JA vs MD push out after the break match.

[Island Drive]

I agree with someone getting rewarded for hard work and Shane has certainly done that and more. What I don't understand is the racking part of the equation. It would have been a bad joke to Mosconi, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak, Hopkins, and Greenleaf to rack their own balls in a match.

Why don't they have a neutral Referee, and why isn't this the normal way to play a match of any significance? I know there's 50 guys/ladies in Vegas that would do a great job of racking, why isn't there a referee that racks, calls fouls and over sees the match?

Money adresses your last question about why NO refs. As for match play with pros, its gotta be sets like tennis.
And CJ, as you know Texas Express changed the game for the good in many ways, here's the next generation McChesney tourney design.

And when they choose Not to use first shot Roll out, this Colorado Express must be tried. WORKS FOR TENNIS......

Another side bar comment realized from another thread inadvertently relating to ''increasing spectator interest'' BECAUSE B&R NINE BALL HAS ISSUES. This guy was watching Computer online one pocket at home. His wife who'd never seed one pocket stopped to watch and asked what were they doing and He explained, ''he's got this pocket and the other guy has that pocket''. He realized her ''quick'' interest in one of the most difficult games of all to learn....because she always Knew which pocket each player was trying to get balls towards, it made it simple for her to think about. Then when beginners ''See'' what happens, their Eyes/mind opens a little more.

''COLORADO EXPRESS”

Single elimination:
Five minute break between sets
Sets….best 3 out of 5….Race to 2 or3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7, TD’s choice…
Lag for who breaks first set....then alternate breaker/racker
Alternate breaker for each set
Alternate racker for each set
Do this till match ends
Use Magic Rack and break from Head Spot Only...Pro D break area.
If both players are tied at two sets apiece, tiebreaker (like tennis) in effect. Then lag for break and alternate break with first breaker breaking one rack, then opponent breaks two, and two to other opponent till the end.
Final Match race to 9….must win by 2 games or first to 11. Or some other length
Finals could be played on two tables, side by side. Have racker rack the second table immediately after first tables rack is completed to speed up breaking of second rack of breakers turn at the table.
24 second shot clock, one 24 second extension allowed per rack
Bathroom break, one per match, Not allowed during opponents inning at table, exceptions….see TD

I’m sure other small details will come up, but this could also be done in a Single Elimination format, best 3 Sets out of 5, races to 3, total number of possible games played in this situation could be 17, and would probably take less time overall than the other dbl elim format.

 

[Aaron_S]

Seems to me that combining a mandatory push with the other rotation breaking rules (so many balls hitting a rail or passing some point on the table, etc.) would make the break a pretty big disadvantage. If the reward for breaking well and making a ball is that I have to put my opponent in the driver's seat by giving him the option, and at the same time there is no option of me playing a defensive break, then why on Earth would I ever want to break?

And if I did have to break, what should my strategy be? It almost seems that it should be the exact opposite of what it is now: 1) don't make a ball, 2) don't leave the 1-ball near a pocket 3) don't leave the cueball near the center of the table. Maybe if I could accomplish those three things, I could force my opponent into a push and thereby find myself with the option instead of him. The last thing I would want to do is what SVB has spent years mastering - making a ball or two and gagging the 1-ball up in the corner. We all know how much fun it is to try to find a good push option when the on-ball is hanging over a pocket.

I just don't know - it seems pretty radical to me. If the goal is to punish the guy who just won a rack, or if the goal is to prevent packages, I'm thinking alternating breaks or even loser breaks are better solutions than a mandatory push.

Or, if you are just trying to force a big defensive battle in every game, just do what CB said and play one hole.

Aaron

 

[iba7467]

Duplicate post.

 

[Island Drive]

I am always honest on here and will quit posting the day I feel the need to not be {honest}. Even if I broke like Shane (and Johnny does) I would vote to change to these rules. The game will never go anywhere like it is now.

I am willing to practice my break for 8 hours a day if needed, but I just don't think that's the way the game is headed. It's not just the break, it's the rack too, you have to have both working together for success.

The break and rack becomes most of the game, that's why Johnny and I don't like it. There's thousands of shots not played that would be if they played straight "Roll Out Rules"...... literary thousands, think about that for a minute.

Very nice clear picture of the reality of the situation.

 

[Island Drive]

No, I'd love to compete again playing Roll Out. It's like anything else, the beauty is in the complexity of things. I have an arsenal that I don't ever get to use that makes the game so much more fun for me and players like Johnny, Rodney, Sigel, Earl, etc.

Imagine a concert pianist that could only use 30% of the keys....imagine an artist that could only use 30% of their colors.

This is how we feel about the "new" style of 9 Ball, it's just maybe 30% of what it could be if they just played the right rules. There's nothing lucky or easy about 9 Ball, it's evolved into a carnival game to speed up tournaments.

The players never had a say so in the rules changing, faster cloth, and jump sticks sneaking into the game. For the most part the players just kept quiet, often times being paid to endorse these products until the game became what it is today.

