TAR Pros On Aim Systems & Jump Cues

Neil said:
Johnny, you and Justin seem to think that this somehow invalidates aiming systems. It doesn't. It only means that they don't use them... yet. They don't know what they don't know is all it means.

Busty said he has problems with a certain shot. Well....there are at least two aiming systems that would alleviate that problem in a couple of hours.

Alex stated that he uses different fundamentals at different times. He uses what works for him at the time. Maybe some of you should take a clue from HIS attitude... don't take "sides" on an issue, use what works for you.;) Just because some pros don't use something, does not equate to whether or not that something works or has merit.
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I didn't say aiming systems were no good here. I have bought two of them and at least 5 more DVD's that had an aiming system in them. I tried them all and always came back to feel. I'm sure they help some players. Every DVD I have that is not just aiming system I came away with something useful to me. This thread is just a small sample of the top pros that use or don't use them. If it were meant to be an Aim System basher I'd have put it in the aiming forum. Johnnyt
 
Neil said:
Forgive me if I took it wrong, but last night on the podcast chat, you sure seemed to take the attitude of "see, they don't use one" and implying that aiming systems are nonsense.

I totally agree that everyone sees things differently, and one has to find what works for them. And, that aiming systems are not a "magical bullet". Any system requires time at the table, and once properly learned, they become subconscious and may not even be noticed by anyone.

That said, you would be surprised how much aiming systems will help immediately with certain shots. Especially equal/opposite and 90/90 on shots where the cb and ob are close together. Like Busty, I too have trouble "seeing" those shots anymore. (age sucks sometimes) So, the E/O system doesn't always work for me unless I really study the shot. But....I can take that close shot, do the 90/90 on it, and fire it right in the hole. And, each time I do that, I can't help but say to myself "this system is so cool!" Don't even feel like I aimed it at all. Just did a couple simple steps, and fired the ball in!
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I have heard three or four aiming gurus and devotees over many years all say the same thing "Its what the Filipinos use...."

So when Busty was all "Feel" it struck me funny. For a long time it was a really safe thing to say because the vast majority of people would never have a chance to ask any of them. Not the case anymore.
 
There are only two things that a pro can do that a "regular" player can't as well in order to pocket balls.

Correctly see the reality on the table of where the contact point is, meaning what their eyes and brain puts together of the image matches what is actually there.

Be able to have a stroke that sends the cueball correctly there.

Without those 2, you can try to use any aiming system you want, you won't be making balls good enough to be even a B level player.
 
JCIN said:
I have heard three or four aiming gurus and devotees over many years all say the same thing "Its what the Filipinos use...."

So when Busty was all "Feel" it struck me funny. For a long time it was a really safe thing to say because the vast majority of people would never have a chance to ask any of them. Not the case anymore.
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That's exactly how I felt. You have guys putting out information for years claiming all the Filipinos use "this diamond kicking system", or "that pivot aiming system". Now we hear it from the horses mouth and its all BS.
 
JCIN said:
I have heard three or four aiming gurus and devotees over many years all say the same thing "Its what the Filipinos use...."

So when Busty was all "Feel" it struck me funny. For a long time it was a really safe thing to say because the vast majority of people would never have a chance to ask any of them. Not the case anymore.
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OK, I see where you are coming from. IF I recall correctly, seems like Ron Vitello has said that he studied the top players, especially the Filipinos, and devised his system from what he learned watching them. That system would be 90/90.

Keep in mind that that does not mean that they use 90/90. Ron took what they had in common, and then went from that. In reality, they may very well be using a form of 90/90 without the "steps" that Ron found without even realizing just what they are doing. They obviously have to be doing something. "Feel" is just a word to describe for when your brain says "that's right". You have to have done something consistent for your brain to "feel" if it's correct or not.
 
If ten average pros say they use no system, but shane says he does,
does that mean aiming systems are mostly dumb, and shane's just a fluke?
Does it mean average pros don't use them, but top pros like shane do?

