Pool players studying 3C

[Andrew Manning]

You hear commentators mentioning Efren's 3-cushion abilities all the time, and how they contribute to his magical level of cue ball control. Similar comments are often made about Ga-Young Kim on the womens' side of things, and Jeannette Lee to some extent as well.

What I'm getting at is that it seems to be a no-brainer that 3C knowledge is a helpful thing to have while playing pool. Everyone seems to agree on this.

But do any of the top players spend any time studying the game, or do they ever compete at it? I never hear about it, besides Efren's (and Ga-Young's) past. Maybe some of you know other high-level pool players that also enjoy some 3C from time to time. If not, I wonder why not?

-Andrew

 

[kvinbrwr]

You hear commentators mentioning Efren's 3-cushion abilities all the time, and how they contribute to his magical level of cue ball control. Similar comments are often made about Ga-Young Kim on the womens' side of things, and Jeannette Lee to some extent as well.

What I'm getting at is that it seems to be a no-brainer that 3C knowledge is a helpful thing to have while playing pool. Everyone seems to agree on this.

But do any of the top players spend any time studying the game, or do they ever compete at it? I never hear about it, besides Efren's (and Ga-Young's) past. Maybe some of you know other high-level pool players that also enjoy some 3C from time to time. If not, I wonder why not?

-Andrew

Mike Dechaine plays pretty good 3-C (for a pool player).

 

[CreeDo]

Maybe some of you know other high-level pool players that also enjoy some 3C from time to time. If not, I wonder why not?

-Andrew

Maybe once they get into it, they ditch pool and never look back

Seriously, it's a beautiful game. A guy at Q-ball was a high level pool player a long time ago, got into 3C, and now you just seem him weekly, just practicing, occasionally playing vs. someone. He hasn't touched pool in like a decade.

The thing about it is, even if you learn some cool 3 rail kicks that might help in a pool table, those heated 3c tables play so different. Contrary to popular belief, a 3c diamond system can't be ported directly over to pool.

I do think some of the principles translate though. Like in 3C you often have a 'big ball' near a rail. You can subtly tweak your chosen route by using heavy spin and approaching from a an angle more parallel to that rail, to vastly improve your odds of hitting the ball. I can see this helping a player get a good hit in an otherwise difficult 2 or 3 rail kick in pool. Or you can use the extra spin idea to get your cue ball to more safely nestle into a safety area, or fall more easily into the correct area to play position in a window.

 

[Andrew Manning]

The thing about it is, even if you learn some cool 3 rail kicks that might help in a pool table, those heated 3c tables play so different. Contrary to popular belief, a 3c diamond system can't be ported directly over to pool.

That's absolutely true, but 3C is about so much more than a diamond system. I've heard 3C players mention that frequently when conditions aren't ideal they'll stop bothering to even count diamonds on their shots because there's so much adjustment that has to be done for the conditions that you might as well skip the system and go straight to the adjustments (which perforce are done by feel).

I guess I meant learning to feel the angle the CB will take off the OB with high precision, how much the path off the rail will change depending on the english you use, and how to use very heavy amounts of english to achieve paths that pool players might not think of (this is frequently what Efren does to get commentators to call him the Magician). More important than any of that I think is just the brain-training required to get a cue ball to travel a complex path and then hit a target no larger than itself; you have to learn to think of your CB control as something much more precise than pool players generally do.

-Andrew

 

[Quesports]

One of the things 3 cushion helps is understanding the track system. There is an area to hit on the 3rd ball in 3 cushion that is approximately 5 inches in width, that is the track you need to be on to score a point. The more you play 3 cushion the more you'll understand how to use it to kick at a ball. I get to Chris's every so often and feel lucky to have those nice heated tables to play on. Probably my favorite billiard game. NO BS and when you get lucky and score a point accidentally it's usually followed by a nod of apology.

 

[hang-the-9]

I watched Mazin Shooni play some pool and 3C, he's a 3C world class player. His position and pocketing in pool was low B level, his kicking was A level. His 3C shots were pretty much magic to me, spin and speed around the table was unreal.

I think any player that would like to advance their pool game with knowledge of spin and playing off rails should play some 3C. I know I will plan to try to learn a bit about the game at some point.

 

[sjm]

The billiard systems can all be studied on a pool table. The real value of three cushion is that it forces you to think about your angles with such care and for so long that it greatly improves your insitnctive sense of table geometry.

I think Efren's genius is as much about brilliant and innovative shot conceptualization as it is about advantageous use of billiard knowledge. In their respective primes, both Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson and Dallas West were better three cushion players than Efren, but neither was on a par with Efren in devising and executing brilliant shots involving rails.

Billiard knowledge is incredibly useful at the pool table, but kicking, multi-rail position paths, and multi-rail defensive paths involve a lot more than billiard knowledge. That's because great precision is required of you when it comes to the final position of the object ball far more often than in billiards.

Every pool player would derive great value from playing three cushion, which is perhaps the most elegant of all cuesports.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Mike Dechaine plays pretty good 3-C (for a pool player).

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Any other examples of current top players that have put in some time on a pocketless table? It seems like there should be.

-Andrew

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'd be curious to hear what Ira had to say but there was a time in NYC when many serious pool players were devoting some of their time to 3C. I think it was more popular when Sang Lee was with us.

As far as knowledge is concerned, 3C is entirely different. I can't speak for how 3C knowledge necessarily applies to pool but I will say it has more to do with just learning angles. 3C players can apply MASSIVE amounts of spin and do things pool players never think about. To put it best, it's an eye-opening experience and really is a display of the outer limits of what's possible. Yes, it can fine-tune what you already know but there's really a lot more in that game.

