweet score in 1968. One Pocket was the other game that you had to play, and a typical game was $10 or $20. A $100 score was a good day's work.
They still played $1 a game Eight Ball in bars back then, but it was only 25 cents a game to play. I can remember many times holding the table for hours and maybe winning 50 or 60 games in a row (quarters lined up along the rail). I'd walk out of there with my pockets stuffed with bills. $50 was money then! JohnnyT knows about this. It wasn't hard to find a bar with a $1 Eight Ball game going every night. The key here was not to overstay your welcome. You couldn't go back night after night. I might go in a good joint once every few months. I'd tell them I'd been working (right
). There must have been 500 guys on the road that I knew and recognized after a while. And they knew me too. We would see each other all over the country. Today I suspect that number is well under 100. But today's players are very impressive, so many really good players. But even the great players of today might not have been too happy if they ran into Buddy, Jimmy Reid, Mataya, Marino, Lisciotti, Hopkins, Richie Florence, Billy Johnson, Greg Stevens or Denny Searcy in their prime. Don't think these guys couldn't play for the cheese. Buddy was numero uno and Ronnie ruled One Pocket (except for Marvin). No one today banks any better than Taylor or Bugs. But there was a limited market for Bank Pool games, just like today. It was almost all 9-Ball and One Pocket and Eight Ball in bars. If you could play those games, you could make a decent living.
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It accomplished that......good job, now we can all retire.
Roll Out Rules RULE....let's bring back rules that make the Game challenging and give someone a chance to truly dominate the Game. One foul was designed to speed up play and as a "field equalizer" to get more players in the fields. It accomplished that......good job, now we can all retire.
Roll Out Rules RULE....let's bring back rules that make the Game challenging and give someone a chance to truly dominate the Game. One foul was designed to speed up play and as a "field equalizer" to get more players in the fields. It accomplished that......good job, now we can all retire.
I'm intrigued to see mention of Cheyenne Pete on the forums. There seems to be some differing views on his playing ability, of which I would not know as I've never met the man.
HOWEVER, I am pleased to say that Little Joe Villalpando is a friend and he knows VERY well of Pete's "speed". Let's just say it was pretty high....high enough to win a major!
BTW, Little Joe can still dab it a bit..."Lil Joe Collects Another Tourney Win!"
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=208657
From this thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=85723
HOWEVER, I am pleased to say that Little Joe Villalpando is a friend and he knows VERY well of Pete's "speed". Let's just say it was pretty high....high enough to win a major!
BTW, Little Joe can still dab it a bit..."Lil Joe Collects Another Tourney Win!"
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=208657
From this thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=85723
Since Bill's photos aren't coming up for me, I decided to post my own. Here is a series of photos I took a few weeks back as Joe did a show & tell with the article in question. The audience was me (taking pics), my wife, and our friend Alan (who owns the "razor sharp points" Olney that was discussed a lot recently--ebony forearm & coco points).
It's too bad for history's sake that the author goofed & mixed Joe's last name with his partner's. It should have read: "Lil" Joe Villapando & "Cheyenne Pete" Trujilo.
On the bottom paper there is a article of Gulyassy winning a tournament. I have always thought many underestimated Mikes speed. I was around Mike for about a year as we were both following the Baxter tour and I can tell you nobody wanted to draw Mike.