Seems to me if the best USA player (and probably top 5 in the world) says he uses one,
you'd be very shortsighted to say "well, 14 other guys don't, so looks like I should give up on them."

With an open mind you have two potential routes to improvement: hit a million balls or a system.
With a closed mind, you have only one route: hit a million balls.
Doesn't make much sense, considering you can at least TRY most of them for free.

As for jump cues, they're not going away any time soon. Even if 200 pros claim they hate them.
Might as well complain about taxes and the weather.
 
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CreeDo said:
If ten average pros say they use no system, but shane says he does,
does that mean aiming systems are mostly dumb, and shane's just a fluke?
Does it mean average pros don't use them, but top pros like shane do?

Seems to me if the best USA player (and probably top 5 in the world) says he uses one,
you'd be very shortsighted to say "well, 14 other guys don't, so looks like I should give up on them."

With an open mind you have two potential routes to improvement: hit a million balls or a system.
With a closed mind, you have only one route: hit a million balls.
Doesn't make much sense, considering you can at least TRY most of them for free.

As for jump cues, they're not going away any time soon. Even if 200 pros claim they hate them.
Might as well complain about taxes and the weather.
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You should buy the TAR shane aiming video on vimeo. After watching that, I don't think there is anyone that will agree that what Shane does is anything like what the aiming system gurus advocate. He's just putting a picture to what works. And its different for every cut angle. And its different for every type of cue shaft. ANd its different for every type of spin he uses. That sure sounds like feel to me...
 
Johnnyt said:
I'm not really keeping score but it seems to be going about 1 out of 14 don't use a system...they use feel and a lot of practice
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As normal, your post confuses me.

You say: "1 out of 14 don't use a system... they use feel..." Who's they? the one that doesn't use a system?

People are responding as if you are saying "13 out of 14 don't use a system." But you've actually written that 13 out of 14 DO use a system.

Please un-confuse me on your post and your position.

Freddie
 
iusedtoberich said:
That's exactly how I felt. You have guys putting out information for years claiming all the Filipinos use "this diamond kicking system", or "that pivot aiming system". Now we hear it from the horses mouth and its all BS.
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My door is open for Busty or for any TAR player to see what I teach and then call it BS.....that will not happen, though, if they are true to what they see and experience.

Busty has shared his aiming with others that could add to what was said on TAR.

The GB9 tour in Europe recently got a double dose of a system you call BS. BS was not a phrase that was used to describe the play of the young man that systematically used CTE PRO ONE in taking down 2 very strong fields.

Enjoy calling it BS while you still can. The day is coming when that will not be the case....

Stan Shuffett
 
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stan shuffett said:
My door is open for Busty or for any TAR player to see what I teach and then call it BS.....that will not happen, though, if they are true to what they see and experience.

Busty has shared his aiming with others that could add to what was said on TAR.

The GB9 tour in Europe recently got a double dose of a system you call BS. BS was not a phrase that was used to describe the play of the young man that systematically used CTE PRO ONE in taking down 2 very strong fields.

Enjoy calling it BS while you still can. The day is coming when that will not be the case....

Stan Shuffett
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You misread my post.

Its BS claiming all these Fillipino players use such and such aiming system. Now we have proof they dont. Thats whats BS.

I never said your system was BS. I said claiming the Filipionos use xyz systme (not picking on yours only) is BS.

For the record, I obviously don't believe in aiming systems. But I'm not calling them BS, cause I'm sure they help some. But claiming most top pros and furthermore most filipino uses an aiming system is 100% BS.
 
CreeDo said:
If ten average pros say they use no system, but shane says he does,
does that mean aiming systems are mostly dumb, and shane's just a fluke?
Does it mean average pros don't use them, but top pros like shane do?

Seems to me if the best USA player (and probably top 5 in the world) says he uses one,
you'd be very shortsighted to say "well, 14 other guys don't, so looks like I should give up on them."

With an open mind you have two potential routes to improvement: hit a million balls or a system.
With a closed mind, you have only one route: hit a million balls.
Doesn't make much sense, considering you can at least TRY most of them for free.

