you forget you ever had a "conflict".
After the first 299 years you forget you ever had a "conflict".
After the first 299 years you forget you ever had a "conflict".
Derby 9ball rack mechanics
- Thread starter nathandumoulin
- Start date
Standard Racking Rules?????
1.)A referee or volunteer random racks every rack and the players cannot question the rack or order of balls
2.)Any player cannot ever touch any object balls as if there is a racker or referee than there is no reason to ever touch any object balls.
3.)Any player can only set the cueball in place when needed(Ball in hand and breakshot) and can not clean,buff,polish or wipe the cueball with anything or anywhere but can ask a referee to clean the cueball not to exceed 2 times a match.
4.)No intentional cut breaks at all and 3 balls must pass the side pockets and for every ball pocketsed on breakshot then minus number of balls to pass the side pockets on the break shot.
5.)1 referee/racker/volunteer for every 3-4 tables.How many times have you seen a player having to search for or yell for a referee to call a good hit.
great points brought up and after reading some of this thread look in the main forum as I just started a new thread about this.
1.)A referee or volunteer random racks every rack and the players cannot question the rack or order of balls
2.)Any player cannot ever touch any object balls as if there is a racker or referee than there is no reason to ever touch any object balls.
3.)Any player can only set the cueball in place when needed(Ball in hand and breakshot) and can not clean,buff,polish or wipe the cueball with anything or anywhere but can ask a referee to clean the cueball not to exceed 2 times a match.
4.)No intentional cut breaks at all and 3 balls must pass the side pockets and for every ball pocketsed on breakshot then minus number of balls to pass the side pockets on the break shot.
5.)1 referee/racker/volunteer for every 3-4 tables.How many times have you seen a player having to search for or yell for a referee to call a good hit.
No one has a problem with chalking up a break and run under the No Conflict Rules. I have seen the evolution with my own eyes. Think it through. There are only two ways to make a ball on the break: 1) wire a ball in or 2) slop a ball in. So the player has to cheat, depend on a gadget, or hope and pray. This should be rewarded? The ball on the break should be meaningless. Players realize this rather quickly. Players instinctively know how wrong our current break rules are. They get mad. They should be. Let them shoot what they break. Fixed!
When you make a ball on the break, you have not done anything special.
A player can't game the system with a soft break. If a player soft breaks as a strategy, he will not meet the center string requirement every so often. A player can't risk it. He will lose the match. Balls pocketed in the foot corner pockets do not count toward the center string requirement. That forces the players to hit them. Players practice and develop a break speed that just about matches the firmest struck shot they might hit during a game. The break becomes a pool shot and not a smash shot. That is good for the game in every way.
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I would have to disagree with number 3 some of the newer chaulks often leave a heavy smudge on the cue ball and should be allowed to have it cleaned off at the very least after every rack before the break as needed. This often necessary to avoid skidders with rotation games where the ball is often juiced on shots.
This is where we disagree. Well, one of the places I guess.
I consider something like the 10b break (2nd row in the side) a skillful shot.
It's not wired. Some guys hit it with about 90% regularity, others who haven't figured it out will be lucky to hit 50% on the same equipment.
If we're talking strictly 9b, then perhaps 9 on the spot is similarly challenging. And that's what we should be looking for: let the breaker have his advantage, but require him to work a little for it, by opening with a slightly challenging shot. Make it a potential advantage, not a guaranteed one.
Right not the breaker has something like a 5% edge IF he makes a ball and doesn't foul.
What do you think that goes up to, under no conflict rules?
You say they work great for the events you've run, but is that with shane and busty breaking?
An idea I had long ago was to have one player rack the balls, with the other player watching. Then you flip a coin and the winner of the flip gets to break the rack. Pretty simple and it might work.
Cory
Cory
There's no problem here. If it's so easy, why the hell don't all of you put 10-20 packs on everyone else then? Give me a break. It's an acquired skill, just like the rest of the game. I don't see anyone complaining about phenolic tips and jump cues in here, but we all know the game was invented without the use of those.
Hypocrits.
Hypocrits.
This is a trick shot and is wired if the balls are set up perfectly and hit perfectly. It requires a gadget or that the balls be manually manipulated. If the trick shot is not set up just right, the shot has no chance. Ask any trick shot artist. This is distracting and time consuming.
I see no difference between manipulating the 2nd row in Ten-Ball or the wing-ball row in Nine-Ball so that a ball can be made. The standard should never be a "perfect frozen rack". That is all kinds of trouble.