The Game is not very happy, and ohhhhhh, if it could only speak. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Once we find the correct language, its implementations will create the sound of music. Wax Off.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Just use pool.bz's break 9 ball function. Alternate break. The "breaker" gets BIH behind the line to start. If the 1 is behind the line, it goes on the spot.

 

[Black-Balled]

So Johnny beats SVB, then SVB beats Dechaine 54-28 and Johnny wants essentially a spot from Dechaine. That's nitty and nutty.

That pretty much sums up this particular case.

 

[TATE]

Basically you can roll out anytime you choose. Your opponent can either accept the shot or pass it back to you.

Two fouls by the same player is ball in hand....and you spot all balls. Ball in hand behind the line on a scratch...(two diamonds up) and you spot the balls behind that line on a scratch. This requires making a lot of "spot shots".

Those are the main rules.

CJ,

Even though I'm old school, those rules were terrible.

Sure there were fewer rolls but there was also less skill in the kicking game. In my opinion, the players today are better at kicking and banking than ever - especially considering the tighter standards we have today.

Shane made a joke of a "normal" table - BUCKETS - I don't know if you watched the match but Shane almost did not play a safety and almost didn't miss ANY attempted shots - full table banks and jumps were just another hanger to him. His kick shots were amazingly accurate.

To even up the break rolls, tighter pockets really do help.

Chris

 

[TATE]

So Johnny beats SVB, then SVB beats Dechaine 54-28 and Johnny wants essentially a spot from Dechaine. That's nitty and nutty.

I know you know Johnny Archer is not a nit. It's called starting a dialogue. Mike says "no way", Johhny insists and finally caves and says - OK, let's just play even. Johnny just wants to play Mike, that's all.

 

[SakuJack]

To even up the break rolls, tighter pockets really do help.

Good post, and it's as simple as this, in my opinion.

 

[eddie0776]

I would love to see the roll out played, but they changed it for tv so it was a faster more exciting game right??? It did speed it up, but we have lost tv support!! Going back to the old way may help and it might not. I was brought up playing the old way and didnt even know about the ball in hand thing until 89, 90 and when I tried that with my dad he said that aint pool thats chicken sh**!! Takes the chess moves out of pool playing the new way.

 

[Poolshootindon]

Lets See Here

How about we have Arimith make some of those balls that roll funny that you can purchase as a gag gift. Say we have 1 funny ball of each # (1-9). We have someone pick one of them out of a basket and replace it with the same #'d ball to be used in the next rack. Presto.... Excitement.

Just funnin here. If Shane has such a good break why punish him. Practice your #$%@# break and just maybe you will be able to beat him.

Mr Mike Dechaine you can cry all you want about the break, but you have the same opportunity to create a great break. It is called "practice". From what i am hearing you have chosen not to.

Case closed..

 

[CreeDo]

Thinking about it, we now have two very similar games, maybe it makes sense to truly make them different.

Instead of 10b being "basically 9b with a few problems fixed", 10b can be the game of runouts and packages,
and 9b can have the mandatory rollout or 2-foul rule making it a strategic game.

 

[jhanso18]

The funny thing I find here, unless there are pieces moving behind the scenes, is that Johnny says, "Lets play some this way." Mike responds, "Lets play this way for WHAT EVER YOU WANT!" Then Fatboy tosses out, "$100k, lets roll."

AND NOW...

Crickets...


On a side note, all you folks saying JA bested SVB, SVB beat MD, so JA should give MD weight if anything are crazy. I would bet JA doesn't like the idea of gambling with Shane a bunch. He pulled one down on Shane, but if they ever play again, Shane will still be the favorite over JA. That being said, I don't think Johnny is looking for a spot. (And who are we kidding, he doesn't need one.) I think he's looking to embarrass Mike, by taking away all the excuses.



The one thing that sticks out to me for all the folks that can't read between the lines, is how much disdain there is for Mike D. I know there are a of Dechaine haters and lovers out there. This thread shows me just how many bridges this kid has burned. I'm not a big fan of the kid in the first place. He should show some humbleness and maybe try and when some of the pool world over. You didn't see SVB barking at every guy holding a cue 5 years ago...


For the record, I like one of the two follow nick names for Mike.

Mike "The Mouth" Dechaine, or Mike "The Head" Dechaine LOL!


Just my thoughts from the side lines.

Justin

 

[JCIN]

I agree with someone getting rewarded for hard work and Shane has certainly done that and more. What I don't understand is the racking part of the equation. It would have been a bad joke to Mosconi, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak, Hopkins, and Greenleaf to rack their own balls in a match.

Why don't they have a neutral Referee, and why isn't this the normal way to play a match of any significance? I know there's 50 guys/ladies in Vegas that would do a great job of racking, why isn't there a referee that racks, calls fouls and over sees the match?

I'll tell you exactly why....because as soon as the balls didnt do exactly what the breaker wanted he would start b!tching that the ref was screwing him. If the breaker was making balls on the break and running out the other player would start b!tching saying the ref was screwing him.

All you have to do is look at the final few matches of the US Open every year where the ref's rack the balls to see that it causes as many problems as it solves.