 

[TSW]

Pro pool players who pick up 3C do it more for the love of the game. A pro pool player would see more returns from spending hundreds of hours practicing his 10-ball break than from spending hundreds of hours learning 3C.

 

[Black-Balled]

...

Every pool player would derive great value from playing three cushion, which is perhaps the most elegant of all cuesports.

Great stuff...as always.

IMO- 3c is to pocket billiards, much the way figure skating is akin to hockey.

 

[Black-Balled]

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Any other examples of current top players that have put in some time on a pocketless table? It seems like there should be.

-Andrew

Harriman, McCreesh, Wilkie, Shuff, Chau...with Chau being the best of that list I M O

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Great stuff...as always.

IMO- 3c is to pocket billiards, much the way figure skating is akin to hockey.

That's a pretty good analogy.

 

[goldeagle2134]

No doubt in my mind that some 3C play will improve your pool game.

3C is a great game that everyone should spend some time at.

 

[tucson9ball]

You hear commentators mentioning Efren's 3-cushion abilities all the time, and how they contribute to his magical level of cue ball control. Similar comments are often made about Ga-Young Kim on the womens' side of things, and Jeannette Lee to some extent as well.

What I'm getting at is that it seems to be a no-brainer that 3C knowledge is a helpful thing to have while playing pool. Everyone seems to agree on this.

But do any of the top players spend any time studying the game, or do they ever compete at it? I never hear about it, besides Efren's (and Ga-Young's) past. Maybe some of you know other high-level pool players that also enjoy some 3C from time to time. If not, I wonder why not?

-Andrew

The knowledge is nice to have but......on a actual 3C table that is heated with heavier balls, the ball is still carrying english/spin after the 3rd rail. It's a little different than a pool table.
You will find that the 3 rail kicks on a pool table will be a shorter angle than a 3C table.

 

[macguy]

You hear commentators mentioning Efren's 3-cushion abilities all the time, and how they contribute to his magical level of cue ball control. Similar comments are often made about Ga-Young Kim on the womens' side of things, and Jeannette Lee to some extent as well.

What I'm getting at is that it seems to be a no-brainer that 3C knowledge is a helpful thing to have while playing pool. Everyone seems to agree on this.

But do any of the top players spend any time studying the game, or do they ever compete at it? I never hear about it, besides Efren's (and Ga-Young's) past. Maybe some of you know other high-level pool players that also enjoy some 3C from time to time. If not, I wonder why not?

-Andrew

I think you are making an assumption. I would say Efren probably played 3-c from the start of his playing history. Although billiards may have some learning that can cross over with pool, the biggest problem is the stroke. If you get on the average billiard table, not say one of the heated super speedy tables, and then try to go back to a pool table your game will be a bit messed up. If you are playing a lot of serious pool it may be a good idea to stay away from billiards.

Something interesting, pool players seem to have less problem playing billiards then billiards do playing pool. My wife used to beat Sang Lee playing 9-ball. It was amazing how bad he played pool. Although I have to add that Blumdhal plays jam up 9 ball, he even beat Efren in an exhibition. I didn't know how good Blumdhal played. I was practicing 9 ball and he asked if I wanted to play some. I just assumed he meant Billiards and started to walk over to the billiards table. Who in their right mind would not want to play Blumdahl billiards. He said know lets play pool. I was shocked how good he played.

 

[12squared]

David Matlock is a strong 3-c player and has been for many years and Mike Massey loves the game. There are several more current players that I've heard are playing 3-c, but since I don't know first hand I would feel funny mentioning names, sorry.

Yes, I agree that diamond systems and tracks can be taught and learned on a pool table, but what I think helps is the creativity that can go into each shot playing 3-c and learning that minor adjustments can make a huge difference. There are always multiple choices that should be considered. Add to this the exact hit on the cue that is necessary to score some shots (others are more forgiving). It really helps when playing 1-pocket trying to kick your way out of traps or getting creative when needed.

Dave

 

[allanpsand]

The benefit of playing 3-cushion is useful regardless of the larger table and balls. It is learning how to use tangent lines, cue ball spin and speed. It is understanding patterns across multiple rails and how those patterns narrow and widen.

Useful knowledge of 3-cushion makes kicking to any object ball child's play.

If you need to learn, find a table and a regular 3-cushion billiards player. They will be very happy to introduce you to the game along with pointing out common patterns. This hands-on experience gets you pointed in the right direction.

And you might find the intricate challenge sufficient to devote significant time to mastering this challenging game.

 

[Cdryden]

I got to play some when I was at Chris's Billiards in Chicago a couple of years ago. I really enjoyed it and wish I had more opportunities to play it.

Unfortunately finding a 3 cushion table in a small town is harder than finding good looking girl in the trailer park with all her teeth and isn't related to her brother in more ways than one.

 

[Johnnyt]

I come from Long Island, NY and had a pool room there. I had 9 old Brunswick's with one being a 3 cushion. In the 1960's 3 cushion was still pretty big in NY. I played more of it during the years I had the room than I played pool. If I had the time and health and a young player with natural ability I would have them play about 20% on a 3 cushion table for seeing angles, kicking and playing safe and learn the cool 2 and 3 on the same rail shots. I'd have him/her play 20% Snooker for the basics like stance, feet, line of aim, and shot making. Then 60% on the pool table. If you know how to play 3 cushion well you won't like jump cues in the pool game either. Learning 3 cushion early is a big boost to your pool game down the lie. Johnnyt