As for jump cues, they're not going away any time soon. Even if 200 pros claim they hate them.
Might as well complain about taxes and the weather.
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No you are right about the jump cues. They are not going away any time soon. Too much money to be made on them. I'd like to know how many cuemaker's and billiard supply houses were on the board of the BCA and the WPA. Johnnyt
 
And in particular, Busty has been the poster child explicitly for CTE systems for 10 years on these forums. Now you hear straight from HIS mouth he doesn't use a system.
 
iusedtoberich said:
You misread my post.

Its BS claiming all these Fillipino players use such and such aiming system. Now we have proof they dont. Thats whats BS.

I never said your system was BS. I said claiming the Filipionos use xyz systme (not picking on yours only) is BS.

For the record, I obviously don't believe in aiming systems. But I'm not calling them BS, cause I'm sure they help some. But claiming most top pros and furthermore most filipino uses an aiming system is 100% BS.
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I wouldn't say BS at all about Filipinos and other pro players using a said system. There's a lot to it and it will all be known one day.

Thanks for your further thoughts and clarification.

Stan Shuffett
 
Cornerman said:
As normal, your post confuses me.

You say: "1 out of 14 don't use a system... they use feel..." Who's they? the one that doesn't use a system?

People are responding as if you are saying "13 out of 14 don't use a system." But you've actually written that 13 out of 14 DO use a system.

Please un-confuse me on your post and your position.

Freddie
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LOL, you are right I changed it. Please give me a break...I'm 72...I think. Johnnyt
 
CJ Wiley said:
By the definition of the word it would be safe to say ever pro has "something to look at". To play a pool shot the way you intend you must have a system, there's no way around it, and it must be visual, then it can become more kinesthetic at a later time, just not completely. Just because a person does something by routine and it's natural doesn't mean the routine isn't a system, it definitely is.

We even use a system to walk around the table and chalk our cues. :)

"System" means "something to look at". You must have a very high visual gradient to have systematization. In philosophy, before Descartes, there was no "system". Plato had no "system". Aristotle had no "system". (Marshall McLuhan in: McLuhan: Hot & Cool. Ed. by Gerald Emanuel Stearn. A Signet Book published by The New American Library, New York, 1967, p. 288). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System
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Perhaps the best post to date from CJ. It is absurd to believe Professionals don't use a system. Consider this. If everything they do is purely by feel, they would NEVER stop and hesitate before taking a shot. If it is all by feel, there is nothing to consider, you just look and shoot. The reality is, the Professionals are simply so incredibly good, they run through their "system checks" in near auto mode on the majority of their shots.

Look at Stevie Moore, Landon and Stan Shuffett. If you weren't aware of CTE/Pro One, you'd never know these guys are using a system, it looks very automatic. If you think not, watch the video of Stan running 100+ balls or whatever it was at 14.1.
 
an aiming system is supposed to be used until you get to a point where every shot is second nature. It becomes automatic.

The pros are pros because they put the time in and it is not automatic.
 
Feudian Slip? Is this like missing a ball with or without a system?

Cornerman said:
As normal, your post confuses me.

You say: "1 out of 14 don't use a system... they use feel..." Who's they? the one that doesn't use a system?

People are responding as if you are saying "13 out of 14 don't use a system." But you've actually written that 13 out of 14 DO use a system.

Please un-confuse me on your post and your position.

Freddie
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Feudian Slip? Is this like missing a ball with or without a system? ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip

A Freudian slip, also called parapraxis, is an error in speech, memory, or physical action that is interpreted as occurring due to the interference of some unconscious ("dynamically repressed") subdued wish, conflict, or train of thought guided by the super-ego and the rules of correct behaviour. They reveal a "source outside the speech". The concept is thus part of classical psychoanalysis.

Slips of the tongue and the pen are the classical parapraxes, but psychoanalytic theory also embraces such phenomena as misreadings, mishearings, temporary forgettings, and the mislaying and losing of objects.
 
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