If you had a trained midget unicorn rack the balls perfectly 100% of the time people would still complain. Its just the nature of the game and the people who play it.

As for the whole "take the break out of the game because I dont want to practice it"line of thinking I say "Whatever". If someone really thinks that is the answer then they should put their money where their mouth is and put on some matches with those rules to prove their point. I'll hold my breath.

 

[JCIN]

Go back to 4 1/8" pockets in the TAR room and use the wood rack (no magic rack). Do the same for tournaments.

Using Shane Van Boening as an example...

Shane is a great player, but opening up the pockets to 4 1/2" and using the 10-ball magic rack allows him to out-break his opponent instead of having to out-play them.

In other words, Shane's chances are improved against guys like Orcollo, Bustamante, etc. under the new TAR conditions (bigger pockets + magic rack) versus the old conditions.

And, FWIW, I think "The Action Report" was much better before it became a free roll for both players.

TAR would of been gone over a year ago if we didn't change formats.

People want pool to be more professional. Professionals get paid when they work. UFC fighters get paid when they fight win or lose. So does almost every other pro athlete.

Whats funny is that based on experience I know for a fact if we switched everything we did there would be as many or more people saying how the new way sucks. Which I suppose in the grand scheme of things is good. At least it means some people are paying attention.

 

[SakuJack]

TAR would of been gone over a year ago if we didn't change formats.

People want pool to be more professional. Professionals get paid when they work. UFC fighters get paid when they fight win or lose. So does almost every other pro athlete.

Whats funny is that based on experience I know for a fact if we switched everything we did there would be as many or more people saying how the new way sucks. Which I suppose in the grand scheme of things is good. At least it means some people are paying attention.

Good post. I'd also like to say that I've seen more drama (as in players getting worked up and games/losses getting to them) when they're both getting paid than when they were gambling.

Also, I'm assuming most of the players were never really betting their own anyway - they were being staked.

 

[JCIN]

Speaking for me personally I hate seeing guys bunt balls around. I like seeing top guys run out and be dynamic when playing rotation games. Anyone who like the moving aspect can play or watch one pocket. Thats the best game for that type of thing anyway.

Part of me wants to do a roll out after the break with the old school two shot roll out rules just to show what it really would look like. I am positive after it was over people would be saying "Well that sucked to watch." You would have a safety battle at the beginning or EVERY rack. Now put those rules on tight pockets. Your potential audience is now people over sixty with OCD and self masochistic tendencies. That will really bring those new viewers to the game.

Players need to understand and I mean really get the fact that when people are paying to watch you play a game it is not about what the players think makes it most even for them it is about what entertains the people paying the bills. Thats the fans by the way.

I make my living selling pro pool to people. I do more events than anyone else in the country. People who pay to watch to pro pool like watching pro's put balls in the pockets not kick them around and play hide and seek. This isnt an opinion. This is fact based off of experience.

For the record TAR 31 did about 20% better than TAR 30 PPV wise. I chalk that up to two reasons. One is Facebook and the other is going back to standard pockets so the guys can actually play pool like they do at every other pro event.

 

[nb92]

....

As for the whole "take the break out of the game because I dont want to practice it"line of thinking I say "Whatever". If someone really thinks that is the answer then they should put their money where their mouth is and put on some matches with those rules to prove their point. I'll hold my breath.

Justin I appreciate TAR ... thank you.... but as you have said (in some podcast) you have never watched a 9-ball (or 10-ball) match prior to the implementation of the Texas express rules... I would suggest going to the accu-stats archive and checking one out... the motivation was to speed up the game and make it more appealing to some potential TV deals in the offing...

A certain amount of skill was removed in the search for speed... If I was able to pull it off.. (which I have looked into and as you / Mark know the financials are not good .. to say the least) a tournament like the US Open 9-ball would be the old.. 2 foul push out, all balls spot, cue ball in hand behind the line on fouls after the break... It is never going to be a mainstream TV thing.. so build it for people that understand the game.... but "... checkers sells more the chess..."

 

[satman]

Personally

Johnny and I have talked about this very thing at the Mosconi Cup. It would be a much better way to play rotation games. The break in this day and age is 70% of the game and that means they're playing "7Ball" after the break (with the one ball close to the corner).

If you have a mandatory "Roll Out" after the break it means you have to "wrestle" for the first shot and that brings out the real skill in the game. imo

We talked about this a lot last week in the "derby city rack mechanics" thread and I believe it's a VERY IMPORTANT topic. If we ever want to bring back the pure excitement and strategy of pool it needs to be more than just a "break contest".

I don't wanna see 2 guys "wrestle" for the first shot, when playing 9 ball or 10 ball. If I wanna watch strategy for first shot, I'll watch one pocket. If I wanna watch banks, I'll watch a bank match. First off, for the rack mechanics, take the rack back out of their hands. Use a rack that don't allow for adjusting the balls, and maybe a neutral racker. Punishing the players who learn to break, is like telling a bank player, he ain't allowed to bank more than one ball in a rack. But, allowing someone to rack the balls how they want, then break them, is not the right way to go either..