The purpose of the break should be to spread the balls and get a shot. That is good enough.
Get the balls racked and broke and get on with the game.
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Everyone stating from the same point and opportunity sounds like a good thing to me....aka a perfectly tight and well placed rack.
SVB manipulates the one ball every time in rotation games when he is racking his own. He spins it with his finger to spread the two balls behind it. I agree with you, touching the balls after the rack is removed should be banned.
I don't know why the don't simply adopt the magic rack, that takes all the games out of it and gives everybody the same rack.
OK, we have 2 of the same goals... avoid arguments, get on with the game.
If you could accomplish those 2 goals, BUT, instead of the breaker 100% to shoot afterwards, the breaker is 50/50 to shoot afterwards, would that be an acceptible solution? Shouldn't that take a backseat to the other 2 goals?
Or do you feel it's essential that whoever broke 'em is the guy who starts shooting that rack? No matter what?
That's part of the resistance to your idea... the idea that breaking = free stab at an open table, which means to keep it fair you must alternate. Which sucks the feeling of momentum out of the game.
You cannot tell me with a straight face that two guys, alternating breaks, running out every time, making a ball on the break sometimes... until the score is 6-6... is JUST AS entertaining as one guy opening with a genuine 6-pack, and the other player firing back with his own 6-pack.
I am getting worn out. You are off the mark on every count. You are speculating. Look, to understand what it all means, you would have to play for some time with the rules. I am confident that you would like them and see the wisdom of them.
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This was the point I was trying to make as well. Not as entertaining but more importantly, the alt break is a great equilizer. Not good for the Game IMHO.
I would like Paul to keep stats and try to estimate just how much of an increase in break and runs there is. There is no doubt there are more runouts and way more hill hill matches.
This is not true.
Alternate breaks is a big advantage for the better player but at the same time, the matches are much closer (you could say that it is an equalizer in that way). This is not IMHO.
This is very good for the game.
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Here are some break-and-runout percentages under the No Conflict Rules. I do not value breaker wins stats. That is a function of a weaker or stronger opponent. Tables: Gold Crowns with regulation pockets as prescribed in the BCA Rule Book.
28% Eddie Abraham from Philadelphia
26% Shane Winters from Michigan
20% Dave Grau from Rochester
20% Shayne Morrow from Erie
15% Gary Nolan (Bushwhacker) from Indiana PA
Stats are interesting but they do not begin to tell the story of what a player will do and what he won't do. I can tell everyone that all players of all calibers will do it and they will like it. Everyone wants to shoot after the break. Everyone is just sick and tired of being screwed at the front end of all of our short games.
The break-and-run is sacred. Don't wreck it with a mandatory pushout. Make it better.
I don't want to tell everything about all this. Players need to play it and find out for themselves. Contrary to all the chatter here, there is only a slight uptick in break-and-runouts under the No Conflict Rules. I can explain why that is but I shouldn't. Players need to find out for themselves.
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This is a contradiction. If the balls must be hit perfectly, then they are not wired. Wired means that the balls only have to be *hit*, not hit any special way.
KMRUNOUT
Call it whatever you want to call it. I won't argue.
I will just quote a famous AZ philosopher h2o4170: "Basicly the break has turned into a trick shot. Get the balls where you want them ,hit them here and its dead."
If you want to see the game really played then roll out after the break
That's for sure. There's ways to get a shot on the one a HIGH percentage of the time in the bottom corner pocket. It's basically like playing "the ghost," for professionals.
If you want to see the game really played then roll out after the break to start the game. Then both players get to play every game. Then you could play shorter races and it would actually be more of a test of skill.
That's for sure. There's ways to get a shot on the one a HIGH percentage of the time in the bottom corner pocket. It's basically like playing "the ghost," for professionals.
If you want to see the game really played then roll out after the break to start the game. Then both players get to play every game. Then you could play shorter races and it would actually be more of a test of skill.
Ok but "get the balls where you want them", and a perfectly frozen rack are often two different things. There are certainly ways to wire the corner ball by intentionally creating gaps in certain places. This is obviously something that can be manipulated more easily than when using the magic rack. Granted the magic rack doesn't perfectly freeze the balls every time (unless used properly) and forever (unless a relatively new one is used).
I'm not personally too worried about this topic, so I'll leave it where you left it.
KMRUNOUT